Big Easy Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 From what I saw, there's no question that the plan was, if not scaled back, at least scaled down. I didn't count them, but there had to be a dozen screens and quite a few short throws to TEs and RBs. I think Haselbeck could be an effective WCO passer, kind of a poor man's Jeff Garcia. But when he had to go down the field, you saw the difference. He hit a couple of nice throws that traveled more than 10 yards downfield, but he floated and missed a few that appeared to be good decisions but just poor execution. The missed fade to Coles had my heart in my throat, because Coles ran by our flailing CB and would have scored had the ball been placed in the field of play. The Saints didn't blitz much today because they figured Hasselbeck couldn't beat them if they just played their coverage packages. If he continues to play and shows the ability to consistently hit throws down the field, you'll see teams start to come after him the way they did Ramsey. Overall I thought he looked competent, but if your staff up there decides to have an open competition off of the last two weeks' performances, I've got to figure that means there's a new coach in town and the WCO is the new offense he's running. Otherwise it seems like a squirrely idea. But Ramsey will survive that competition if he's healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyG3 Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Ramsey is the starter. Period. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Big, don't confuse poor decision making with poor play-calling. The short passes were there for patrick too, he just chose to go deep. Also, Ramsey had plenty of threestep drops, it's just that hasselbeck drops three and throws. Ramsey took three steps and planted, then looked, then waited, then whap! -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyGator Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 I'll give Ramsey the benefit of the doubt with the broken foot, but he hasn't played well for four quarters this year. I've seen a scaled back fun n gun for most of this year. That will change when the number of injuries decreases and the team builds chemistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&G Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 No quarterback controversy. Patrick is the starting QB and there's not even a question about it. I mean no disrepect to Tim but comparing him favorably to Pat Ramsey is bizarre in the extreme as the responses to the premise of this thread seem to bear out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Ramsey is the starter when healthy. However I hope he is watching Tim being able to get rid of the ball fast. I did notice that they don't trust his arm to much by not going for the hail mary at the end of the second quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. D Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 the important thing hasselbeck has done is to NOT lose the games he has played in. He has managed the game well. He kept drives going by getting time inthe pocket hitting underneath recievers....If our TE could catch and "five-oh" did not have that nickname for a reason and IF TH had a bit of support from the Defense we would have a few more wins under our belt. TH is good enough to win and that is all that matters. Ramsey I feel was doing what some other players are trying to do and that is attempting to win the game by themselves by forcing things and taking risks that have a poor chance of succeeding (ie holding the ball too long to make a big play..) We have a TEAM problem not a QB problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Jumbo Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 How many teams has TH been through? If he is really that good, why wasn't he with a team when we picked him up? I know there are good QB's out there that have to be found (Warner when he first went to the Rams, and where is he now?) I think we should keep Ramsey on the sideline for the rest of the season to heal up his ankle. That'll give Hasselbeck time to prove to everyone whether he is starter material or not. But in DC, Ramsey is the man. Ramsey is smart and will learn from his mistakes. The game will slow down for him and he'll learn to look where the blitz is coming from. Those are things that come with experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 If there's one thing that has been shown time and time again in this league, it's that it's far easier to come in off the bench and have a good game or two than it is to be the full-time starter. Off the top of my head, Bubby Brister, Randal Cunningham, Gus Frerotte, Jim Harbaugh, Doug Flutie, Pete Mitchell, Rob Johnson, Danny Kannell and Tommy Maddox come to mind as examples of QBs that took over mid-season and looked great, only to crash and burn as The Man. Hell, Jeff George came in off the bench in 2000 and looked like a saviour here. It means nothing. Nothing. Nada. Zip. The reason Ramsey is so well thought of around here is that even after being given the job of first game, full-time starter, he STILL made plays and won games for us. He's got whatever it is that a starter needs to have. Hasslebeck has proven he can come in for a game or two and our offense won't spike itself. That's great. That's a backup's JOB. But just because our backup does his job properly does not mean we need to whip up a QB controversy. Bad teams do that. Bad coaches do that. Maybe your point is that the Redskins are a bad team with a bad coach. And that's hard to argue against. But if you are saying Hasslebeck DESERVES to be given a shot to win the starting job, based on the fact that he's led our team to two close losses, I'd say that's reactionary and extremely short-sighted. But that's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xanathos19 Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Defiately sign the guy to sure up the position. Put it up for grabs enxt year, but not this year...if Ramsey is healthy, he shoudl start this year. It is interesting that TH got hit once yesterday, and wasn't sacked...you know that wouldn't have happened if PR was in there...but PR has shown to much just to be demoted just like that. Let the kids work together, and let them fight it out next year. It could be worse...we could have gay-a$$ Kordell as our back-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great28 Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by B&G No quarterback controversy. Patrick is the starting QB and theres not even a question about it. I mean no disrepect to Tim but comparing him favorably to Pat Ramsey is bizarre in the extreme as the responses to the premise of this thread seem to bear out. Doesn't seem quite so bizarre now does it. If you think about it, we could be 7-6 right now if only the defense didn't self destruct in the 4th quarter the last 2 games. Although I do believe Patrick will inevitably be our starter next year, I don't think he will come into camp the automatic starter. There will be lots of evaluation on both guys. Don't fret. This would be good for the team in that both QB's would be forced to be at the top of their games when the season starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 It still seems pretty bizarre G28. Beating a injury-decmiated team in complete self-destruct mode is nice, but hardly a decent measuring stick for our QBs. If you think about it, we could be 7-6 if the defense didn't self destruct in overtime of the first Giants game and the fourth quarter of the Panthers game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great28 Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by Henry It still seems pretty bizarre G28. Beating a injury-decmiated team in complete self-destruct mode is nice, but hardly a decent measuring stick for our QBs. If you think about it, we could be 7-6 if the defense didn't self destruct in overtime of the first Giants game and the fourth quarter of the Panthers game. I'm just saying that you have to give credit where it's due. We often put too much blame on quarterbacks for losing games and all the credit for winning them. He's done his part to get us in position to win all of the games he's started, yet no one thinks he can be a good qb in this league. Let's just see how he ends this season before we make a blanket judgement on his abilites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 So far, the only people making blanket judgements are the ones who think Hasslebeck should be given a shot to start based on three whole games. That's pretty much the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTrainSkinsFan Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Ramsey is the starter, of course, and I don't think there should be any QB contraversy right now. However... If T. Hass can get the job done against a blitz-happy, win-needy, Dallas team next week, I think that we can't help but start to think about Tim as a contender for the starting job...that's just football folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by Henry It still seems pretty bizarre G28. Beating a injury-decmiated team in complete self-destruct mode is nice, but hardly a decent measuring stick for our QBs. If you think about it, we could be 7-6 if the defense didn't self destruct in overtime of the first Giants game and the fourth quarter of the Panthers game. Off-topic point here, but we'd also be 7-6 if our offense could put points on the board after multiple turnovers forced by our Defense. Yesterday, Fox showed a stat where we'd produced 9 pts on 8 turnovers the past 3 games. As for Hasselback, he's doing a good job. But no way he supplants Patrick unless the Redskins were to open 0-4 or 0-5 next season. Patrick is the man and has shown too much promise to not have earned the starter's spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 If Spurrier thought TH could be the #1 guy, don't you think PR would be on IR right now? If there is a chance Patrick can play, Spurrier wants him to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Hasselbeck has done a good job of filling in for Ramsey. But I have yet to see him show the type of ability Ramsey has. He lacks the ability to make plays with his arm, and he puts our recievers at a disadvantage on deep passes when he lacks the arm strength to take advantage of our recievers' separation. I'll admit he's better at adjusting to where the blitz was coming from, and hitting the short passes. For Ramsey, he'll develop the feel for the blitz and putting touch on his passes with experience. It all comes down to which quarterback will a productive starting quarterback 3 years down the road. Can any of us say Hasselbeck will be a better QB than Ramsey at that point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyG3 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I'd rather see Ramsey learn to get rid of the ball faster, than go with Hasselbeck. Timmy did have a couple of Wuerffel-looking thrown in there. No controversy. Ramsey is our starter. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newera Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Here's my take: I'm not going to committ either way yet. I would like to have Tim close out the year so he can be better evaluated. It can only help us going into next year. Plus, we have two games against two potential playofff teams, Dallas and Philly. So we are certain to get those teams best efforts. We have a chance to knock Dallas further down and keep Philly from having home field advantage. What's more, We've done poorly in the division since Spurrier has been here, and I think both games (even Chicago a team playing better) will tell us a lot about Hasselbeck. Ramsey has played 16 games. We know what we have in Ramsey. Plus, they are such different quarterbacks. Ramsey is slower with reads, but attacks more downfield. Tim is faster with reads, and seems adept at the short passing game. I like Tim. I could immediatly tell in the Dallas game when he came in and completed two straight passes that he was faster then Ramsey. Patrick has to speed up his game. And still has yet to show an ability to consistently beat the bliz. Yet, I think Patrick will learn a lot from watching Tim. Whereas, I don't think Tim learns as much watching Patrick. However, I'm not just going say Patrick is our starter. That's foolish. Look what Bulger has done in St. Louis coming in for Warner. Look at Bledsoe and Brady. Bledsoe, big guy strong arm. The number one pick. The man. Brady is just better. And know we know he is. The team rallied around Brady. That took balls for Belliacek to make that decision. However, he trusted his eyes. More proof of teams not letting things play themselves out. We draft Shuler. Give him all the money. We're patient. We try and force the issue. Howevever, he get's beat out by Ferrotte. Shuler is released. We think Ferrote is the next coming of Aikman. Teams figure out how to play him. Once the book is out on in the NFL, you better adjust or your game will level off. That's were we are with Patrick. Yet, on the team we had a third string quarterback named Trent Green. You heard of him right? He stayed third about three years before finally supplanting Ferrotte. Moral of story: Green has proven to be the best quarterback of the bunch and was a late pick. Yet, he was always on our team. Sure he got to sit. Tim is that same type. Bounced around and late cuts several times. Just because you bounce around doesn't mean that you can't play. He was a late cut with Philly this year. All I'm saying is I'm not making any blanket statement yet. We are fortunate to have two young diametrically different quarterbacks on this team. Competition should keep them both on their P's and Q's. Personally I would like to evaluate the Hasselbeck and the team these last three games against hungry teams -- blitz happy teams and then we will know a whole lot more about Hasselbeck. We may come out thinking "Yes Ramsey is definately better." However, until then, I don't know. It's all comes down to who is more efficient running Spurrier's offense. And, what the ball coach thinks. If the decision comes down to sit Ramsey the rest of the year, I think that tells me they are interested in evaluating Tim some more. What you have to be impressed about with Hasselbeck (even if everything is curbed down -- which I don't necessarily think that it is. He's more of a ball control quarterback anywayl) is that kid has done well c onsidering the circumstance. It's been a crash course and he has done admirable. Live fire against Dallas and Philly will tell us a lot. I think he deserves to finish out. If Ramsey tries to come back I think it's because he doesn't want Tim to get any momementum. (That would be my thinking). It's not about grit and guts. Sometimes Favre does more damage to his team trying to keep his streak alive then he does playing. Plus, our team didn't fall off like Atlanta's did when Vick left. Since Ramsey has not played we've been in winnable games. At this point, Ramsey really needs to get his surgery and learn from Tim. He's not going to be that much better at this point with a bad foot that teams know about. Plus, watching Tim will only help make him speed up his game. If he does that, he will win the competition. Ramsey has Peyton Manning potential. (That is just potential at this point). He just needs to learn to read and set up faster. That's the major advantage Hassellbeck has over him right now. Pocket presence, set up, read and release. I mean our sacks have dropped almost 70% with Tim at the helm. That cannot be discounted. We will see. Let it play out. The cream will rise. However we look at it, it helps the Skins. People laughed at Fred Smith when he said he wanted to start an "Overnight Courier Biz." They ain't laughing nowl It's about this team finishing strong with some momentum. If it's lead by Tim, then fine. The Skins do that -- next year should be interesting. NewEra PS. Plus his wife is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Someone shut this guy up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great28 Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by Henry So far, the only people making blanket judgements are the ones who think Hasslebeck should be given a shot to start based on three whole games. That's pretty much the point. Maybe you need to look at the subject of this post. I'm saying if this guy comes in next year and looks good in training camp and preseason games, there will be second thoughts on who should start. I mean shouldn't the best player play? Please don't get me wrong, I think Patrick is the man just like everybody else. But what separates me from the rest is I'm open for competition. They are both young qbs that haven't proved a whole lot. You'd think PR was a two time Super Bowl champ reading these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 The comparison of Warner/Bulger with Ramsey/Hasselbeck is a bad one. Warner was playing horribly, Ramsey wasn't. That decision was made simply because Bulger became the better QB, we have seen no signs of that happening here. Hasselbeck has been playing in the WCO before coming here. So basically, he's using his experience from that system to run this offense. It's the opposite of Ramsey has been taught. So although it looks like Tim has quicker reads, Spurrier is really just accomodating his style of play. It also helps that Tim has recieved better pass protection than Ramsey was a month ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by great28 Maybe you need to look at the subject of this post. I'm saying if this guy comes in next year and looks good in training camp and preseason games, there will be second thoughts on who should start. I mean shouldn't the best player play? Please don't get me wrong, I think Patrick is the man just like everybody else. But what separates me from the rest is I'm open for competition. They are both young qbs that haven't proved a whole lot. You'd think PR was a two time Super Bowl champ reading these threads. Ramsey has proven ALOT more than Hasselbeck. He's played in this offense for more than 5 times as many games, and in the vast majority of those games, has shown to be a better passer than Hasselbeck. He's done this, while Hasselbeck has still had the advantage of playing while teams have yet to develop a good scouting report on his tendencies and abilities. Ramsey, has been scouted and teams know what he likes to do and what he struggles to do, yet he still makes plays and can move the chains. He's just a better QB, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great28 Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by Tarhog Off-topic point here, but we'd also be 7-6 if our offense could put points on the board after multiple turnovers forced by our Defense. Yesterday, Fox showed a stat where we'd produced 9 pts on 8 turnovers the past 3 games. As for Hasselback, he's doing a good job. But no way he supplants Patrick unless the Redskins were to open 0-4 or 0-5 next season. Patrick is the man and has shown too much promise to not have earned the starter's spot. Good point! But let us not forget, PR started against Dallas who had 4 turnovers, not TH. PR also started against Carolina who also had 4 turnovers, not TH. That's a total of 8 t/o's in just 2 games that Patrick started. What promise are you talking about? Like I said before, the only thing people keep harping on is Pat's strong arm. If you take that away what do you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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