Like it or not, there will be a QB contraversy next year

[Art]

Great,

On one hand you are correct. Obviously there will be a QB controversy here. That's what happens in DC when fans are too inane to recognize the obvious and decide all the world's ailments could be solved by the backup.

Hasselbeck has some strengths as a player that surpass those of Patrick Ramsey. But, in no way shape or form is he as good a player as Ramsey. There should NOT be a controversy, but, fans like you will be too blindly foolish to realize that and YOU'LL be the ones who allow one to fester while reasonable minds try to talk you down off the ledge.

Hasselbeck is the reason we lost the Saints game. Just as Ramsey was the reason we lost the Carolina game. The simple inability to hit the wide open receiver -- or in Hasselbeck's case to even SEE the wide open receiver -- has left countless yards and points on the field. Against the Saints Hasselbeck was simply atrocious. I was stunned watching the game and seeing the whole field just how completely unaware he appeared time and again. And when he did finally see the open guys, his arm simply didn't have the necessary zip to get the ball there. Ramsey's would have.

He missed open guys and, worse, he took short completions over open longer ones. He's been MODESTLY efficient as Spurrier HAS made the game more simple for him than it was for Ramsey. This is obvious. There's less on Hasselbeck's plate than there was on Ramsey's.

What we do have in Hasselbeck is a competent backup QB. But, to even consider him a possible starter you are missing the obvious nature of an emerging QB. There is a "surprise" to a young QB. Ramsey benefitted from that earlier this year. There simply wasn't enough useful film from his rookie year to get a good book on him. To know his strengths and weaknesses. To know where to rush him from and what routes to take away to confuse him.

As that book has emerged you've seen Ramsey less decisive and confused. It's how Ramsey emerges from this that will define who he is as a QB. I've said this for two years now. It's how he plays doing the things teams know he does less well that will make him a great QB. If he fails at that he'll merely be an adequate QB.

With Hasselbeck there's not enough tape on him yet to determine what he is or what he isn't. He goes into every game with a great advantage over the defense because they can't know him as thoroughly as Ramsey is known. He's not gotten to the point where teams make him play to his weaknesses. Until he does he shouldn't even be considered a possible starter. But, that won't stop you I'm sure.

[great28]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker

Ramsey has proven ALOT more than Hasselbeck. He's played in this offense for more than 5 times as many games, and in the vast majority of those games, has shown to be a better passer than Hasselbeck.

He's done this, while Hasselbeck has still had the advantage of playing while teams have yet to develop a good scouting report on his tendencies and abilities. Ramsey, has been scouted and teams know what he likes to do and what he struggles to do, yet he still makes plays and can move the chains. He's just a better QB, period.

Realistically, yeah he has proven more than Hasselbeck. That usually happens when you play more games. TH has only started 2 games which were lost by the defense in the last minutes, not to mention the rest of the season. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just neither has played far and above better than the other, plain and simple. PR has qualities that TH doesn't have as TH does PR. Next year when training camp starts, just be prepared for a hot competition.

[Henry]

G28 if you are HOPING that next offseason Spurrier decides to split snaps with the starters between Ramsey and Hasslebeck because Hasslebeck, after a few games looked ok and won a game against the self-destructing Giants, you are hoping for a world of trouble for our offense.

[great28]

Originally posted by Art

Great,

On one hand you are correct. Obviously there will be a QB controversy here. That's what happens in DC when fans are too inane to recognize the obvious and decide all the world's ailments could be solved by the backup.

Hasselbeck has some strengths as a player that surpass those of Patrick Ramsey. But, in no way shape or form is he as good a player as Ramsey. There should NOT be a controversy, but, fans like you will be too blindly foolish to realize that and YOU'LL be the ones who allow one to fester while reasonable minds try to talk you down off the ledge.

Hasselbeck is the reason we lost the Saints game. Just as Ramsey was the reason we lost the Carolina game. The simple inability to hit the wide open receiver -- or in Hasselbeck's case to even SEE the wide open receiver -- has left countless yards and points on the field. Against the Saints Hasselbeck was simply atrocious. I was stunned watching the game and seeing the whole field just how completely unaware he appeared time and again. And when he did finally see the open guys, his arm simply didn't have the necessary zip to get the ball there. Ramsey's would have.

He missed open guys and, worse, he took short completions over open longer ones. He's been MODESTLY efficient as Spurrier HAS made the game more simple for him than it was for Ramsey. This is obvious. There's less on Hasselbeck's plate than there was on Ramsey's.

What we do have in Hasselbeck is a competent backup QB. But, to even consider him a possible starter you are missing the obvious nature of an emerging QB. There is a "surprise" to a young QB. Ramsey benefitted from that earlier this year. There simply wasn't enough useful film from his rookie year to get a good book on him. To know his strengths and weaknesses. To know where to rush him from and what routes to take away to confuse him.

As that book has emerged you've seen Ramsey less decisive and confused. It's how Ramsey emerges from this that will define who he is as a QB. I've said this for two years now. It's how he plays doing the things teams know he does less well that will make him a great QB. If he fails at that he'll merely be an adequate QB.

With Hasselbeck there's not enough tape on him yet to determine what he is or what he isn't. He goes into every game with a great advantage over the defense because they can't know him as thoroughly as Ramsey is known. He's not gotten to the point where teams make him play to his weaknesses. Until he does he shouldn't even be considered a possible starter. But, that won't stop you I'm sure.

Art,

Obviously you are under the misconception that the fans start the qb controversies in DC. I don't call the plays, or set the roster I just call it like I see it. And what game were you watching?! The game I saw had Deuce rushing for 165 yards. Oh that's right it's the QB's fault. Never mind all those missed tackles on the field. The game I saw had Champ Bailey commit two pass interference penalties giving them 1st and goal on the one yd line. Oh but wait a minute, that was also Hasselbeck's fault. Man I tell for someone who plays qb, he sure does miss alot of tackles and commit alot of penalties. Truth is other than the two turnovers, which the int wasn't his fault (the reciever should have caught it), and the fumble which got knock out from behind, he had a pretty good game by my measure. Let me see, 22 of 42 for 231 yds and 1 fumble and 1 int. Yeah you're right that was a horrible game. Ramsey has NEVER had a game like that. or maybe he has. How about the Philly game? 25 of 50 for 258 yds and 2 ints. You rememger that game. That's the one where PR's cannon arm overthrows Coles in the endzone for the 2 pt conversion. Thats the game that made me love PR. And you know something? It wasn't Ramsey's fault for losing this game no more than it was TH for the loss against the Saints.

It's not totally outrageous for someone to think that there will be a QB controversy next year based on performance. For some reason you guys think that I believe TH is the better QB. That would be false. Pat does have the most potential, you just can't sleep on Tim.

[great28]

Originally posted by Henry

G28 if you are HOPING that next offseason Spurrier decides to split snaps with the starters between Ramsey and Hasslebeck because Hasslebeck, after a few games looked ok and won a game against the self-destructing Giants, you are hoping for a world of trouble for our offense.

No, I'm not hoping anything. What I'm saying is if TH wins out the season, you have to give it consideration. That means TH would have beaten the very teams PR lost to.

[Art]

28,

How can you be under the false impression that it is ANYONE BUT the fans who breed QB controversies? We are the people who do it. Coaches don't. We do. When we had Brad Johnson and Jeff George here there was a QB controversy because we kept talking about the possibilities. Turner didn't split snaps. He didn't feed the controversy. Johnson was his QB.

It is always the fans who create the controversy. Feed it and allow it to breed through media stories born of comments we make that the media reads. Maske, as an example, reads this site. Many reporters do. He'll see this thread and perhaps be of the mind that a QB controversy is possible because people like you are going to rally around one.

You're going to be so dense in how you understand the game that you'll fail to realize the failures of the adopted backup of the moment and so exaggerate his successes that a controversy is not only necessary, but natural. Yes, much of what the Saints did against the Redskins was directly Hasselbeck's fault. If Hasselbeck completes easy passes to WIDE OPEN receivers down the field, the game changes how it's played.

Obviously we can't do anything about bad calls by the officials on the second Bailey pass interference call, but, by that point, the game should have been over. If Hasselbeck had done his job and connected with the guys who were running free, the game would not have come down to that play. Deuce wouldn't have run wild, because they'd have to have come out of it.

I was at the game and couldn't believe the opportunities Hasselbeck left on the field. Even during the last game broadcast the announcers spoke of the missed touchdown throw to Coles on the fade that was haunting Hasselbeck. That was but ONE of a number of bad plays or unmade decisions that cost us the Saints game.

No, I don't think it was Ramsey's fault we lost the Eagles game. Watching that game it was clear the Eagles owned us. Had our number. Had everyone doubled. Knew where we were going with the ball. Ramsey got out of that game everything you could hope considering how locked down we were for much of the game. But, Ramsey did lose the Carolina game, despite 400+ yards. By not taking advantage of the plays that could change the outcome of the game early, we allowed it to be taken from us late.

Hasselbeck has done this at least against the Saints and I suspect against the Dolphins as well, though I didn't see that one up close so it's harder to make that judgement. It is COMPLETELY outrageous to think a controversy is even remotely possible given the difference in abilities between Hasselbeck and Ramsey to this point.

But, if Hasselbeck gets us to 7-9 or 8-8 people will forget those differences and assume there should be a controversy even where one shouldn't exist. And they won't understand why Ramsey gets all the reps in training camp and starts the preseason games. And the moment he has a mildly bad practice or game, people will think Hasselbeck is the cure.

And that's just sad.

[SkinsNumberOne]

Patrick was probably playing hurt earlier, and he certainly has seen more pressure than Tim has seen. After games against Dallas and Philly, we will have a better indication of Tim, our OL, and our offense in general (particularly against Philly, who appeared to shut down the Dallas WR group yesterday). Those will be telling games. Great28 appears to be saying that there will be a battle for the QB position next year. That's possible, of course. What it all boils down to is you put the best team out there, and that's what the Redskins will be doing I'm sure. Whoever is the better QB next year will probably be the one playing. Personally, I'm betting it will be Patrick- I think Tim is great... great personality, great wife, smart player... just great- but I think Patrick is still going to be the better QB next year. I think he played extremely well early in the season, and I think he will be even better next year. But we will, assuredly, see for sure next year. Any kinds of predictions beyond a simple statement of opinion (largely uninformed by most of us, I imagine) would probably seem a bit premature.

The coaches see a lot more of these QBs than we do... they make judgments on performance in practice, how much they understand the offense, performance in games... they will put the best QB out there this year, and they'll do it next year too.

[NoCalMike]

I don't get the "hassleback has come in and made things happened" statement. He led the team to beat a horrible Giants team. Whoooopee. I am telling you right now, Hassleback does not have the arm for Spurrier's offense. Hasslebeck is basically a better version of DW. Hasslebeck is a capable backup and I would like to see him signed longterm, but to point to a win over the Giants as evidence as to why he should be the starter is just ludicrous. Let's try and let Ramsey get some starts without bone chips/fragments in his foot and then see how he does. There is no controversy and only the naysayers are the ones even bringing it up.

[endzone_dave]

Unless you have a Bret Favre or a John Elway as your QB, you should always be evaluating if your 2nd string QB is better than your first. It sometimes happens. PR and TH are both young and inexperienced. You don't want to keep a closed mind and just go with you high draft choice.

But on the other hand you don't your team to have a total lack of stability.

I guess that's why Spurrier makes the big bucks.

[great28]

Originally posted by Art

28,

How can you be under the false impression that it is ANYONE BUT the fans who breed QB controversies? We are the people who do it. Coaches don't. We do. When we had Brad Johnson and Jeff George here there was a QB controversy because we kept talking about the possibilities. Turner didn't split snaps. He didn't feed the controversy. Johnson was his QB.

It is always the fans who create the controversy. Feed it and allow it to breed through media stories born of comments we make that the media reads. Maske, as an example, reads this site. Many reporters do. He'll see this thread and perhaps be of the mind that a QB controversy is possible because people like you are going to rally around one.

You're going to be so dense in how you understand the game that you'll fail to realize the failures of the adopted backup of the moment and so exaggerate his successes that a controversy is not only necessary, but natural. Yes, much of what the Saints did against the Redskins was directly Hasselbeck's fault. If Hasselbeck completes easy passes to WIDE OPEN receivers down the field, the game changes how it's played.

Obviously we can't do anything about bad calls by the officials on the second Bailey pass interference call, but, by that point, the game should have been over. If Hasselbeck had done his job and connected with the guys who were running free, the game would not have come down to that play. Deuce wouldn't have run wild, because they'd have to have come out of it.

I was at the game and couldn't believe the opportunities Hasselbeck left on the field. Even during the last game broadcast the announcers spoke of the missed touchdown throw to Coles on the fade that was haunting Hasselbeck. That was but ONE of a number of bad plays or unmade decisions that cost us the Saints game.

No, I don't think it was Ramsey's fault we lost the Eagles game. Watching that game it was clear the Eagles owned us. Had our number. Had everyone doubled. Knew where we were going with the ball. Ramsey got out of that game everything you could hope considering how locked down we were for much of the game. But, Ramsey did lose the Carolina game, despite 400+ yards. By not taking advantage of the plays that could change the outcome of the game early, we allowed it to be taken from us late.

Hasselbeck has done this at least against the Saints and I suspect against the Dolphins as well, though I didn't see that one up close so it's harder to make that judgement. It is COMPLETELY outrageous to think a controversy is even remotely possible given the difference in abilities between Hasselbeck and Ramsey to this point.

But, if Hasselbeck gets us to 7-9 or 8-8 people will forget those differences and assume there should be a controversy even where one shouldn't exist. And they won't understand why Ramsey gets all the reps in training camp and starts the preseason games. And the moment he has a mildly bad practice or game, people will think Hasselbeck is the cure.

And that's just sad.

Art,

let me give you my 2 cents so you can buy a clue. THE FANS ARE NOT THE ONES WHO MAKE THESE CONTROVERSIES. What are you talking about. All I said was there will be a QB controversy next year given the quick study and effectiveness of TH. As for who starts the controversies, one must look at 1 of 3 people. 1. The owner-they are the ones who sign the players and sometimes recommends them to the coach, at least ours does. The Brad Johnson and Jeff George controversy was started the moment JG was signed! Oh, Maske came to this site and saw someone talking about it and lo and behold we have a QB controversy?! This is just my opinion not fact also keep that in mind. I doubt very seriously I have that kind of power. 2. THE COACHES- Who the hell do you think sets the roster?! Let me tell you a secret, it ain't me. Let me share something with you-a controversy is not just indecision on who to start, it's a state of mind. Contrary to popular belief, or your belief for that matter, the controversy has nothing to do with the fans. It's between the two opposing parties at hand, one being PR the other being TH. Or the coach and the owner. Not the fans and the team. What ever gave you that idea? And last but not least, #3. The Player- If a player comes in and does really well in the absense of the starter, that usually starts a controversy without question. Look at the Marc Bulger/Kurt Warner situation: Who the hell knew that Bulger would come in and lead the team to victory the way he did? But if you're the Coach of the Rams, you ignore the talent and skill and you decide that there's no need for changes. I'll just ignore the fact my backup came in and threw for 300 yds and 2 touchdowns.

You would have a point if Hasselbeck was a 8 year veteran, but he's not. He's just as green if not greener than Ramsey, yet you like others on this site, think this kid can't improve over the offseason. And let me remind you TH has only been here for only a month or two, yet he knows enough of the playbook to start over Gilbran. That tells me the kid not only has the skills necessary to play, but is also very bright.

And what bull:pooh: about everything being TH's fault in the loss to New Orleans. Art, will you just listen to yourself?! You actually blamed TH for Deuce being able to run rampant on our defense! Last I checked Tim played offense, not defense. If the defense learns to stop somebody and stop being out of place, then maybe we can stop somebody better than the Giants.

Did you actually look at the Philly game? They did not own us! We owned ourselves! That was the first game where we commited so many bonehead mistakes, that a high school team could have beaten us. We finally got things going at the end of the game where unfortunately Ramsey overthrows Coles in the endzone.

If we end up 7-9 or 8-8 that means TH will have out performed Ramsey this year given the fact that Ramsey lost to the teams we have yet to play a second time.

To end this novel, I will say this, you have to be in DENIAL, or blind to think TH doesn't have a chance next year. Being about the same age with the amount of potential Tim has, it's damn near a given. Now I didn't say Tim would win the starting job, but who knows?

[Big Easy]

I hate to get involved in someone else's fight, but for heaven's sake watch the last throw in the Philly game. Then explain to me how Ramsey could have gotten that ball to Coles with Jansen's man there, arms up, in the passing lane. Maybe he could have rolled out, but then Coles isn't open anymore and it's a scramble play. I watched that play 3 or 4 times when it happened and I'm telling you, you can't say that was an unforced error. And yes, I remember Ramsey took the blame for it. But watch the freakin' tape.

[NoCalMike]

I think what a lot of folks are forgetting in this thing also is that Ramsey was not expected to light the world on fire this season. This season was only going to add up to his approx. 19th start by the end of the season(maybe a few more) That is still NOTHING to go by as of yet. Ramsey was plenty good and promising for where he was in terms of a career. Ramsey STILL doesn't have 16 starts under his belt. Now Hassleback has played pretty well for his situation as well, but there has also been major differences in gameplans with Hassleback in there. How many 30+yd bombs are being called with Hassleback in? How many times did we see 7-8 straight pass plays called with Super Tim in there? The playcalling has been modified to suit Hassleback's strengths and to hide his weaknesses. I am telling you right now, We would could lose the game next week against the cowboys for no other reason then Hassleback having a noodlearm. Remeber the thanksgiving game last year? Mr. DW was the QB and was ok for a half, but Dallas's zone defense is played well by them and can eat a weak-armed QB alive. To beat Dallas's tough zone, you NEED a QB that can spread the ball out and force Dallas to break character. Running the ball a lot also helps. Our gameplan against the Giants was 100% better the 2nd time around this year. Lets see if the coaching staff does the same modifications for our plan of attack with the Cowboys/Eagles games in the coming weeks.

[great28]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

I don't get the "hassleback has come in and made things happened" statement. He led the team to beat a horrible Giants team. Whoooopee. I am telling you right now, Hassleback does not have the arm for Spurrier's offense. Hasslebeck is basically a better version of DW. Hasslebeck is a capable backup and I would like to see him signed longterm, but to point to a win over the Giants as evidence as to why he should be the starter is just ludicrous. Let's try and let Ramsey get some starts without bone chips/fragments in his foot and then see how he does. There is no controversy and only the naysayers are the ones even bringing it up.

NoCalMike,

Just for your info, I started this site back on 1 Dec., not today.

Remember when PR started last year? Can you honestly say that PR started off better than TH? Don't get me wrong, Ramsey has developed into a fine QB, and will someday be great. But the whole premise of this site was basically to state that The starting position could be up for grabs NEXT YEAR if his performance continues to improve. I never said once that TH should have the starting position. All this is, is just pure opinion. And like everybody here, I too have an a$$hole.:laugh:

[great28]

Originally posted by Big Easy

I hate to get involved in someone else's fight, but for heaven's sake watch the last throw in the Philly game. Then explain to me how Ramsey could have gotten that ball to Coles with Jansen's man there, arms up, in the passing lane. Maybe he could have rolled out, but then Coles isn't open anymore and it's a scramble play. I watched that play 3 or 4 times when it happened and I'm telling you, you can't say that was an unforced error. And yes, I remember Ramsey took the blame for it. But watch the freakin' tape.

Like I said earlier, I don't blame Ramsey for that loss. He's the reason we were as close as we were. The only thing he could have done, as far as I can remember is maybe take a little off of it, and throw it more towards the right sideline. That's, as far as I can recall.

[FROSTY28]

TH has been on our roster for six weeks and had never taken a snap in a NFL before the Dallas game. For him to do anything else than embarrass himself would have been impressive -- the fact that he's put us in a position to win three games while showing the poise of a veteran is downright amazing. I mean, look at what Doug Johnson did for the Falcons this year. In my opinion, this whole thing is win-win for us. We'll now be able to go into next season without worrying about what happens if PR goes down -- it will be "when he goes down" if he doesn't learn to get rid of the ball quicker -- and concentrate on other, bigger problems, like finding someone who can rush the passer.

[PCS]

S.S. on his show this P.M. (from another thread and which I listened too).

Q: Will Ramsey be the starter when he recovers

A: Patrick is the starter, Tim is here to help out

Q: Will there be open competition during the off-season at the QB position

A: No, I didn’t say that, Patrick is our starter. You would hope to have healthy competition at every position, but baring the unforeseen, Patrick is our guy.

Simple as that. Matter of fact, my impression from S.S.'s tone was that he absolutely behind Patrick being the starter no matter how well Tim plays. No controversy. Nor much of a chance.

Speaking of which. Everything you stated above great28 about controversies are things that generate the potential for controversy but are not by themsleves or added up the controversy itself. Oh, maybe that can be interpreted that those things "start the contoversy", but in actualality they merely set the atmosphere. Simply put, the controversies are generated and maintained by the fans and the media. Coaches and owners, as one example will show, may use the controversy as a motivational tool sometimes, but overall, the honus is on the fans. With the media guiding the storm because they know fans are going to go with it.

Case in point

"History suggests that quarterback controversies are generally hyped up by the media - it provides an interesting story in the off-season. But Policy sees the current situation in Cleveland as motivation for Tim Couch to step up his game. "

Another example

As Mark Richt was about to conclude post game remarks to his team late Saturday night, he paused and said, ''One more thing, men. ... We don't have a quarterback controversy on this team.''

His players responded, almost in unison, ''No sir, coach.''

But there will likely be one.

The fans and the media will see to that.

Another one

"Well this is no fun. I mean, where's the controversy? Where's the turmoil? Isn't anybody going to start undermining anybody? If this keeps up, how in the world can you expect the media and fans in Chicago to take sides on a quarterback issue that isn't an issue?"

Could go on but there are just too many examples that say or imply the same thing. Quarterback contoversies are the stuff of the fans and media.