The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Disagree. I mean, is there such a thing as an ideal QB by simply viewing the player in isolation without any other factors? 

No prospect is perfect. But there is a tried and true formula for sustained success in the NFL: Draft and develop your own pocket passing QB with certain elite traits and build around him to sustain year in year out success, and hope that at some point you can build the rest of it around him to get yourself a window to win a Super Bowl.

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Lamar wasn't bad yesterday. I think the play calling was desperate and cost them. You're the top running team and on 3rd and 1 you're throwing 30 yard passes? It was just dumb.

 

They also need to sell out this draft and move up for a true WR1 or sign Mike Evans or both.

Lamar was bad, but I agree the playcalling also sucked. It was like Bienemy took over the Ravens offense yesterday. SIX combined handoffs to RBs??? In a game that was was generally within 7 points the whole time? When you're the top rushing team in the league? Wtf???

[OtisDriftwood25]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

This is a similar fate most great QBs face year in and year out. It’s not only reserved for the elite dual threat guys. 

Agreed, Peyton Manning was known for same thing. Josh Allen has 20 td and 5 int and being questioned now. 

[ntotoro]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

This is a similar fate most great QBs face year in and year out. It’s not only reserved for the elite dual threat guys. 

 

This is true, but the "dual threat" guys tend to get boggled down more than not in the moments that matter most. Force them to throw, they take on too much and implode. I look at Goff yesterday. He wasn't at all why Detroit lost. HC left 6 six points on the field and the WR's had key drops at the worst moments. I'd take that skillset with escapability and athleticism over someone whose legs are the primary thing against which teams plan.

[ThatNFLChick]

13 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Lamar wasn't bad yesterday. I think the play calling was desperate and cost them. You're the top running team and on 3rd and 1 you're throwing 30 yard passes? It was just dumb.

 

They also need to sell out this draft and move up for a true WR1 or sign Mike Evans or both.

 

Yes the playcalling was atrocious and made no sense. 

 

But the same thing that doomed Lamar is what doomed Josh Allen - TRYING TO PLAY HERO BALL! Both had a chance to tie the game and both decided to play hero ball and put the ball in harms way instead of just taking what the defense gave them. Lamar threw into triple coverage forcing a ball to Flowes and Josh Allen had multiple checkdowns in front of his face but decided to try to force the ball into the endzone twice and screwed the team. 

Edited January 29 by ThatNFLChick

[wit33]

3 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

This is true, but the "dual threat" guys tend to get boggled down more than not in the moments that matter most. Force them to throw, they take on too much and implode. I look at Goff yesterday. He wasn't at all why Detroit lost. HC left 6 six points on the field and the WR's had key drops at the worst moments. I'd take that skillset with escapability and athleticism over someone whose legs are the primary thing against which teams plan.

Don't most great quarterbacks face challenges or get bogged down in the playoffs and fall short of winning Super Bowls? 

 

However, I want to emphasize that I don't align with the belief that a Super Bowl victory is the sole determinant of a quarterback's value from season to season.

[CapsSkins]

4 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Yes the playcalling was atrocious and made no sense. 

 

But the same thing that doomed Lamar is what doomed Josh Allen - TRYING TO PLAY HERO BALL! Both had a chance to tie the game and both decided to play hero ball and put the ball in harms way instead of just taking what the defense gave them. Lamar threw into triple coverage forcing a ball to Flowes and Josh Allen had multiple checkdowns in front of his face but decided to try to force the ball into the endzone twice and screwed the team. 

Hero ball doomed the Ravens but Lamar was inaccurate all day. At a certain point you’d rather he have average mobility but hit those deep shots they took vs alien-like mobility but constantly overthrowing guys.

[OtisDriftwood25]

3 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Hero ball doomed the Ravens but Lamar was inaccurate all day. At a certain point you’d rather he have average mobility but hit those deep shots they took vs alien-like mobility but constantly overthrowing guys.

I thought to myself yesterday, Howell may have won that game.

Edited January 29 by OtisDriftwood25

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, OtisDriftwood25 said:

I thought to myself yesterday. Howell may have won that game yesterday.

Howell would have taken 10 sacks by halftime.

[Command The 414]

Lamar was bad yesterday, but imho the Chiefs along w/Steve Spagnola need to be given a lot of credit for the scheme they applied yesterday, which was a huge factor in LJ looking bad… these run first pass second type QB’s can and normally do get shut down and made to look bad when the DC schemes up a great defensive game and has the horses to carry that scheme out… and the Chiefs do and did 

[ntotoro]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Don't most great quarterbacks face challenges or get bogged down in the playoffs and fall short of winning Super Bowls? 

 

However, I want to emphasize that I don't align with the belief that a Super Bowl victory is the sole determinant of a quarterback's value from season to season.

 

That doesn't change the fact that a dual-threat QB (which is really just legs first/arms second) has never won a SB. They get figured out when the regular season is over. Lamar was inaccurate as hell yesterday, regardless the playcalling. Why? Because that's what he is. Saying "Well, only one QB can win the Super Bowl every year, so that doesn't mean the others are worthless" doesn't change how the game changes when you're moving on in the post-season.

1 minute ago, Command The 414 said:

Lamar was bad yesterday, but imho the Chiefs along w/Steve Spagnola need to be given a lot of credit for the scheme they applied yesterday, which was a huge factor in LJ looking bad… these run first pass second type QB’s can and normally do get shut down and made to look bad when the DC schemes up a great defensive game and has the horses to carry that scheme out… and the Chiefs do and did 

 

That's exactly what changes as you progress in the post-season. Take out his legs (figuratively) and dare him to beat you otherwise. They've paid him a ton of money now and have to accept he is what he is while trying to be thrifty elsewhere.

[ThatNFLChick]

3 minutes ago, OtisDriftwood25 said:

I thought to myself yesterday, Howell may have won that game.

 

Except Howell couldn't hit any deep balls laat season 

[CapsSkins]

Goff who’s not particularly mobile had the Lions routinely converting on 3rd and long before his receivers started dropping balls that hit them in the hands.

 

Goff was way better than Lamar yesterday, even though Lamar pulled a Houdini a few times escape-wise and was running effectively.

[ThatNFLChick]

2 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

That doesn't change the fact that a dual-threat QB (which is really just legs first/arms second) has never won a SB. They get figured out when the regular season is over. Lamar was inaccurate as hell yesterday, regardless the playcalling. Why? Because that's what he is. Saying "Well, only one QB can win the Super Bowl every year, so that doesn't mean the others are worthless" doesn't change how the game changes when you're moving on in the post-season.

 

Lamar was inaccurate in college which is why, while I like Lamar, I have said you don't take QBs with accuracy issues. Even if they are able to clean them up, when they panic they always resort to the same bad mechanics/footwork, etc that made them inaccurate.

 

Just like Josh Allen reverting back to the same turnover machine he was in college.

[Ghost of]

26 minutes ago, wit33 said:

This is a similar fate most great QBs face year in and year out. It’s not only reserved for the elite dual threat guys. 

But Purdy and Mahomes can both run and move. Arguably, if Purdy wasn't hurt last year, this is the same matchup we'd have.  Also, the difference is that some Qbs come up short but have great games while doing so and the difference is just the defenses, special teams, bad coaching.  Although Lamar wasn't awful yesterday the lesson I'd take is:

 

1) You need to be really good from the pocket and have ability to make drive-sustaining/back-breaking runs. 

2) You also need to use your mobility to look downfield.

 

I don't think you need to be "elite" in Lamar's particular ability to run, shift, and mostly avoid mega-hits.

 

All of the QBs we're looking at can move, that's not the issue. What we want is someone who can do #1 really well when the times call for it because that's what will set them apart from the guy who is more "average" at dissecting defenses or as a passer but is "great" at running.

[ntotoro]

Just now, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Lamar was inaccurate in college which is why, while I like Lamar, I have said you don't take QBs with accuracy issues. Even if they are able to clean them up, when they panic they always resort to the same bad mechanics/footwork, etc that made them inaccurate.

 

Just like Josh Allen reverting back to the same turnover machine he was in college.

 

They tend to not get better and the game is faster. Lamar was inaccurate coming out of college and had a rough first season or so before working on it, but he is what he is at the end of the day. Same with Josh Allen, who becomes a turnover machine when things get ugly, which was what he always was. 

[Ghost of]

5 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Goff who’s not particularly mobile had the Lions routinely converting on 3rd and long before his receivers started dropping balls that hit them in the hands.

 

Goff was way better than Lamar yesterday, even though Lamar pulled a Houdini a few times escape-wise and was running effectively.

Yes, I find the "hey most QBs don't get to the SB" argument disingenuous. We're talking about who does have sustained success and gives their team good chances to get there and what happens when they face defenses that excel at confusing you or making you do things you're less comfortable with. That's why the ability to throw from the pocket, manipulate it and improvise but still pass are more important than just running alone (no matter what kind of runner you are.) There are statues at QB who had magnificent game-changing runs (including Brady) in the playoffs.

[Warhead36]

12 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Goff who’s not particularly mobile had the Lions routinely converting on 3rd and long before his receivers started dropping balls that hit them in the hands.

 

Goff was way better than Lamar yesterday, even though Lamar pulled a Houdini a few times escape-wise and was running effectively.

Goff gets a lot of hate but he's a top 10 QB easily.

[ThatNFLChick]

5 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

They tend to not get better and the game is faster. Lamar was inaccurate coming out of college and had a rough first season or so before working on it, but he is what he is at the end of the day. Same with Josh Allen, who becomes a turnover machine when things get ugly, which was what he always was. 

 

Totally agree. 

[profusion]

This "Lamar vs Goff" discussion based on Sunday's results would tend to favor us choosing Maye over Daniels, if that's the choice at hand.

 

Mahomes looks more and more like a unicorn. The guy who can run like no one's business but also play the traditional QB role as well as anyone ever has. He was amazing yesterday--very nearly perfect.

[ThatNFLChick]

1 minute ago, profusion said:

This "Lamar vs Goff" discussion based on Sunday's results would tend to favor us choosing Maye over Daniels, if that's the choice at hand.

 

Mahomes looks more and more like a unicorn. The guy who can run like no one's business but also play the traditional QB role as well as anyone ever has. He was amazing yesterday--very nearly perfect.

 

Lol I don't think anyone actually drafts QBs that way 😂

 

Also as good as Goff has been this season, and I think he's been underrated, I don't think there is a single team saying "please find me the next Jared Goff"

[Command The 414]

18 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

That's exactly what changes as you progress in the post-season. Take out his legs (figuratively) and dare him to beat you otherwise. They've paid him a ton of money now and have to accept he is what he is while trying to be thrifty elsewhere.

Totally agree, I work in Baltimore City and am totally surrounded by Ravens fans… and even they have been saying that the Ravens will not will the SB w/Lamar as the QB for the exact reason you stated… many of them didn’t want them to resign him… but here in a few short weeks he will be named MVP of the league when he only threw for 24TD’s ) 5 of which were against the Fins the 2nd to last game… and ESPN and other outlets claim insensitivity toward Lamar, when people say he’s not a throwing quarterback

[Warhead36]

5 minutes ago, profusion said:

This "Lamar vs Goff" discussion based on Sunday's results would tend to favor us choosing Maye over Daniels, if that's the choice at hand.

 

Mahomes looks more and more like a unicorn. The guy who can run like no one's business but also play the traditional QB role as well as anyone ever has. He was amazing yesterday--very nearly perfect.

Yeah Mahomes is an alien from another planet. If THAT'S the guy you're hunting for, good luck. I know Caleb Williams gets a lot of Mahomes comps but man, you're gonna be sorely disappointed if that's your expectation. I get more of a Baker Mayfield vibe from Williams anyway(not that that's necessarily a bad thing, Baker is a good QB).

[Command The 414]

1 minute ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Lol I don't think anyone actually drafts QBs that way 😂

 

Also as good as Goff has been this season, and I think he's been underrated, I don't think there is a single team saying "please find me the next Jared Goff"

Well as a fan of this franchise I’d love to have a Jared Goff clone as QB

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, Command The 414 said:

Totally agree, I work in Baltimore City and am totally surrounded by Ravens fans… and even they have been saying that the Ravens will not will the SB w/Lamar as the QB for the exact reason you stated… many of them didn’t want them to resign him… but here in a few short weeks he will be named MVP of the league when he only threw for 24TD’s ) 5 of which were against the Fins the 2nd to last game… and ESPN and other outlets claim insensitivity toward Lamar, when people say he’s not a throwing quarterback

I think they can win with him because their organizational culture is so strong. You got an elite weapon at QB and a franchise that can draft and develop talent as well as anyone.

 

Keep your window open and keep taking shots and hope one year everything breaks through for you.

 

Remember people said Young and Elway couldn't win either. Eventually they did.

[bearrock]

8 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Goff gets a lot of hate but he's a top 10 QB easily.

 

I think there are too many QBs near each other to rank them with a cutoff line at 10.  But I view it as QBs with legitimate argument as the best in NFL or at least very close.  Then are the QBs who can't stake a claim as among the best, but undoubtedly can win and even win a championship with.  Goff belongs in that second category for me (along with another 10 or so QBs probably).