Riggins Seventy Chip Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Does it bother anyone else that last summer when Snyder went on his shopping spree, he overpaid for Coles, Thomas, and Morton, and as a result, Champ Bailey may be traded to "free up cap space"? As I remember, this was brought up at the time and the consensus was that the Skins could sign everyone and still have room for Bailey and Arrington. Now that looks like magical thinking. I also think that if the situation were reversed and Champ Bailey played for the Lions and was on the trading block right now, Snyder would be flying to Detroit to offer a package for Bailey with an inflated offer so that no one else could compete for his services. Snyder's problem is that he doesn't value what he has already on his team. If the money they save if they trade Bailey goes to Warren Sapp and Jevon Kearse, I will be sick. Sapp is a shell of his former self and is an a-hole and Kearse hasn't played to his potential since his injuries a few years ago. I know this is a lot to say, but I had to get this off my chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Jumbo Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I think we'll get EITHER Sapp or Kearse, not both. There are plenty of younger and cheaper guys out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSkins Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Snyder is a "grass is greener" kind of guy, so of course he'd be going after Champ. Nonetheless, I don't see why everyone wants Bailey gone so fast anyway, and for Winfield to replace him. In Mort's last internet chat, he talked about how Winfield is asking far too much and isn't making enough big plays, with, I think he said 6 INTs in his career. Now, isn't that the same sort of thing that everyone has been saying about Bailey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 yes it does it is called $$$$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Riggins, I'm not so bothered by the contracts paid out last year as I am by the emphasis that's been put on overpaying Mark Brunnell when the team has known all year they would have to deal with Champ. If I were Champ I'd be pissed too. The team has shown him very little respect thus far, and rather than investing the time and money into keeping a defensive cornerstone the team drafted five years ago, they have put all their energies into pursuiing an aging, expensive qb to 'compete' with their young, promising qb. I don't like it and I don't blame Champ one bit for wanting out of dodge, Gibbs or no Gibbs, things don't seem to have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by MAPTASTIC If I were Champ I'd be pissed too. The team has shown him very little respect thus far, and rather than investing the time and money into keeping a defensive cornerstone the team drafted five years ago, they have put all their energies into pursuiing an aging, expensive qb to 'compete' with their young, promising qb. Map, seriously... When you start negotiating with both Arrington and Bailey at the same time, and you offer them both very very good deals and one turns you down and the other doesnt, who's disrespecting who then? Bailey has twice (that we know of) been offered blockbuster deals for a corner and has turned us down each and every time. He and his agent have been playing hard ball with us since the beginning. One thing that the fans have to understand is that the team>individual players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I didn't realize Bailey was being traded to free up cap space. One, there is nothing definite about him being traded. He is being allowed to shop around to see what other deals he can get. Then the Redskins can determine if that team will come up with suitable compensation. Two, he is being allowed to shop around because the two sides can't agree on a deal, not because he is unaffordable. A side benefit of trading him could be that the team would have more cap flexibility. I don't think that is the concern here. You could be right about Snyder coveting other players more than his own. Hey, familiarity breeds contempt. With these players, the team has been mediocre. Why would he open the coffers to retain them, especially one such as Bailey who has displayed such tepid interest about staying with the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 This all comes down to what each of us considers "paying too much" for Champ. I think most agree he's a damn good corner. I think where the disagreement comes in is whether or not he is worth being the highest-paid corner in the history of the game ... which is what I get the sense he thinks he'd entitled to. Personally, I'd like to see the Skins keep the guy -- you can't have too many good players. But you CAN "overpay" for one. And I think paying this particular player historic money at this point would be a case of overpaying in this instance, regardless of where else the team was spending its cap dollars. Seriously ... how much it "too much?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggins Seventy Chip Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 If you look at the deals, Arrington got the better one. Now, I really like Arrington as a player and as a Redskin, but Champ is unquestionably better at his position than Arrington is at his. Also, in response to the lack of interceptions for Champ, D Green also didn't have that many INT's per year, because, like Champ, teams throw away from the shut-down corner. I think the bonus being talked about for Brunnell is inflated also, but so were the contracts last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidPennSkin Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Riggins Seventy Chip Does it bother anyone else that last summer when Snyder went on his shopping spree, he overpaid for Coles, Thomas, and Morton, and as a result, Champ Bailey may be traded to "free up cap space"? We're not trying to trade him to "free up cap space." We are doing it because he isn't worth what he is asking. We can handle the cap with or without Bailey. The problem is we have to get the most bang for the buck, and with Bailey, you don't get enough bang for the bucks he wants. Simple as that. Sure he's good, he's just not THAT good. I'm happy to see Snyder being more frugal with his money. He is learning how to play the game. He let Gardener go last year rather than pay him what he wanted, and that worked out just fine. I think we got our money's worth with Coles, Thomas and Hall, and perhaps with Morton also. Those guys are pros, and they will be here after Gibbs is done cleaning out the deadwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog Fever Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 First off Chip I understand your frustration, but I have to disagree a bit on a couple things. First off when we acquired the players from the Jets last year I feel we paid fair market value for them. Coles made the pro-bowl, Thomas was arguably our best lineman last year, Morton was decent and Hall was solid. I’d argue that we needed players in all of those positions except maybe Morton (who I like a lot as a 3rd down back and a PR). More to your point you seem to be suggesting that since in your opinion we overpaid for Coles, Thomas and Morton we should be willing to overpay for Champ. Either that or you think that because we signed those players that we now don’t have the money for Champ, which isn’t true. We “could “sign Champ now if we were willing to give him what he is asking. In the end I honestly don’t think Champ wants to be here or he would have already worked something out. Has Champ been so important to the team that it would be worth keeping him at the cost of not getting a decent free agent DT and DE? Is he so much better than any other available CB that he simply cannot be replaced with someone competent at a much lower price? You have to ask those tough questions and be honest. If you have answered “yes” to both of the above questions then we will have to agree to disagree and move on. I agree that we should pass on Sapp and Kearse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcees4life Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I hope the Skins will shock everyone and resign Bailey to a long-term deal. I just can't picture him in a different uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsGuy Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 The problem, mcees4life, is that Bailey seems to be picturing HIMSELF in a different uniform. There has been talk that Bailey wants to play in Detroit (with his brother Boss) or in Atlanta (his home is in Georgia). The most ridiculous thing I have read on this forum in the last several days is that, somehow the Redskins are "disrespecting" Bailey. How? The Redskins have offered him a contract (twice now) that would've have made him the highest paid CB in the game. They've routinely said they WANT him on the team and that he is one of the best CBs in the game. Thats respect. Bailey's reaction? He turned it down. Not only did he turn down ALL that money, he acted as he had been insulted. Like the Redskins were offering him $5.00 an hour to play football. Like most others, I want Bailey on this team. I want him to stay a Redskin. But I think the Redskins have been plenty fair and respectable to him. Its Bailey who is being unreasonable. Hes a d@mn fine defensive player. But hes not a game changer like Ray Lewis... and hes not a dominator like say... Bruce Smith or Lawerence Taylor were in thier prime. He doesn't deserve that kind of money. But if thats all he cares about (money and chest thumping that hes the defensive player with the biggest contract), then I say let him go. There are plenty of other CBs that are in FA this off season that are outstanding and are more like Joe Gibbs-type guys that will work better for us. Skins Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog Fever Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Well said Skins guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzSkinsFan63 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I think 55 million over what? 5 or even 7 years and a 14 mil signing bonus is a pretty darn good deal... too bad champ doesn't want to stay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 ...without taking sides...there sure seems to be a lot of "there's a lot of other cbs" who can fill the bill chatter on the board. I don't buy that one iota. that's all conjecture and pie in the sky wishful thinking also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Skinsguy hit the nail on the head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 hmmmm....awfully big head on that particular nail...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Honestly I don't think the plan is to trade him. I would think that we are just waiting to see what the best offer is so we can match it. I highly doubt any team would break the bank by offering a deal that's out of our range. I don't think that Champ was unhappy with the amount of the contract so much as how it was structured. I also don't think Champ has ever said directly that he'd rather play elswhere. I do remember quotes where he says things like "we gotta believe we can win to turn things around". Something to that effect anyway. He wants to win, and he wants what is in his, and his agents mind, a good contract. You better believe that his agent is the one telling Champ how much he should be getting. It's not Bailey's ego setting the price. I would also think that playing alongside his brother is not as important to him as would be going to the playoffs, or possibly to the SB in the next couple of years. On that point I may be wrong, but I don't see the Lions as a threat to go to the playoffs anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 good post arm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Oldskool Map, seriously... When you start negotiating with both Arrington and Bailey at the same time, and you offer them both very very good deals and one turns you down and the other doesnt, who's disrespecting who then? Bailey has twice (that we know of) been offered blockbuster deals for a corner and has turned us down each and every time. He and his agent have been playing hard ball with us since the beginning. One thing that the fans have to understand is that the team>individual players. Are you still singing this sad song and dance? I proved that wrong on a thread a few days ago, you told me I was crazy and I dared you to prove me wrong. I'm still waiting for the answer. Lavar got a more than fair deal, Champ didn't. It was misleading, and insulting that the Skins would go to the media and not tell the whole story. Knowing people like you would believe whatever that comes out of the press. Tell me, are you champ bashers really interested in the truth? Or are you only interested in bashing the players you don't like? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Nope doesnt bother me because if champ accepted the original offer he'd have more money than the best WR we've had here since the fun bunch. If he is traded I won't shed any tears. Why? Because its about time the coach runs the team and not players with untradeable contracts. And we have lost with him we can lose without him but of course I see us winning. Drink the Tap water and believe in gibbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog Fever Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by fansince62 ...without taking sides...there sure seems to be a lot of "there's a lot of other cbs" who can fill the bill chatter on the board. I don't buy that one iota. that's all conjecture and pie in the sky wishful thinking also. Well, just for the sake of argument let’s say that Champ is the best CB in the NFL. What is the difference between the best and the 20th best guy? How much is that worth to the team? Will it translate directly into wins? It would be a bad argument to say that we could sign a guy as good as Champ right off the street but we will have some decent free agent options. That isn’t conjecture. You don’t need to look any farther that the list of available free agents. I’ve maintained for a long time that a great secondary cannot make up for a lousy pass rush. You can’t expect any CB to stay with a NFL caliber receiver but for so long. However a great pass rush can make an average secondary look great. At this point I don’t care if Champ stays or goes. I can’t see how we are big losers either way. If Champ staying is going to be some sort of distraction with a lengthy hold out or some other crap I’d rather see him move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by SkinsGuy The problem, mcees4life, is that Bailey seems to be picturing HIMSELF in a different uniform. There has been talk that Bailey wants to play in Detroit (with his brother Boss) or in Atlanta (his home is in Georgia). The most ridiculous thing I have read on this forum in the last several days is that, somehow the Redskins are "disrespecting" Bailey. How? The Redskins have offered him a contract (twice now) that would've have made him the highest paid CB in the game. They've routinely said they WANT him on the team and that he is one of the best CBs in the game. Thats respect. Bailey's reaction? He turned it down. Not only did he turn down ALL that money, he acted as he had been insulted. Like the Redskins were offering him $5.00 an hour to play football. Skins Guy Maybe, if he was insulted. Then the offer didn't look as lucrative as it seems. This is what I've been saying for days, but I see plenty of people either haven't seen my posts, or continue to be thick-headed. An option bonus is only guaranteed in the option years of the contract. A roster bonus is only guaranteed in the year that the bonus is slated, also you have to be on the roster for it. Neither would be a problem if the contract wasn't BACKLOADED. Which means Champ will have to either restructure, take a pay cut, or renegotiate a whole new contract in the future. Half of Champ's signing bonus is a standard signing bonus, and the other half is an option and roster bonuses. That, for one of the best IF NOT the best corner in the league, is insulting. Now let's say Champ accepted that contract. And 4-5 years into the contract he still hasn't made the bulk of the money offered to him. Yet the majority of the money due to him is coming up, and Snyder contacts Reale with a take it or leave it deal. Restructure or re-do the contract and get cut. Now what does Champ have to negotiate with? He's no longer in his prime at this point, and he has no dead money or guaranteed money to threaten the team with if they decide to release him. Why? Because he isn't in those option and roster bonus years and then, and ONLY then, are they guaranteed. The NFLPA calls them "signing bonuses", but the way they are used isn't like your standard signing bonus. So, if Snyder was giving Champ a "fair" deal. Why include roster and option bonuses in a backloaded contract in the first place?? Coles only had one 1,000 yard season before Snyder offered a 13 million standard bonus with no need to negotiate. Yes, He overpaid. Because it was quite obvious to everyone that Coles would've accepted less. Overpaying for someone doesn't anything to do with paying for their value, it's offering more than what they'll take. THomas, Morton, and Hall would've accepted less to come here. Especially Coles, who was so surprised about the amount of money he yelled at his agent,"What are you talking to me for? Accept it before he changes his mind!" Does Snyder live by the "grass is greener" philosophy? It seems very possible by the contract he offered Champ. I think Snyder has "his" players, Lavar and Bruce Smith were one of those. And he treats them quite handsomely, everyone else doesn't get as many perks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I thought then and know now that the former Jets we signed last year came at the right price. I wouldn't undo any of it if I could. Coles and Thomas were our best offensive players last year, by far. As for Champ, he was offered a good deal and turned it down. The deal he wants will hurt our cap situation, so I won't shed too many tears if we have to have a parting of the ways. He's a great player and plays tough, but he's been talking like he didn't want to be here (pouting) since before last season, so I'm fine with letting someone else take him. I don't necessarily blame him, but I don't blame the Redskins either. Maybe he'll find, from talking to other teams, that the deals out there pretty much mirror what he would get here. Maybe not. Brunell or not Brunell isn't the issue; the issue is if, in signing Champ, we can't sign the players this coaching staff wants (including a veteran QB), there's no point in signing him at all. The lack of pass rush last year contributed to Champ getting burned several times by lesser receivers like Marty Booker, so Champ or Terry Cousins ... does it really matter at that point? I wonder, too, if Gibbs has spoken with Darrell Green at all concerning Champ. No conclusions -- I just wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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