Ernie5 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Coles only had one 1,000 yard season before Snyder offered a 13 million standard bonus with no need to negotiate. Yes, He overpaid. Because it was quite obvious to everyone that Coles would've accepted less. Yes, he would have accepted less, which is what he would have gotten from the Jets and he'd still be there. Part of the impetus behind making an offer like that is to guarantee that it'll scare away his current team. It did. Thus, we didn't overpay. If we very very slightly overpaid for Thomas, it was, in large part, to make sure he didn't do the NFL tour b/c he was a perfect need fit for us. Again, brilliant work and not really an overpay. The more people complain about Champ leaving, the happier I am to see him go. There's probably a mathematical equation in there somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Ernie5 The more people complain about Champ leaving, the happier I am to see him go. There's probably a mathematical equation in there somewhere. :laugh: Look I have said this before and will say it again. The FO had a plan in regarding Champ and Lavar, they have decided Lavar is the main person on the defense and paid as such. The didn't think or wanted to get the team in cap trouble by offerering Bailey a similar deal. They had a number, and a good one and stuck with it but Bailey wanted more. The only way Bailey is on this team next year is if he takes the contract they offered, or he will be traded. It isn't smart to have 2 guys on the defense being the highest paid at their positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Agreed, jbooma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Ernie5 [Yes, he would have accepted less, which is what he would have gotten from the Jets and he'd still be there. Part of the impetus behind making an offer like that is to guarantee that it'll scare away his current team. It did. Thus, we didn't overpay. If we very very slightly overpaid for Thomas, it was, in large part, to make sure he didn't do the NFL tour b/c he was a perfect need fit for us. Again, brilliant work and not really an overpay. The more people complain about Champ leaving, the happier I am to see him go. There's probably a mathematical equation in there somewhere. Sounds like Champ hating if you're happy to see a guy who's been our best defensive player by far go to another team. Just IMO. I believe they could've gone a bit lower on Coles and still scared the Jets away. It was obvious Bradway didn't have a clue ANY team thought he was worth that much. If he did, he would've tendered an offer that would've been only slightly more and forced any team to give up a first rounder for him. A 9 or 10 million signing bonus, maybe even 8 would've got it done. 13 million, although he's worth it, was way more than ANYONE expected. Including Coles' agent, who's job is to inflate the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdaddy Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Snyder should covet other teams players, how many studs does he have of his own? However, Snyder is no longer running the show as far as who stays and who goes. Bailey is great but what has that done for us in the past. If he doesn't like the offer made to him then good luck on the open market. We've got too many other needs to spend that 50+ million on. I don't blame the Skins for shopping him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankbones Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by fansince62 ...without taking sides...there sure seems to be a lot of "there's a lot of other cbs" who can fill the bill chatter on the board. I don't buy that one iota. that's all conjecture and pie in the sky wishful thinking also. Not to try to sell you any iota's or anything, but I disagree with you. You say there are no other CB's available that can compare to Champ. While that may or may not be correct, I would speculate that the dropoff in talent is not all that great and would come at a cheaper price. I would say that Antoine Winfield, Ahmed Plummer, Shawn Springs, Vincent and Taylor, and Charles Woodson are in the top-tier of free agent CB's this year. In addition to one of these guys we would also have additional draft picks for this upcoming draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OURYEAR#56 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 In the case of LaVar I think the Redskins followed a growing trend in the NFL to pay LB's a large sum of money, making them the cornerstone of the defense. You see it in with the Bears and Urlacher plus the Ravens with Ray Lewis. I feel LaVar has proven he's worth his contract. He's made big plays, had 11 sacks, and interceptions. And did I mention he got a thick neck that makes him hit like a Mack Truck. If Bailey is traded, LaVar will be the undisputed leader on defense. I can't wait to see that. I hate to see Bailey go but he's trying to break the bank. He sees himself as Deion Sanders and he might be right...well he can't return kicks or play both ways so he falls short of being Deion. Either way he's not worth a 20 million dollar signing bonus. Champ thinks he's A Rod, we have to ask ourselves do we want to be the football version of the Texas Rangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by OURYEAR#56 I hate to see Bailey go but he's trying to break the bank. He sees himself as Deion Sanders and he might be right...well he can't return kicks or play both ways so he falls short of being Deion. Either way he's not worth a 20 million dollar signing bonus. Champ thinks he's A Rod, we have to ask ourselves do we want to be the football version of the Texas Rangers. OY that is the best post you have made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinker Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 People should be careful when comparing how we dealt with LaVar and Champ. This is business - not high school dating. Even if we put public statements, team leadership, fan identification, impact on the field, character issues, etc. aside these are two players in very different situations. Here's the fundamental difference in business and monetary terms: Champ's contract is up, LaVar had a number of years to go on his contract and because of past restructurings and escalators had unbearable cap numbers in the next several years. LaVar had infinitely more negotiating power than Champ because if he did nothing he was going to be getting $10 million per year under the cap. The Skins HAD to give him a deal that would allow us to keep him. He also couldn't be traded or cut because of his contract and cap ramifications. Even franchised, Champ would be almost $4 million cheaper than LaVar under his old contract. Champ is just in a different situation, we don't have to pay as huge of a price for him because we can a) probably trade him for good value not have any negative cap impact if he leaves, and c) franchise him for $6.8 million and swallow that better than we could a deal that could kill us for years down the road. The bottom line is that they got treated differently because they were in different situations in terms of the strength of their negotiating position vs. the FO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by thinker The bottom line is that they got treated differently because they were in different situations in terms of the strength of their negotiating position vs. the FO. Yes but they also couldn't afford to have two monster contracts on the same team from the defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Gamebreaker I believe they could've gone a bit lower on Coles and still scared the Jets away. It was obvious Bradway didn't have a clue ANY team thought he was worth that much. If he did, he would've tendered an offer that would've been only slightly more and forced any team to give up a first rounder for him. A 9 or 10 million signing bonus, maybe even 8 would've got it done. 13 million, although he's worth it, was way more than ANYONE expected. Including Coles' agent, who's job is to inflate the price. Sorry, GB, but that's just nonsense. In that situation, you don't guess at a figure. Price had just gotten $10-11M from Atlanta, so it stands to reason that Coles was in that neighborhood. The Redskins had to exceed that figure in no uncertain terms. They had one shot at it, there wasn't going to be a give and take situation - remember, the Jets only had to match it, not start a bidding process. The Redskins had to put a figure on that contract that would stop the Jets cold. The Jets would have unquestionably matched $10-11M. They may have blanched at $12M, but still ponied up. $13M was a choker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Oldskool Map, seriously... When you start negotiating with both Arrington and Bailey at the same time, and you offer them both very very good deals and one turns you down and the other doesnt, who's disrespecting who then? Bailey has twice (that we know of) been offered blockbuster deals for a corner and has turned us down each and every time. He and his agent have been playing hard ball with us since the beginning. One thing that the fans have to understand is that the team>individual players. Let me emphasize that Bailey hasn't given a counteroffer on either one of the offers we have given him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidPennSkin Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by SkinsFanMania Let me emphasize that Bailey hasn't given a counteroffer on either one of the offers we have given him. Yes, that's what is strange about this whole deal. If Champ wanted to stay but just wanted more money, he would have made us a counteroffer. No one starts negotiations by putting out their mimimum offer, you always start with a contract that is somewhat favorable to your interests. There was and still is nothing stopping Champ from making us an offer that he would accept. So far, the team has no idea what he wants or would take. To me, the lack of a counteroffer indicates that Champ either: 1. was totally insulted by the offer and feels like we are "disrespecting" him, and/or 2. just doesn't want to play for the Skins at any price, or 3. doesn't have a clue as to what kind of a contract he can get elsewhere. If it is number 1, then he needs to grow up and realize that this is a business, and make a counteroffer, however inflated. If number 2, then there is nothing the team can do other than franchise him and hope someone takes him. If number 3, then the present situation will determine what his worth to other teams is. I think it may be a combination of number one and three. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redblazer00 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I put more blame on Champ then Snyder I mean if I was offered a deal 55 million and 14+ in bonus money I wouldn't care how that got paid to me as long as it got to my bank account. Players now in days tend to care more about money then being a team player and reaching a team goal. It really sickens me to see contract offers like that turned down and if it was it had to be for a reason! Maybe he is not a Redskin he is a NFL player after money. I don't want Players that don't want to be Redskins on our team and the more I view the Champ situation the more I think he isn't a Redskin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Master Jay Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Why does Champs SB have to be tiered down while everyone else gets his money immediately?? Redblazer00 if you worked for a man for 5 years and didn't miss a day and I came in and doubled your pay. You wouldn't like it when it comes time for your raise and you get low balled. Champ wants what every FA we have signed has gotten respect and up front money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyG3 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 If Wookies living on Endor makes no sense, then you must acquit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggins Seventy Chip Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 "Coles only had one 1,000 yard season before Snyder offered a 13 million standard bonus with no need to negotiate. Yes, He overpaid. Because it was quite obvious to everyone that Coles would've accepted less. Overpaying for someone doesn't anything to do with paying for their value, it's offering more than what they'll take. THomas, Morton, and Hall would've accepted less to come here. Especially Coles, who was so surprised about the amount of money he yelled at his agent,"What are you talking to me for? Accept it before he changes his mind!" Correct, and at that time, Cerrato and Snyder were stating that this would not affect the contracts for Lavar and Champ. Well, with the cap room that we could have saved with more moderate contracts for those players, we could offer Champ a much better deal. "Does Snyder live by the "grass is greener" philosophy? It seems very possible by the contract he offered Champ. " "I think Snyder has "his" players, Lavar and Bruce Smith were one of those. And he treats them quite handsomely, everyone else doesn't get as many perks." Snyder does treat HIS players differently. I'll say it again: Champ is better at his position then Lavar is at LB. I would consider Champ Bailey in the top 1 or 2 CB's in the league. Lavar has shown promise but not been consistent enough. REGARDLESS, if you have TWO TOP TALENTS at CB and LB, you give them both fair deals. I want to see the Skins offer Champ a contract equal to the one that Lavar signed. Also, the argument that "Champ has been here and the team has still lost" is silly. Why don't we just cut all of our high-priced players then, if they haven't won here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggins Seventy Chip Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Master Jay Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Very well put RSC will need to pay this man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redblazer00 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 We did offer Champ a contract and he did turn it down so he was in the plans he just didn't want to be in the plans. Or he would have taken the 55 million and 14+ million of bonus. LaVar wants to be a Skin Champ doesn't is the only difference between the two situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sire Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 If you look at the deals, Arrington got the better one. Now, I really like Arrington as a player and as a Redskin, but Champ is unquestionably better at his position than Arrington is at his. Also, in response to the lack of interceptions for Champ, D Green also didn't have that many INT's per year, because, like Champ, teams throw away from the shut-down corner. Well said. Though this will upset the Lavar lovers. Lavar is a very good linebacker. Champ is a great corner. Save Champ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I agree that Bailey is a better player at this point. Arrington has as much physical ability but lacks the discipline and sophistication to his game that Champ exhibits. BUT, Arrington was the first one to the table to impress on the Redskins that he wanted to stay here and was willing to negotiate in earnest. Bailey has been cool about first extending his deal in 2002 and then in working to avoid the imposition of the franchise tag. The Redskins made an offer Champ didn't like. Fine, then propose something else. I haven't seen any indication that Champ's side has ever made a counter offer of consequence. The other factor is based on the relative weight and flexibility of the contracts, Arringtons' and Samuels' were more important for the Redskins to ameliorate under the cap And that is an important consideration if ultimately the breathing space from LaVar's restructuring and a Champ trade facilitates the entry of veteran players at critical spots at DL, QB and RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Oldskool Map, seriously... When you start negotiating with both Arrington and Bailey at the same time, and you offer them both very very good deals and one turns you down and the other doesnt, who's disrespecting who then? Bailey has twice (that we know of) been offered blockbuster deals for a corner and has turned us down each and every time. He and his agent have been playing hard ball with us since the beginning. One thing that the fans have to understand is that the team>individual players. I really don't want Champ to go, but if doens't want to be here then i'm perfectly fine with that. It doesn't matter the money, his talent, his popularity, none of that matters. Team>individual, and if he doesn't understand that then so be it. I've read several times tho, that its not the overall money in general that he's upset about, It's the incentivies and the fact that not only would he not get his SB all at once, but the he would get a lil money here and then a be a huge hit against the cap in a few years. That's y stephen davis isn't here by the way. Were goin to have +$14 mill in free space this coming FA period, and the only reason we don't have $21 mill is because we already franchised Champ. He's the best overall corner in the leauge, and if he's gone we can't upgrade or even find someone to match that talent level. But that doens't mean we really have to either. Look at the Panthers this year, with their Powder Blue Recking Crew. Their d-line alone made that defense great, because besides the players on the line who can u name? No one, cuz if U can get at the QB with out blitzing and smash the run with 4 men alone, u don't really need any pro-bowl players to back them up. It helped create Turnovers, especially in the playoffs for the panthers, and without that line would leave that defense far more pitiful then ours. Moral of story, case and point: Panthers went to the super bowl, but they didn't have champ. I bet u a million dollars that the contract that Champ turned down Woodson and McCallister would take it in a heart beat. They about as close as u can get to matching the talent level, but the question is that with a possible two high first and second rounders and Smoot coming into his prime, do we really need 'em? ----------------------------------------- 0-16, 19-0, skins fan till i die!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggins Seventy Chip Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 Where did you get that 21 million under the cap figure from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Riggins Seventy Chip Where did you get that 21 million under the cap figure from? Bruce gone, that's about 4 mill gone. 4 mill. Salary cap goes up to $80. $12 mill. We cut a few people and restructuring Samuels contract, between 4 to 6 mill or more. $16 mill. And Champs franchise money, $6.8 mill. Grand total, $23 mill. I said $21 because if i was wrong i knew it would be more then i predicted. See, we got money, and were gonna use it in whatever way neccessary to make us a Championship team. That's with or without champ. ------------------------------------ 0-16, 19-0, skins fan till i die!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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