Weekly Smoot versus Bailey watch.

[Touchdown Portis!]

Very well put Art, I guess I find it hard to stay calm when I hear such ignorance. It was a very frustrating game, and now I get on the message board and have to read a bunch of horsesh!t. I have no way of proving to you that Smoot got ate up by Muhsin, nor the ratio Bailey is thrown at compared to Smoot. I know I watch every game and pay close attention to who gave up the pass. There is no way for me to argue with your ignorance. It will not be me laying down, but it is pointless to sit here and go back and forth with someone just looking to argue. You're wrong, and I hope in the coming weeks you pay attention to who gives up what. We know that Champ will be on the Saints Joe Horn, by far New Orleans best receiver, while Smoot wil mainly cover an ailing Stallworth or Jerome Pathone, and I'll bet Champ shuts his guy down for the most part.

I am not at all unprepared for this conversation, I am unprepared to respond to such mind baffling statements.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by xanathos19

But Oakton, oh, maybe I'm too blind to see that...after all, I don't watch the games you know...just check out the highlights on ESPN and sh!t. I'm out...unlike you, I have a real job and need to wake up tomorrow.

The truth hurts liars, Xanathos. Yes indeed.

Better get to sleep, Xanathos. I expect my trash to be picked up bright and early!!! :laugh:

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by bailey2456

Very well put Art, I guess I find it hard to stay calm when I hear such ignorance. It was a very frustrating game, and now I get on the message board and have to read a bunch of horsesh!t. I have no way of proving to you that Smoot got ate up by Muhsin, nor the ratio Bailey is thrown at compared to Smoot. I know I watch every game and pay close attention to who gave up the pass. There is no way for me to argue with your ignorance. It will not be me laying down, but it is pointless to sit here and go back and forth with someone just looking to argue. You're wrong, and I hope in the coming weeks you pay attention to who gives up what. We know that Champ will be on the Saints Joe Horn, by far New Orleans best receiver, while Smoot wil mainly cover an ailing Stallworth or Jerome Pathone, and I'll bet Champ shuts his guy down for the most part.

I am not at all unprepared for this conversation, I am unprepared to respond to such mind baffling statements.

Better be back here next week, chicken sh*t.

[Art]

P.S. Without even rewatching the game, an EASY way to determine the guy who's covering a guy is by looking at the tackles on a play. Sometimes you'll see a guy get beat so badly that someone else makes a play. That's true. But here's Muhammad's game last week.

1-10-CAR47 (8:20) J.Delhomme pass intended for M.Muhammad INTERCEPTED by F.Smoot at WAS 46. F.Smoot to CAR 19 for 35 yards (S.Davis).

3-5-CAR29 (1:52) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to CAR 40 for 11 yards (D.Terrell, J.Trotter).

1-10-WAS37 (15:00) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to WAS 9 for 28 yards (C.Bailey).

1-10-CAR33 (11:12) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to CAR 35 for 2 yards (F.Smoot; J.Armstead).

1-10-CAR27 (8:56) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to WAS 36 for 37 yards (J.Trotter).

1-10-WAS40 (:10) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad pushed ob at WAS 29 for 11 yards (D.Terrell).

1-10-WAS39 (13:42) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to WAS 9 for 30 yards (M.Bowen).

3-9-WAS9 (11:32) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to WAS 1 for 8 yards (J.Trotter; C.Bailey).

1-10-CAR20 (11:57) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to CAR 42 for 22 yards (M.Bowen, F.Smoot). FUMBLES (M.Bowen), RECOVERED by WAS-C.Bailey at WAS 48. C.Bailey to WAS 49 for 1 yard (B.Hoover).

1-10-CAR31 (8:15) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to WAS 29 for 40 yards (M.Bowen).

Now, what you see here is pretty simple really.

Smoot actually was involved in FOUR plays that Muhammed had. The first was an interception. The second was a two-yard gain. The third was a 22-yard play that a fumble came about. The fourth was the last play, the 40-yarder, where Smoot went for the ball and got beat and Bowen made the tackle.

Muhammed had a 28-yard gain on Bailey, as you see. And he had a 30-yarder that was across the middle where he whipped Terrell quickly and had the middle of the field to run down. Simply put, you have to KNOW this type of information before simply saying stuff.

As it turns out it appears Smoot was not on Muhammed all game afterall. Bailey was even on occasion. Sometimes it was a zone. Sometimes it was Terrell. Odd how that works.

[Art]

Originally posted by bailey2456

Very well put Art, I guess I find it hard to stay calm when I hear such ignorance. It was a very frustrating game, and now I get on the message board and have to read a bunch of horsesh!t. I have no way of proving to you that Smoot got ate up by Muhsin, nor the ratio Bailey is thrown at compared to Smoot. I know I watch every game and pay close attention to who gave up the pass. There is no way for me to argue with your ignorance. It will not be me laying down, but it is pointless to sit here and go back and forth with someone just looking to argue. You're wrong, and I hope in the coming weeks you pay attention to who gives up what. We know that Champ will be on the Saints Joe Horn, by far New Orleans best receiver, while Smoot wil mainly cover an ailing Stallworth or Jerome Pathone, and I'll bet Champ shuts his guy down for the most part.

I am not at all unprepared for this conversation, I am unprepared to respond to such mind baffling statements.

Bailey,

There IS a way to prove what you've said. Watch the games over and put up the information. For example, put up the play by play of Muhammed's game and show how Smoot was consistently beaten. Bet you can't. I can, however, show he wasn't, and just did. That's actual observed knowledge.

Perhaps you're just a child who happens to really like Bailey and won't allow anything even remotely negative to be said about him. But, grow up son. It's true he's been thrown at more than Smoot. He was last week against Carolina as well. I'm talking about in man coverage, not zone.

And you can count up this data in every game the two have played. Just watch. See who was in coverage. Write it down. It's not hard to prove your point. But, since your point can't be proved, given it's not true, I suspect it's impossible, and that's why you don't want to continue.

I understand a graceful retreat. Nice to see you've executed one so well.

[Touchdown Portis!]

Yes, they did do zones, but as you know when the ball is thrown up and two corners are in the same area the free one will go to the ball. I appreciate the effort you went through to try and prove me wrong, but I still strongly disagree with you. Champ was almost solely on Steve Smith b/c he's their big play WR. Champ makes lots of tackles, he made tackles on Ricky Williams tonight, does that mean he covered him? No, it doesn't.

Oakton - i don't know how you're calling me a chicken-sh!t, you have not made a point yet, you've just been riding your boyfriends back.

Art, is your way of out-classing me on this conversation going on my posts and editing them with bullsh!t? I see. Now that you've taken up for your boy you can get off the internet and go rub one out to your autographed Fred Smoot jersey.

[Art]

Bailey,

As I said, sometimes a guy makes a tackle on a play in which he's not the primary guy in coverage. Obviously that happens. But, what you can't do is pretend to actually see Muhammad's game last week and STILL disagree with me that Smoot was on him all game. You can't possibly disagree because even without SEEING the game you should be able to recall the plays in question and remember who actually was in coverage. Bowen wasn't beaten for a 30 and a 40 yarder. Terrell and Smoot were. But, seeing the plays listed out should have you recall them and remember who was.

You clearly don't. And perhaps your failure to remember simple things like this allow you to disagree with reality, but, that doesn't make you correct. Just makes you ignorant and stubborn. I don't mind stubborn. I do find ignorant sad when you've had it so kindly laid out for you.

I did edit your post where you resorted to "gay and gayer" as your most profound effort at a come back. I found the response to be amusing in the way an adult looks at a child who is in some way causing himself some abuse, but, as the post really was far out of line, you should be glad I only edited it. If the best you can do when you have been shown up is say, "Yeah, well you're gay," or some semblance, then, really, you should realize my way of outclassing you is by making you resort to such.

[Touchdown Portis!]

Oh, you dumb sh!t. Everytime I'm ready to sign off and go to bed, you say more ignorant sh!t. No, I am not going to watch the game again, write everything I see down and post it up here to please you. Even if I did, there would be know factual way to prove anything to you. You have this incredibly hard-on for Fred Smoot, and nothing will change your mind. You can keep making refferals to my age, but that has nothing to do with my knowledge of the skins. If you want to talk about age, it's almost 2 in the morning and you're a 33 year old man sitting here arguing with a "child". Maybe it's about time to look for a job and quit sitting around drinking whiskey, blaming society for the poor outcome of your life.

[SkinsNumberOne]

My impression is that early in the season Smoot was getting challenged more than Bailey. However, recently, it has been ridiculous how little respect Bailey has been getting- I do not think it is an indication of diminished skills on Bailey's part, but rather formation (if he is not in press coverage and the call is for a slant, they will probably throw against him with confidence, for example) and certainly also injury. Injury, I believe, is also playing some part in his inability to come up with the TO, but I think he has been more a shutdown CB but not a TO CB (which sometimes hurts, but if he's a true shutdown CB - and he hasn't been of late - then it's worth it). Only one receiver has consistently had Champ's number, Amani Toomer.

As I said, I would say recently Champ has certainly been challenged more. Has he been beaten with great frequency? No. Has he been beaten in bad situations? Yes, of course. Has he made other good plays though? Yes, some good open field tackles today, some were Miami series ending ones I believe. Smoot, at least once, was blocked out of a play due to a bad angle he took. I do agree of course (I would think) that of late, Smoot has been playing better than Champ, but seriously, it's hard to quantify things like that. I would say that there is almost no way you could argue that Smoot is *certainly* playing *worse of late* than Champ.

[Touchdown Portis!]

I agree on Amani Toomer has had Champs number.

[Art]

And, once again, Bailey, there is a way to factually prove yourself. That way is to factually account for the plays you're talking about. I have posted each of Muhammad's plays. Which of them do you recall Smoot was the specific man in coverage that I did not account for? You can prove it as well. You can rewind the tape and validate your position. Or you can beg off. You've chosen to beg off, and it's probably wise. You've just chosen to do so without actually admitting how incorrect you were and that's bad form.

So, do not be surprised by the fact that I'll point that out to you. You failed to prove your point about last week's game. I did prove you were wrong by simply outlining the plays Smoot was involved in. You've failed to counter that in any substantive way. Therefore you lose. You should say thanks for setting me straight. Or you should say, "I'm going to prove you wrong." What you can't do is say essentially that you don't know how to prove me wrong. I've outlined that method repeatedly. Watch the game son. That's all. You've even got the times outlined for you. All you have to do is fast forward and show how the play by play doesn't reveal Smoot's game long coverage of Muhammad.

It ought to be easy because on each of those plays you should be able to see Smoot is in coverage. That's proof. Have at it.

As for the time of the day, it's actually just nearly 1 a.m. here. Does that make you feel better? As for society's tragic treatment of me, I'll just have to grin and bear it a bit longer. As pathetic as my life must obviously be, at least I've proven you incorrect as to the coverage on Muhammad last week. And, I've proven you won't take me up on a bet to validate who has had more balls thrown his way this year.

And, ultimately, I wonder what is more sad. I recall being 22. I recall being up often at nearly 2 a.m. I rarely recall that time being spent on the net being drilled for not knowing something. Society has treated me terribly you'd say, witnessed by actually being awake at 1 a.m. and on the net. What's that say about you, young buck?

[bishtw]

Come on Art, you should know better.

All you have to do is say rubber, rubber, glue, glue what ever you bounces off me and sticks to you.

That will show him.

[SkinsNumberOne]

Just remembered that terrible angle that Champ took at one point too. But I didn't intend to say anything except I did hear (and see) Champ make both good plays and bad. Is it damning that Champ was challenged frequently? Yes, in some respects, for certain- he himself considers himself a shutdown CB (he said so after week 2 or thereabouts, I think right before the Giants burned him unfortunately for him). I don't think it damns him as deeply as some seem to think. It seems from reading this thread we all at least agree that we do have 2 CBs, and I think it seems we all would like them signed again. Who is #1 and #2, I don't know, I'm certainly happy we've got 2 CBs. I'd take this pair probably over most any other pair in the league (anyone want to offer me a better pair, let me know, I can't think of one off the top of my head right now who I would prefer, but then I'm in a bit of a daze from that game still).

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by bailey2456

Oakton - i don't know how you're calling me a chicken-sh!t, you have not made a point yet, you've just been riding your boyfriends back.

I suppose you are too stupid to realize that I challenged you to come back next week to see that your prediction of Smoot's utter failure and Champ's victorious play will probably not come to fruition. It's just so sad that our public educational system proves to be a categorical failure year after year - this time the failure is in reading comprehension.

Go back and read the post, you stupid ignoramus.

[Art]

Originally posted by SkinsNumberOne

My impression is that early in the season Smoot was getting challenged more than Bailey. However, recently, it has been ridiculous how little respect Bailey has been getting- I do not think it is an indication of diminished skills on Bailey's part, but rather formation (if he is not in press coverage and the call is for a slant, they will probably throw against him with confidence, for example) and certainly also injury. Injury, I believe, is also playing some part in his inability to come up with the TO, but I think he has been more a shutdown CB but not a TO CB (which sometimes hurts, but if he's a true shutdown CB - and he hasn't been of late - then it's worth it). Only one receiver has consistently had Champ's number, Amani Toomer.

As I said, I would say recently Champ has certainly been challenged more. Has he been beaten with great frequency? No. Has he been beaten in bad situations? Yes, of course. Has he made other good plays though? Yes, some good open field tackles today, some were Miami series ending ones I believe. Smoot, at least once, was blocked out of a play due to a bad angle he took. I do agree of course (I would think) that of late, Smoot has been playing better than Champ, but seriously, it's hard to quantify things like that. I would say that there is almost no way you could argue that Smoot is *certainly* playing *worse of late* than Champ.

Toomer is an aberration for Champ. Every corner has a guy he just can't handle. Toomer is that guy for Champ. Bryant may turn out being that guy for Smooty, though, we'll see. I don't hold Toomer against Champ because I know he just has his number. It happens.

You're right as well that early in the year Champ started strong. I agree with you that his struggles of late aren't from a dimishment of his skills. I think it's got to be mental. He's gotten beat in some tight coverages week after week. In every game since the Falcons game you can recall at least one play and often more than one where Champ is in OUTSTANDING coverage only to surrender a big play. He's got to be wondering what he has to do to get a break.

That big catch to Chambers could have been a touchdown the other way if it was two inches lower. It's just that now there's more to it than just happenstance. Teams see that Bailey gets a little lost in space, especially in the trail position, and that they can get away with some throws against him, and they are doing that to him more often than you'd like to see. The culmination of the plays against him have to be hitting his confidence in such a way as he's starting to play a little off or something.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by bailey2456

Maybe it's about time to look for a job and quit sitting around drinking whiskey, blaming society for the poor outcome of your life.

Actually, I think Art's preference is single malt scotch. :laugh:

And if he can afford $75+ a bottle scotch, he must be doing something right. :laugh:

[Art]

Originally posted by OaktonSkinsFan

Actually, I think Art's preference is single malt scotch. :laugh:

And if he can afford $75+ a bottle scotch, he must be doing something right. :laugh:

You're right Oakton. Smooth 18-year-old plus scotch is a thing to behold. As for doing something right, well, I married well. My goal is to be barefoot while she's pregnant .

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by Art

You're right Oakton. Smooth 18-year-old plus scotch is a thing to behold. As for doing something right, well, I married well. My goal is to be barefoot while she's pregnant .

Good for you, Art. Whatever it takes my man. :laugh:

[Henry]

Art, I thought I heard something about you marrying some rich woman.

[Posse81]

I read most of this thread and haven't seen anyone mention the fact that Champ was the only Redskin named to the SI mid-season All Pro team.

And don't bash SI, they didn't vote on the players, NFL scouts and front office personnel did. Champ is playing hurt and is still doing a pretty damn good job.

[OURYEAR#56]

FRANCHISE THE CHAMP.....NOW

[Art]

Posse,

Again, watch with your eyes, not with your ears. Stop listening to everyone telling you how good Bailey is and start watching for him to BE that good this year. He's been pretty damn good here. He's not doing that good a job now. And everyone rides him so hard that it's sometimes hard to realize that you can't reconcile his actual impact on games with the perception we are being spoon fed by the media.

[DieselPwr44]

Bailey is hyped more than any other player on the Skins. I tend to agree with Art in that Bailey is in a funk with the mental aspect of the game. I still do not think he's worth the money he's seeking. For an 18 Million + SB,we ought to see production in the way of INT's and maybe a td or two. In reality,opponents don't fear Bailey because he rarely makes them pay for testing him. :2cents:

[Bang]

Note..

After Johnson muffed the punt and gave the Dolphins the ball deep in our territory,, the Phins went directly at Champ on 4 of their five plays on the game winning drive.

They ran directly to his side (and to an open field) twice, and then threw on him twice.

Of course, it could be argued that on the touchdown run, Champ couldn't have caught him in time,, but if you're really worth all that money, then you damn sure better at least TRY to make it look good.

If he hadn't been such a snot about the contract I'd be much more forgiving.. but damn,, if you think you're worth so much more than the 55 mil they offered that you SNUB it rather than decline it,,, well, I do believe then it's on you to prove WHY... and so far this season , Champ looks like any other run of the mill CB in the league.

If you're the best, then it isn't in the opposition's gameplan to throw it up deep on you and let it hang, because they know you can't make a play on it. If you're the best, you don't get tested at all with the game on the line, let alone four straight plays.

If you're the best, you make those interceptions that hit your hands over the middle.

If you're the best.

~Bang

[Dr. D]

The emperor has no clothes!

The emperor haS NO clothes!