They came for the Ivy League Presidents, and I laughed at the SNL skit about it...

[PeterMP]

7 hours ago, Destino said:

You can’t just waive your hands and dismiss something like this. Not after years of safe spaces, microaggressions, and mandatory anti-racism training. You can’t ignore what Jewish students are saying after being told, forever, that it’s not our place to tell someone else what is and isn’t offensive. Our place is to listen and change. We’ve spent years seeing racist graffiti make headlines. We’ve heard that words are violence, that silence too is violence. Watched campuses launch investigations to make sure students feel safe in response to graffiti. It became so predictable that white supremacists successfully trolled colleges with posters reading “it’s ok to be white”, to which they also responded with investigations and screams of outrage. 
 

Thats the context. Thats the backdrop college leaders created for this latest drama. Yet in this moment, we’re supposed to believe college presidents view liberal interpretations of free speech as the priority?
 

They can’t just set down their own playbook when it becomes inconvenient and expect everyone else to play along. Of course this is being mocked. The jokes practically write themselves. 

 

I think you are over stating universities responses to some things in many cases.  For example, I don't think colleges really responded to the "it's ok to be white" signs with investigations.  And certainly not in a wide spread manner or very robust investigations.

 

I think for the most part they were ignored at the University level.  Some people were upset and there were protests, but I don't think it was really treated seriously by essentially any college.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_okay_to_be_white

 

I also don't know of a university that requires anti-racism training.  Every university that I know of requires some basic DEI training (to cover things like what you can't ask in an interview since faculty are often involved in hiring), but not specifically anti-racism training.  You generally seem to be conflating words and actions by the most left wing students/faculty with the actions of university administrations and then maybe taking the actions of a very few university administrations and broadening that universities in genera.

 

In the context of this thread, did PENN, Harvard, or MIT do anything about it is okay to be white signs posted on their campus?

Has anybody ever been punished for a microaggression on their campus?

Do they have mandatory anti-racism training?

 

Generally, you seem to be suggesting that there is a double standard.  It would be nice if you'd actually give a concrete example where somebody was punished for something by these universities that would be similar to a case where somebody wasn't punished for something that is antisemitic.

 

Where have these universities actually treated other types of bias, discrimination, and hate differently than they antisemitism?

Edited December 13, 2023 by PeterMP

[Spearfeather]

 

 

[Destino]

40 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I think you are over stating universities responses to some things in many cases.  For example, I don't think colleges really responded to the "it's ok to be white" signs with investigations.  And certainly not in a wide spread manner or very robust investigations.

 

I think for the most part they were ignored at the University level.  Some people were upset and there were protests, but I don't think it was really treated seriously by essentially any college.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_okay_to_be_white

I remember that not being the case and a quick search yielded these results in five seconds.

Quote

A Tennessee university has opened an investigation after signs saying "It's okay to be white" were placed around its campus, including on a display honoring the first African American students to enroll at the school.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/it-s-okay-be-white-signs-posted-tennessee-university-campus-n1076596
 

Quote

Earlier this month, two universities in central Ohio removed flyers and stickers proclaiming “It’s okay to be white,” as well as those purportedly promoting the white nationalist organization Patriot Front, from their campuses. And once again, the FBI is reportedly investigating the postings, adding more data points to an apparent trend towards involving the FBI and other law enforcement agencies in investigations of on-campus expression based solely on the viewpoint of that expression.

https://www.thefire.org/news/ohio-universities-involve-fbi-investigation-its-okay-be-white-and-white-nationalist-groups
 

Quote

A student has been expelled from the Oklahoma City University School of Law after posting flyers that said “IT’S OKAY TO BE WHITE.”

OCU Police Director Bill Citty said the male student was already on suspension from the law school, 800 N Harvey, and was not allowed to be on school property. The student violated the terms of his suspension when he posted the flyers on the door and exterior of the law school building the night of Oct. 31, Citty said.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/columns/2019/12/10/suspended-student-expelled-after-posting-its-okay-to-be-white-flyers-at-ocu/60415061007/

 

40 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I also don't know of a university that requires anti-racism training.  Every university that I know of requires some basic DEI training (to cover things like what you can't ask in an interview since faculty are often involved in hiring), but not specifically anti-racism training.  You generally seem to be conflating words and actions by the most left wing students/faculty with the actions of university administrations and then maybe taking the actions of a very few university administrations and broadening that universities in genera.

 

ok but…

Quote

In a Nov. 1 email, Provost and Senior Vice President for Academic Affairs David Madigan announced that Northeastern will be requiring anti-racism and cultural literacy training for all faculty, staff and students on all Northeastern campuses and explained the coming implementation. 

According to an email from multiple administrative officials sent July 6, this curriculum will become a permanent part of faculty and student orientation for all community members at Northeastern. 

https://huntnewsnu.com/66979/campus/northeastern-outlines-anti-racism-training/

 

 

Quote

Western University’s Office of Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion is forcing its staff, faculty and students to complete a mandatory “anti-racism” learning module before November 24th. 

The London, Ont. university sent an email to its staff and students Oct. 3, warning them that the “Building Inclusivity through Anti-Racism” online module is “required training,” with a passing grade of 80%.

https://tnc.news/2023/10/07/western-anti-racism-training/
 

and let’s not forget that it’s being integrated into course work. 

 

 

40 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

In the context of this thread, did PENN, Harvard, or MIT do anything about it is okay to be white signs posted on their campus?

Has anybody ever been punished for a microaggression on their campus?

Do they have mandatory anti-racism training?

No idea, I can only go by what’s reported, and that’s at the discretion of universities. Typically they do not disclose student discipline, and they struggled to even state that calls for genocide constitutes harassment, so I’d say they’re pretty tight lipped about this stuff. 
 

I fail to see how this discussion, how asking these questions, is in any way fascist. Let’s say it was taken a step further and civil rights investigations were launched to make certain these campuses were not discriminating, would that substantial escalation be fascism? I’d still say no. 
 

 

[PeterMP]

19 minutes ago, Destino said:

I remember that not being the case and a quick search yielded these results in five seconds.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/it-s-okay-be-white-signs-posted-tennessee-university-campus-n1076596
 

https://www.thefire.org/news/ohio-universities-involve-fbi-investigation-its-okay-be-white-and-white-nationalist-groups
 

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/columns/2019/12/10/suspended-student-expelled-after-posting-its-okay-to-be-white-flyers-at-ocu/60415061007/

 

 

ok but…

https://huntnewsnu.com/66979/campus/northeastern-outlines-anti-racism-training/

 

 

https://tnc.news/2023/10/07/western-anti-racism-training/
 

and let’s not forget that it’s being integrated into course work. 

 

 

No idea, I can only go by what’s reported, and that’s at the discretion of universities. Typically they do not disclose student discipline, and they struggled to even state that calls for genocide constitutes harassment, so I’d say they’re pretty tight lipped about this stuff. 
 

I fail to see how this discussion, how asking these questions, is in any way fascist. Let’s say it was taken a step further and civil rights investigations were launched to make certain these campuses were not discriminating, would that substantial escalation be fascism? I’d still say no. 
 

 

 

My claim wasn't that it happened none.  I think you are looking at a very small number of cases that in some cases were coupled with other things (in Ohio there appears to have been a rash of things being posted (including swastikas) that triggered some of the aggressiveness.

 

But I think you are looking at a few rare cases and conflating that to universities as whole.  You've taken what appears to have happened at a very few universities in some specific cases and broadened them the behavior of universities as a whole ("You generally seem to be conflating words and actions by the most left wing students/faculty with the actions of university administrations and then maybe taking the actions of a very few university administrations and broadening that universities in general.")

 

Universities are limited to what they can say about the punishment of specific students due to the rights of the students.  

 

Some university in Canada is integrating anti-racism training into their curriculum.  That isn't really relevant to colleges in generally.  But among certain groups its a big deal and makes the news.

 

And none of that really seems to be relevant to Harvard, Penn, or MIT.

Edited December 13, 2023 by PeterMP

[Destino]

3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

My claim wasn't that it happened none.  I think you are looking at a very small number of cases that in some cases were coupled with other things (in Ohio there appears to have been a rash of things being posted (including swastikas) that triggered some of the aggressiveness.

 

But I think you are looking at a few rare cases and conflating that to universities as whole.  You've taken what appears to have happened at a very few universities in some specific cases and broadened them the behavior of universities as a whole ("You generally seem to be conflating words and actions by the most left wing students/faculty with the actions of university administrations and then maybe taking the actions of a very few university administrations and broadening that universities in general.")

 

Universities are limited to what they can say about the punishment of specific students due to the rights of the students.  

 

And none of that really seems to be relevant to Harvard, Penn, or MIT.

I have no way of knowing how most universities responded to anything, because I have no way of knowing how many universities were trolled in the first place. Being that trolls aren’t the most numerous or organized people on earth, I’m guessing the number is very low. Considering that schools got the FBI involved and expelled a student over it, I think it’s fair to say they didn’t just laugh it off. 
 

I'm failing to see why we should treat Harvard, UPenn, and MIT as if they exist in a vacuum. I’m also unclear as to why questioning any of this is unfair. Since when is making certain discrimination isn’t happening, and deciding that it should not be happening bad, let alone fascist? 
 

Being able to state you’re against discrimination and what you’re doing about it is not a high bar for any leader in the US. 

[Hersh]

3 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

I'm pretty sure the UPENN President was never directly asked if calling for genocide of the Jews was harassment or bullying.

 

Here is what I believe is a full and accurate transcript.  Genocide is used 5 times.  None in relation questions to the Penn President.  And never really directly asked to the Harvard President where she's allowed to fully answer the question.

 

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/university-presidents-testify-before-house-on-anti-semitism-and-violent-protests-transcript

 

Most of Stefnik's comments were based on jumping from infatada to that's a call for genocide (which isn't normally how it has historically defined).  Those comments are put to Gay, and then she generally cuts Gay off before she can answer the question.

 

https://www.wsj.com/video/rep-elise-stefanik-grills-penn-president-liz-magill-on-campus-antisemitism/BC48A26D-FCC2-4DF1-9E01-0E18042A604A

 

The transcript you posted is missing a couple hours worth of testimony. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Hersh

[PeterMP]

8 hours ago, Destino said:

I have no way of knowing how most universities responded to anything, because I have no way of knowing how many universities were trolled in the first place. Being that trolls aren’t the most numerous or organized people on earth, I’m guessing the number is very low. Considering that schools got the FBI involved and expelled a student over it, I think it’s fair to say they didn’t just laugh it off. 
 

I'm failing to see why we should treat Harvard, UPenn, and MIT as if they exist in a vacuum. I’m also unclear as to why questioning any of this is unfair. Since when is making certain discrimination isn’t happening, and deciding that it should not be happening bad, let alone fascist? 
 

Being able to state you’re against discrimination and what you’re doing about it is not a high bar for any leader in the US. 

 

The student that was suspended was already on probation for other things, and we don't know what those other things were.  

 

And they didn't get the FBI just involved in that.  There appears to have been a number of other instances in OH that had the universities there are on high alert, including things like drawing swastikas.  And they were particularly concerned about a specific organization.

 

You're also ignoring the wikipedia page that I posted where places like Berkely clearly said it wasn't a violation of their rules, and other univeristies made statements but didn't really do anything.

 

And you have some way of knowing, especially at public universities because they do get sued over free speech issues and every university has to be in compliance with Title VI.  And those lawsuits would be a matter of public record.  Universities aren't regularly losing freedom of speech and Title VI based lawsuits because they've discriminated against people, including white supremacist and other hate groups.

 

https://www.justice.gov/crt/fcs/TitleVI-Overview

 

I'm failing to see why when there are thousands of institutions across the country and even more if we throw in Canada why we should act like something that happens at a few cases is really relevant to what happens at other specific ones.   Just because some mom and pop pizza places have violations of the health code doesn't mean that every mom and pop pizza place has the same issues or treats cleanliness the same way.

 

I didn't argue that it was fascist, and the person that did seems to have taken that back.  I've also got no issue with leaders being able to say they are against discrimination and what they are doing about it.  You seemed to be suggesting a double standard for how speech related to different groups is treated.  I'm saying I'm not sure that's the case.  I think most of the things you pointed to in your original post don't result in any significant action by the universities in most cases.  There are a few cases (mostly driven by special circumstances) where universities have been more aggressive but any time you have a large  number of entities using what has happened in a few cases to paint the larger set of entities or other specific entities in a certain light often has issues.  And realistically often results in discrimination.

Edited December 13, 2023 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

7 hours ago, Hersh said:

 

https://www.wsj.com/video/rep-elise-stefanik-grills-penn-president-liz-magill-on-campus-antisemitism/BC48A26D-FCC2-4DF1-9E01-0E18042A604A

 

The transcript you posted is missing a couple hours worth of testimony. 

 

I hadn't seen that exchange.  My fault.  That is bad.

[Destino]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

I'm failing to see why when there are thousands of institutions across the country and even more if we throw in Canada why we should act like something that happens at a few cases is really relevant to what happens at other specific ones.   Just because some mom and pop pizza places have violations of the health code doesn't mean that every mom and pop pizza place has the same issues or treats cleanliness the same way.

 

mom and pop pizza places aren’t pushing the similar philosophies. Academia has much more in common. The good news is we’ve dealt with institutional racism before and academics aren’t generally inclined to be racist hardliners. A few federal civil rights investigations making sure they’re not discriminating on race and offering equal protections should set them back on the right path. 

 

[DCSaints_fan]

I haven't actually heard anyone campus publicly advocating for genocide, unless you want to construe that "from the river to the sea" implies genocide

 

This Stanford student did say, in print, that White people need to be "eradicated" and didn't face any sanction from the university

 

https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-senator-says-white-people-need-to-be-eradicated/

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by DCSaints_fan

[Hersh]

25 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said:

I haven't actually heard anyone campus publicly advocating for genocide, unless you want to construe that "from the river to the sea" implies genocide

 

This Stanford student did say, in print, that White people need to be "eradicated" and didn't face any sanction from the university

 

https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-senator-says-white-people-need-to-be-eradicated/

 

 

the Stanford student stole that from Bulworth. IYKYK. 

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, Destino said:

 

mom and pop pizza places aren’t pushing the similar philosophies. Academia has much more in common. The good news is we’ve dealt with institutional racism before and academics aren’t generally inclined to be racist hardliners. A few federal civil rights investigations making sure they’re not discriminating on race and offering equal protections should set them back on the right path. 

 

 

They are all pushing selling the best pizza possible at the lowest possible price.

 

All colleges are trying to recruit the best students that they can while maintaining a healthy/sustainable student population and not having too many issues with retention.  

 

Maybe I'm cynical.  But when you look at the US population and the % of people from different groups that go to college, it is/has been pretty clear that for essentially very college out there that if they want to retain their student population that is required for them function as they our, the number of minorities they have had/will have to go up.  Colleges didn't essentially max out the % of white males that could/would go to college and then start worrying about other groups going to college by accident.

 

If you are recruiting the same % of minority students that you were in 1995 as a college, you either are in serious trouble or will be in serious trouble in the next 25 years.  Falling student populations is a huge issue for colleges.  Student recruitment is expensive so retaining students is a big deal.  You see the rise of certain programs at universities because the make sense.  They either positively help in recruitment or in retention.  And when they don't, universities will end them.  (There are cases where things are done to comply with laws in which case they'll continue).

 

But you wouldn't say because a mom and pop shop cut the corners on the cleanliness to save money that means every mom and pop pizza shop or some other mom and pop pizza shop is.  Colleges are no different.

Edited December 13, 2023 by PeterMP

[Llevron]

15 hours ago, Spearfeather said:

 

 

 

Damn this is a terrible take. I really couldn't believe some of the stupid lines he drew with really manufactured data without even blinking.

[Destino]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

They are all pushing selling the best pizza possible at the lowest possible price.

 

All colleges are trying to recruit the best students that they can while maintaining a healthy/sustainable student population and not having too many issues with retention.  

 

Maybe I'm cynical.  But when you look at the US population and the % of people from different groups that go to college, it is/has been pretty clear that for essentially very college out there that if they want to retain their student population that is required for them function as they our, the number of minorities they have had/will have to go up.  Colleges didn't essentially max out the % of white males that could/would go to college and then start worrying about other groups going to college by accident.

 

If you are recruiting the same % of minority students that you were in 1995 as a college, you either are in serious trouble or will be in serious trouble in the next 25 years.  Falling student populations is a huge issue for colleges.  Student recruitment is expensive so retaining students is a big deal.  You see the rise of certain programs at universities because the make sense.  They either positively help in recruitment or in retention.  And when they don't, universities will end them.  (There are cases where things are done to comply with laws in which case they'll continue).

 

But you wouldn't say because a mom and pop shop cut the corners on the cleanliness to save money that means every mom and pop pizza shop or some other mom and pop pizza shop is.  Colleges are no different.

Pizza shops sell pizzas. Colleges sell education. 
 

colleges recently began selling intersectional anti-racism that no longer believes in treating people equally. It preaches treating people in a manner that subjectively promotes equity. The sort of thing that prioritizes some groups over others. Labels some as inherently oppressive and others as inherently oppressed. Now this may very well be a great idea, and a necessary idea, but it’s also the sort of thing that can result in Jewish students being treated differently than others. Jewish students are on record saying their concerns are being ignored and that they feel unsafe.

 

Pizza shops just sell pizza. 

[Spearfeather]

28 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

 I really couldn't believe some of the stupid lines he drew with really manufactured data without even blinking.

 

I'm not sure what data you think he's manufacturing, but ok.

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

I'm not sure what data you think he's manufacturing, but ok.

 

The whole 'less people are applying to schools because they are so political' thing that he spent 4 minutes on. He provided exactly zero data on that. He said it. Showed numbers that he said supported it. But he manufactured that entire point out of nothing. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Llevron

[Spearfeather]

7 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

The whole 'less people are applying to schools because they are so political' thing that he spent 4 minutes on. He provided exactly zero data on that. He said it. Showed numbers that he said supported it. But he manufactured that entire point out of nothing. 

 

From the polls he cited people are losing faith in and are less inclined to apply to universities. 

 

Why do think that is  ?

Edited December 13, 2023 by Spearfeather

[Llevron]

Just now, Spearfeather said:

 

From the polls he cit

 

He showed numbers saying people are not applying to school as much and took that to mean its because they are so political. There are many more, much more obvious reasons. He could be right. But none of the numbers he showed even came close to implying what he said out of his mouth. 

[Destino]

5 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

The whole 'less people are applying to schools because they are so political' thing that he spent 4 minutes on. He provided exactly zero data on that. He said it. Showed numbers that he said supported it. But he manufactured that entire point out of nothing. 

I suspect politics may have turned some small tiny fraction of right wing families away from colleges in general. If there is a major downturn in enrollment though I suspect cost is the dominant factor. Trade schools can provide steady respectable employment that many college degrees just can’t, and at a lower cost. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

I agree with Fareed and Fearspeather.  
 

Fewer racist, neo-confederate institutions that hide their overt political aspirations behind religion would be a tremendous benefit to both the nation and humanity in general.

[PeterMP]

21 minutes ago, Destino said:

colleges recently began selling intersectional anti-racism that no longer believes in treating people equally. It preaches treating people in a manner that subjectively promotes equity. The sort of thing that prioritizes some groups over others. Labels some as inherently oppressive and others as inherently oppressed. Now this may very well be a great idea, and a necessary idea, but it’s also the sort of thing that can result in Jewish students being treated differently than others. Jewish students are on record saying their concerns are being ignored and that they feel unsafe.

 

Again, you are treating all colleges the same.  It is like saying that all mom and pop pizza shops only sell the same kind of pizza.

 

All kinds of groups of students report that they fell unheard and unsafe.  Muslim students feel unsafe too.

 

https://19thnews.org/2021/11/muslim-students-schools-hijab/

[Spearfeather]

7 minutes ago, Destino said:

 If there is a major downturn in enrollment though I suspect cost is the dominant factor. Trade schools can provide steady respectable employment that many college degrees just can’t, and at a lower cost. 

 

I would agree that this is certainly playing a part.

[Destino]

16 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

I agree with Fareed and Fearspeather.  
 

Fewer racist, neo-confederate institutions that hide their overt political aspirations behind religion would be a tremendous benefit to both the nation and humanity in general.

Interestingly enough, religion getting overly political has sent their numbers in the US into an absolute plummet. Theres something to be said for staying in your lane. 

[PeterMP]

Especially, it isn't like enrollment is dropping faster among whites than minorities.  Even whites have the highest % of young people that go to college and so could lose the most, the decrease in the percent of people no longer going to college is very similar and even higher % than whites for minority groups.

 

The statistics certainly suggest something more general that affects races the same is affecting enrollment.  Though the biggest issue for colleges and total enrollment is mostly the declining population of young people.

Edited December 13, 2023 by PeterMP

[TheGreatBuzz]

I've stayed out of this because I don't think I have much to offer.  But I think there could be a similarity in narrative vs reality between the why aren't kids going to college and why they aren't joining the military.  It isn't as political as people think.  I'll leave it to you all to discuss.

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2023/12/06/political-fights-arent-discouraging-recruits-military-recruiters-say/