The Evil Genius Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 I did say alt rock though. 🤔  And what's considered the alt rock explosion can most decidedly be attributed to bands like Jane's Addiction. Hence why I said they are a founding member, pioneer, and one of the most influential bands of alt rock.  Edit..I thought Talking Heads were considered post punk new wave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 Anyone want to define "alternative rock" like I'm a 3rd grader?  Rock n roll has a lot of subgenres but I never understood what separated "alt rock" from anything else. I remember when Pearl Jam and Nirvana were considered "alt rock". Alternative to what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 17 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said: But apparently from my admittedly flimsy Google search just now, the term "Alternative music" was being used in 1979 for this stuff. But I do remember the Talking Heads being called "alternative" when I started college in 1981...so there lol.  Talking Heads are New Wave which is a precursor to College Rock which then evolved into Alternative Rock.  19 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:   This is a bit like saying rock and roll music didn't exist before a DJ called it "rock and roll" lol...  Correct this is how words work and evolve to describe certain things and stuff.  By @Califan007 The Constipated rationale Chuck Berry aint a founder of the Rock and Roll but all the artists from the 1940s he emulated were.  So if what Chuck Berry and say idk JANES ADDICTION were doin was just the same old **** that everyone else was doing before why did folks have to come up with new words to classify them? Hmmmmm I wonder. 🙄 Just now, Spaceman Spiff said: I remember when Pearl Jam and Nirvana were considered "alt rock". Alternative to what?  ****ing Ratt and Poison and you're precious Billy Idol mayhaps? Yeah Mony Mony is grunge as all hell. 🤪 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 2 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said:  Talking Heads are New Wave which is a precursor to College Rock which then evolved into Alternative Rock.   Correct this is how words work and evolve to describe certain things and stuff.  By @Califan007 The Constipated rationale Chuck Berry aint a founder of the Rock and Roll but all the artists from the 1940s he emulated were.  So if what Chuck Berry and say idk JANES ADDICTION were doin was just the same old **** that everyone else was doing before why did folks have to come up with new words to classify them? Hmmmmm I wonder. 🙄  ****ing Ratt and Poison and you're precious Billy Idol mayhaps? Yeah Mony Mony is grunge as all hell. 🤪  That's YOUR precious Billy Idol, get it straight.  1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Anyone want to define "alternative rock" like I'm a 3rd grader?  Rock n roll has a lot of subgenres but I never understood what separated "alt rock" from anything else. I remember when Pearl Jam and Nirvana were considered "alt rock". Alternative to what?  I'd say nowadays it's all encompassing and alternative to country, r&b, and hard and/or "classic" rock. My local alt rock station just played Modern English. I doubt Modern English ever thought of themselves as alt rock. They'll also play The Ramones, early Green Day, and other music that probably wasn't labeled as alt rock at the time. Basically my view is if it's not country, hardocre rap, or bubblegum top 40 pop then it's probably fair game these days. Edited March 5 by The Evil Genius 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 4 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:   My thoughts on if they are HOF worthy:  -Mariah Carey Maybe, probably -Cher Nah -Ozzy Osbourne Abso-****ing-lutely, why is he NOT in already? -Mary J Blige Um...don't think so? -Eric B and Rakim Um...don't think so? -Peter Frampton Eh -Kool and the Gang Nah -Sade Nah -Jane's Addiction Um...don't think so? -Oasis Um...don't think so? -Sinead O'Connor Nah -Tribe Called Quest  Um...don't think so? -Lenny Kravitz Nah -Dave Matthews Band Nah -Foreigner Nah--well, maybe...I dunno lol  KEY: Abso-****ing-lutely = Self-explanatory Maybe, probably = I think less of this artist than most but acknowledge they probably deserve entry Eh = Don't have an opinion one way or the other Nah = I don't see why they deserve being in the R&R HOF over a multitude of others, even though I may really like their music Um...don't think so? = Don't know nearly enough about this artist but still believe my opinion of them matters one iota lol...  .    Duuuuude...  Taking Rock and Roll out of it completely since honestly, most in there have NOTHING to do with Rock and Roll.  Mariah Carey over Cher?!?!? Really?!? Cher is iconic going all the way back to Sonny and Cher. Mariah Carey is a holiday gimmick who is only worth a spit in her own mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busch1724 Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 2 hours ago, Xameil said: Duuuuude...   Mariah Carey over Cher?!?!? Really?!? Cher is iconic going all the way back to Sonny and Cher. Mariah Carey is a holiday gimmick who is only worth a spit in her own mind.  Before the Christmas songs, she was the best selling female artist and had a voice and singing style many females tried to copy later. I don't like her music, but she's deserving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 17 minutes ago, Busch1724 said:  Before the Christmas songs, she was the best selling female artist and had a voice and singing style many females tried to copy later. I don't like her music, but she's deserving. She was a wacko then, and only got worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 3 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Anyone want to define "alternative rock" like I'm a 3rd grader?  Rock n roll has a lot of subgenres but I never understood what separated "alt rock" from anything else. I remember when Pearl Jam and Nirvana were considered "alt rock". Alternative to what?  I think it's best defined by it's differences from non-alt rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 (edited) 3 hours ago, Captain Wiggles said:  Talking Heads are New Wave which is a precursor to College Rock which then evolved into Alternative Rock.   Correct this is how words work and evolve to describe certain things and stuff.  By @Califan007 The Constipated rationale Chuck Berry aint a founder of the Rock and Roll but all the artists from the 1940s he emulated were.  So if what Chuck Berry and say idk JANES ADDICTION were doin was just the same old **** that everyone else was doing before why did folks have to come up with new words to classify them? Hmmmmm I wonder. 🙄  ****ing Ratt and Poison and you're precious Billy Idol mayhaps? Yeah Mony Mony is grunge as all hell. 🤪   You're making the mistake of thinking you have to be one or the other (either New Wave or Alternative Rock). There's a lot of overlap.  And the idea that the music we now call "rock and roll" didn't exist until we called it rock and roll is laughable lol...there's no way you believe that.  And for the record, Chuck Berry's first song was recorded in 1955...four years after the term "rock and roll" was first coined. And it was coined because--wait for it--there was music already being recorded and played that fit that description long before Chuck Berry came along. Hell, he was inspired and influenced by it. So by your own logic, rock and roll existed before Chuck Berry because someone named the genre lol...and by my logic the founders of Rock and Roll came onto the scene before he did. At most, you could say he popularized it, made it even more mainstream. But that doesn't mean he founded the genre. The only argument you can make--for both Berry and JA--is to say rock and roll and alternative rock were both established over the decades...but that's not what you've been saying.   Edited March 5 by Califan007 The Constipated 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 There’s not a single person that has ever passed through our beloved tailgate that has more corncobs in their ears than poor @Califan007 The Constipated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 2 hours ago, Xameil said: Duuuuude...  Taking Rock and Roll out of it completely since honestly, most in there have NOTHING to do with Rock and Roll.  Mariah Carey over Cher?!?!? Really?!? Cher is iconic going all the way back to Sonny and Cher. Mariah Carey is a holiday gimmick who is only worth a spit in her own mind.  Cher is more iconic for her personality and overall celebrity than for her music. She had a few iconic songs, but a ton of musical artists have had iconic songs. And I'm not sure anyone can make a valid argument that Mariah Carey is not also iconic.  I went looking for reasons why Cher was influential in the music bidniss, and came across an article in Billboard magazine. I mean, that should be as legit a publication for this exercise as they come. The article, though, left me unimpressed. It tried putting Cher in the same category as David Bowie in terms of androgyny because...well, she had a deep voice on "I Got You Babe" lol. The article also claimed Cher paraded around in androgynous fashions and outfits during the 70s, which I'm guessing they said that because she wore pants?...Patti Smith was the epitome of androgynous women singers in the 70s, as where Cher had zero qualms about showing off her body during that time. Patti and Bowie should be mentioned together, not Bowie and Cher. Not to mention, Grace ****ing Jones lol...she surpassed Cher in terms of androgynous fashions and hell, perhaps even surpassed David Bowie.  The article further mentions her star power on stage and on the screen. For the RR HOF I don't think star power in movies should play any role, especially when those movie rolls have nothing whatsoever to do with music.  The article also says, almost apologetically, "Cher did not, admittedly, pioneer musical genres or take lyrics to new poetic heights." Those tend to be important here. I don't think Mariah Carey did, either, for that matter lol...but while Cher did sell 140 million records, Mariah Carey has sold 220 million records. And Mariah's talent--vocally anyway--eclipses Cher's. Hell, Cher unleashed AutoTune onto the world with "Believe" lol. Further, Cher had either 4 or 5 number one hits, which is impressive...although apparently she didn't like half of them lol, those hits were written for her. By contrast, Mariah Carey has had 19 number one hits...far more than Cher...and wrote or co-wrote 18 of them. So MC comes out on top in terms of singing talent, songwriting ability, record sales, and number one hits.  What could possibly make anyone think it's laughable that Mariah Carey might be more deserving of the HOF than Cher?   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 42 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said: There’s not a single person that has ever passed through our beloved tailgate that has more corncobs in their ears than poor @Califan007 The Constipated.   Were you the guy getting all mushy over George Michael? lol...That was you, right?  And the RR HOF isn't about what any of us personally like in music...that's why I'm able to present arguments for and against artists regardless of how I personally feel about their music. And, for the record, Jukebox Hero is some lame-ass songwriting lol (I know you didn't bring it up). If that's the type of music anyone likes once they take the corn cobs out of their ears, then I'm inserting about 12 more cobs in each ear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 43 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:  Cher is more iconic for her personality and overall celebrity than for her music. She had a few iconic songs, but a ton of musical artists have had iconic songs. And I'm not sure anyone can make a valid argument that Mariah Carey is not also iconic.  I went looking for reasons why Cher was influential in the music bidniss, and came across an article in Billboard magazine. I mean, that should be as legit a publication for this exercise as they come. The article, though, left me unimpressed. It tried putting Cher in the same category as David Bowie in terms of androgyny because...well, she had a deep voice on "I Got You Babe" lol. The article also claimed Cher paraded around in androgynous fashions and outfits during the 70s, which I'm guessing they said that because she wore pants?...Patti Smith was the epitome of androgynous women singers in the 70s, as where Cher had zero qualms about showing off her body during that time. Patti and Bowie should be mentioned together, not Bowie and Cher. Not to mention, Grace ****ing Jones lol...she surpassed Cher in terms of androgynous fashions and hell, perhaps even surpassed David Bowie.  The article further mentions her star power on stage and on the screen. For the RR HOF I don't think star power in movies should play any role, especially when those movie rolls have nothing whatsoever to do with music.  The article also says, almost apologetically, "Cher did not, admittedly, pioneer musical genres or take lyrics to new poetic heights." Those tend to be important here. I don't think Mariah Carey did, either, for that matter lol...but while Cher did sell 140 million records, Mariah Carey has sold 220 million records. And Mariah's talent--vocally anyway--eclipses Cher's. Hell, Cher unleashed AutoTune onto the world with "Believe" lol. Further, Cher had either 4 or 5 number one hits, which is impressive...although apparently she didn't like half of them lol, those hits were written for her. By contrast, Mariah Carey has had 19 number one hits...far more than Cher...and wrote or co-wrote 18 of them. So MC comes out on top in terms of singing talent, songwriting ability, record sales, and number one hits.  What could possibly make anyone think it's laughable that Mariah Carey might be more deserving of the HOF than Cher?   To me, Mariah Carey will also be a self absorbed delusional wacko who was more the butt of Howard Stern jokes then any actual singing talent. I mean i guess people thought she was good because she had a big singing range, but honestly, I think she only benefitted from the time she was relevant. Maybe she was a good somgwriter...idk to me she always made my ears bleed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 I don’t like her music but can’t deny her talent and she’s sold a **** ton of records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Mariah Carey 12 platinum, 1 gold (out of 15 studio albums)  Cher 3 gold (from 1965 to 1982) Than 3 Platinun and 2 gold between 1997 and 1998  Mary J 8 Platinum (including eight for eight of her first and 4 gold)  Eric B and Rakim 1 Platinum and 2 Gold out of 4 total  Sade All 6 of their studio albums went Platinum and they had 1 live album that was Gold  Kool and the Gang 4 Platinum and 5 Gold albums   Here are my comments:  "Why are they not in already?" Tier Mariah Ozzy  "Yeah, put them in..." Mary Jay Oasis DMB  "Surprisingly strong resume..." Sade Foreigner  Lenny Kravitz will probably make it....it's his first time on the ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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