CNN: 2 Ebola patients returning to U.S.

[PeterMP]

Point blankly...

Should have Vinson flown?

Should have Doc Kingpin gone bowling?

Should have Duncan been even given opportunity to lie to get back into country?

1. No, but not because of concerns with somebody getting sick on the plane (which now were clearly unfounded as nobody got sick). She should have not left Dallas because if she would have gotten sicker in Cleveland than you would have had to deal with Ebola in Cleveland to. From a resource stand point keeping it contained in a region makes much more sense. A travel restriction is reasonable.

2. Yes. The chances of him passing Ebola on to people in that condition are so remotely small based on everything we know there was no good reason for him not to go bowling.

3. Yes because unless you are going to shut down all of Africa people such as him in some cases are going to try and come into the country somehow and if they are here illegally, it is going to be able to track them in terms of where they came from and even make it less likely that when they are sick that they will report it. Somebody traveling from Liberia to Mali to Kenya picking up documents that say they have been in Kenya for an extended period of time and coming to the US has got to be a part of the picture and a part of the concern.

Case after case we see people in Ebola in the public before they start to show major symptoms and nobody ends up getting sick.

At some point in time, you have to look at the evidence right in front of you.

[Bonez3]

Very, very low... Potentially zero... Shouldn't have travelled... People are gonna lie anyway.

It's fine man. But what it highlites is lack of respect for disease potential. I will note it is still regarded as 'suggestive' by most literature I read that transmission is low at these times. Keep rolling those dice (and frames).

I didn't even mention Hickox, who after being treated what I do agree is unfairly (but in the interest of public safety), still stick her thumb on nose to government requests. I mean, she was asked to keep low profile (I know she did what others in her risk class could do) by the Govt. she essentially told them to fly a kite.

This is the mentality that is dangerous.

It's all good. If we were mobilizing tens of thousands of volunteers, I would see the dangers in stricter measures. Right now we're mobilizing tens and hundreds. And based on their actions... I don't trust monitoring. Which I fully supported 2 months prior. And probably will support again.

The ability to be flexible and react to current climate is where my stance comes from. Not fear, not political, and not spoon fed to me from this or that nobel prize winner.

And yea, with the whopping 4 cases we haven't seen transmission into public. But, we certainly have evidence now of that... BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THE PUBLIC. Seriously, you wouldn't want to think bad thoughts if you were Vinson's neighbor on that plane.

If nothing else from a humanitarian standpoint. What do you think the family members felt during that 3 week monitoring.

[PeterMP]

Very, very low... Potentially zero... Shouldn't have travelled... People are gonna lie anyway.

It's fine man. But what it highlites is lack of respect for disease potential. I will note it is still regarded a 'suggestive' by most literature I read that transmission is low at these times. Keep rolling those dice (and frames).

I didn't even mention Hickox, who after being treated what I do agree is unfairly (but in the interest of public safety), still stick her thumb on nose to government requests. I mean, she was asked to keep low profile (I know she did what others in her risk class could do) by the Govt. she essentially told them to fly a kite.

This is the mentality that is dangerous.

It's all good. If we were mobilizing tens of thousands of volunteers, I would see the dangers in stricter measures. Right now we're mobilizing tens and hundreds. And based on their actions... I don't trust monitoring. Which I fully supported 2 months prior. And probably will support again.

The ability to be flexible and react to current climate is where my stance comes from. Not fear, not political, and not spoon fed to me from this or that nobel prize winner.

And yea, with the whopping 4 cases we haven't seen transmission into public. But, we certainly have evidence know of that... BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THE PUBLIC. Seriously, you wouldn't want to think bad thoughts if you were Vinson's neighbor on that plane.

If nothing else from a humanitarian standpoint. What do you think the family members felt during that 3 week monitoring.

 

This what the scientific literature says on the topic (from an earlier post of mine in this thread):

 

"No exposure during the incubation period was associated with additional increased risk, and there was no increased risk for conversing, sharing a meal, or sharing a bed with a sick person during the early phase of illness (table 2)."

 

Sharing a bed with person in the early phases of illness didn't increase the risk of getting Ebola.

 

SHARING A BED!

 

It is NOT highlighting a disrespect of the disease potential of the disease.  It is being rational with respect to the actual potential of the disease and not treating it like the basis of some post-apocalyptic movie because oh no some people are scared.

 

What do you think the people that are being told they have to put their lives on hold for 3 weeks because of other people's irrational fear and ignorance feel like?

 

What about considering their rights?

[Bonez3]

Price of doing business. That's a conscious decision one made (undoubtedly hero-like). Vinson's passenger did not consciously do that.

I agree with the transmission during these times is low. All I said is its still suggestive in some regards.

Again, it's all good Peter. I completely respect you and the opposite of my view. And the HUNDREDS (if that) that would unfortunately be more strictly monitored for next few months.

The climate on this issue for me changed once I learned of Vinson's flight, and Spencer's actions. It made me think of the post 9-11 Visa approval for Muhammad Atta. This guy mug was unmistakable. Yet a handful of 9-11 terrorists somehow got Visas or something ok'd a few weeks after the damn attack. Who is watching the watchmen. Just can't swallow everything that is fed to me if a sour taste is recognized repeatedly.

[PeterMP]

Price of doing business. That's a conscious decision one made (undoubtedly hero-like). Vinson's passenger did not consciously do that.

 

Being part of society includes risking contracting infectious diseases and currently that includesEbola.

 

That's a conscious decision made by people.

 

You don't want to take the chances go dig yourself a whole in the ground some where.

 

People's irrational and unjustified fears shouldn't be allowed to restrict the rights of others or none of us will have any rights left.

[China]

For anyone interested, here is the CDC's MMWR published this week that gives the methodology behind the dire projections as well as what exactly is needed to stop the outbreak.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6303a1.htm?s_cid=su6303a1_w

 

Here is the quick summary of that report if you just want the highlights and not the EbolaResponse model tool data details.  Also included are some Q & A's.

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/2014-west-africa/qa-mmwr-estimating-future-cases.html

 

That was quite the doomsday scenario they painted.  550,000 cases by January?  I guess some of the interventions are working because currently there are fewer than 15,000 cases.  Doesn't look like it'll come anywhere close to 550,000 by the end of January:

 

Ebola: Mapping the outbreak

 

The total number of reported cases is in excess of 14,000.

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) admits the figures are underestimates given the difficulty collecting the data and warns there could be as many as 20,000 cases by the end of November if efforts to tackle the outbreak are not stepped up.

 

 

 

Click on the link for the full article

[PeterMP]

 

That was quite the doomsday scenario they painted.  550,000 cases by January?  I guess some of the interventions are working because currently there are fewer than 15,000 cases.  Doesn't look like it'll come anywhere close to 550,000 by the end of January:

 

Ebola: Mapping the outbreak

 

The total number of reported cases is in excess of 14,000.

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) admits the figures are underestimates given the difficulty collecting the data and warns there could be as many as 20,000 cases by the end of November if efforts to tackle the outbreak are not stepped up.

 

 

Click on the link for the full article

 

It has been suggested and pointed out in this thread that there is a possibility that there is a level of contact/exposure/infection that results in at least some immunity, but doesn't cause the person to advance to the actual disease state.

 

Which then protects them from more extensive exposures in the future.

 

I strongly suspect now that we are going to find that is true.

[Bonez3]

Being part of society includes risking contracting infectious diseases and currently that included Ebola.

That's a conscious decision made by people.

You don't want to take the chances go dig yourself a whole in the ground some where.

People's irrational and unjustified fears shouldn't be allowed to restrict the rights of others or none of us will have any rights left.

Grin and bear it because Vinson had to make bridal party plans... Got it, now I'm a true American.

All my life I did long to somehow serve my country in civilian rank. I fantasized about jumping in front if car to save child, identifying terrorist plot... But alas, I can go down knowing Vinson's wedding went of without a hitch.

You know what, unph that shovel. Strike up the band maestro.

Well, for the first time I got a smile on my face in this thread.

But seriously, China's post is disturbing and I plan not to quibble anymore. Frankly, I'm ok with either route (although do not necessarily support my beliefs in an infallible tone). Treatment in Africa should be focus of topic and in my opinion the WHO should be mobilizing PAID professionals to the areas.

[twa]

It has been suggested and pointed out in this thread that there is a possibility that there is a level of contact/exposure/infection that results in at least some immunity, but doesn't cause the person to advance to the actual disease state.

 

Which then protects them from more extensive exposures in the future.

 

I strongly suspect now that we are going to find that is true.

 

or the immunity already is present in some, which I strongly suspect

both are likely but mutations keep on trucking.

[PeterMP]

or the immunity already is present in some, which I strongly suspect

both are likely but mutations keep on trucking.

 

Certainly a possibility.  Though for it to be very wide spread, I'd have to think that Ebola out breaks were more common than they are now.

[twa]

Certainly a possibility.  Though for it to be very wide spread, I'd have to think that Ebola out breaks were more common than they are now.

 

or different immune system responses are common and not a result of previous ebola outbreaks

 

then again it might be from a predecessor ages ago, the different symptoms and subject response 

 

we are getting a lot better data out of this mess at least(and hopefully a cure/vaccine)

[visionary]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/11/14/ebola-sierraleonedoctor.html?utm_content=general&utm_campaign=ajam&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow

Surgeon with Ebola to be transferred from Sierra Leone to US for care

 

A surgeon working in Sierra Leone who was diagnosed with Ebola will be flown to the Nebraska on Saturday for treatment, officials from Sierra Leone and the United States said.

 

The Omaha-based Nebraska Medical Center will treat Dr. Martin Salia for Ebola, Sierra Leone's chief medical officer, Dr. Brima Kargbo, told The Associated Press on Friday. 

 

The U.S. Embassy said Salia himself was paying for the expensive evacuation. Salia is a general surgeon who had been working at Kissy United Methodist Hospital in Sierra Leone’s capital, Freetown.

 

Patients, including mothers who hours earlier had given birth, reportedly fled from the 60-bed hospital after news of the Ebola case emerged, the United Methodist News Service reported.

 

The hospital was closed on Tuesday after Salia tested positive, and he was taken to the Hastings Ebola Treatment Center near Freetown, the church news service said. Kissy hospital staffers will be quarantined for 21 days.

 

A citizen of Sierra Leone, the 44-year-old Salia lives in Maryland and is a permanent U.S. resident, according to a person in the U.S. with direct knowledge of the situation. The person was not authorized to release the information and spoke on condition of anonymity. 

 

The doctor will be the third Ebola patient at the Omaha hospital and the 10th person with Ebola to be treated in the U.S. The last, Dr. Craig Spencer, was released from a New York hospital on Tuesday.

 

The Nebraska Medical Center said Thursday it had no official confirmation that it would be treating another patient, but that an Ebola patient in Sierra Leone who would be evaluated for possible transport to the hospital would arrive Saturday afternoon. 

[Special K]

So Bonez03. What's your solution? Mandatory quarantine enforced by the National Guard?

[Bonez3]

So Bonez03. What's your solution? Mandatory quarantine enforced by the National Guard?

Pretty rude discourse being I pretty much only respected opposing view.

And no, it's a monitored transfer. And I fully supported the first 2 patients transferred back here in the summer. Stating openly than, concerns should not be on controlled treatment. But rather those coming domestically or at high risk.

I hate to make this a me vs you. I simply highlite the FAILINGS of those under monitoring. It simply allows for higher rate of transmission...IMO. I'm not the Ebola czar.

I didn't want to quibble any more, but you essentially called me out.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So Bonez03. What's your solution? Mandatory quarantine enforced by the National Guard?

 

That's actually ABQCOWBOY's plan.

 

Keep it straight.

[Special K]

Grin and bear it because Vinson had to make bridal party plans... Got it, now I'm a true American.

All my life I did long to somehow serve my country in civilian rank. I fantasized about jumping in front if car to save child, identifying terrorist plot... But alas, I can go down knowing Vinson's wedding went of without a hitch.

You know what, unph that shovel. Strike up the band maestro.

Well, for the first time I got a smile on my face in this thread.

But seriously, China's post is disturbing and I plan not to quibble anymore. Frankly, I'm ok with either route (although do not necessarily support my beliefs in an infallible tone). Treatment in Africa should be focus of topic and in my opinion the WHO should be mobilizing PAID professionals to the areas.

I don't know if you read the article I posted earlier in this thread outlining the issues the WHO faces in mobilizing response to the Ebola outbreak.  In short, the organization's infectious disease and Ebola response unit has been stripped down to the bare minimum due to decreased UN funding.  They do not have the resources to send out teams of PAID professionals to deal with this situation.  The WHO's funding shortage is a major reason this outbreak has taken foothold and blown up in West Africa.

[Bonez3]

I don't know if you read the article I posted earlier in this thread outlining the issues the WHO faces in mobilizing response to the Ebola outbreak. In short, the organization's infectious disease and Ebola response unit has been stripped down to the bare minimum due to decreased UN funding. They do no have the resources to send out teams of PAID professionals to deal with this situation. The WHO's funding shortage is a major reason this outbreak has taken foothold and blown up in West Africa.

I understand and that they are still actively recruiting. This is something we completely agree upon. The IN should devote all available funds needed, seems to me that is not being done, and I suspect on some degree it's because of where it's at and prior outbreaks that didn't require such resources.

I won't excuse nations not funneling billions into this. We should treat this as the biggest disaster on earth at the moment with the biggest global impact.

Frankly, the monitoring discussion was a mere distraction to what we both know is the bigger issue.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Pretty rude discourse being I pretty much only respected opposing view.

 

 

Isn't the issue that you are calling the view "the opposing view" which means there are two equally valid viewpoints?

 

I mean the one viewpoint is follow the standard protocol - which has shown to work since the only cases of transferrance in the US were to medical personnel working in highly contagious conditions who were for whatever reason not following the proper internal protocols - or to create a new draconian protocol that tramples on civil liberties and puts tremendous pressure on civil authorities based on irrational fears rather than medical data.

 

I don't see this as point-counterpoint.

 

I see it as point- "Ahhhhhhhhh..................we're all going to die........................Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

[Bonez3]

Isn't the issue that you are calling the view "the opposing view" which means there are two equally valid viewpoints?

I mean the one viewpoint is follow the standard protocol - which has shown to work since the only cases of transferrance in the US were to medical personnel working in highly contagious conditions who were for whatever reason not following the proper internal protocols - or to create a new draconian protocol that tramples on civil liberties and puts tremendous pressure on civil authorities based on irrational fears rather than medical data.

I don't see this as point-counterpoint.

I see it as point- "Ahhhhhhhhh..................we're all going to die........................Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

I always appreciate you're attempt to stir things. But the proper protocol FWIW, changed shortly after those transmissions.... Which was one of the driving forces that led me to realize its not bad to question the answers.

If the science was so sound in every aspect in Ebola care, why a change from CDC on PPE shortly after infections of nurses?

Did you ever look up to someone or something as almost all-knowing and all-powerful. Than an event occurs and they're infalabilty is refuted or exposed as something less. Than you look further and see maybe its not a well oiled machine as before.

But you're speculation that my stance is based on fear is, to me, a clear attempt to disturb. It's pretty much what I've only ever see you do.

If you read any of my prior posts, my concerns lay in the preparedness of our healthcare system in training and treatment.

But again, I interpret about 99% of your posts as 'let me see if I can get under this or that persons skin'. But, maybe I'm speculating

[visionary]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/18/nebraska-doctor-ebola-died-treatment-delays

Surgeon who died of Ebola in US hospital experienced treatment delays

 

A surgeon who contracted Ebola in his native Sierra Leone did not receive aggressive treatment until nearly two weeks after he first started showing symptoms – a delay that doctors said probably made it impossible for anyone to save his life.

 

Dr Martin Salia was in the 13th day of his illness when he reached Omaha on Saturday. It took three days for him to be formally diagnosed after an initial test for Ebola came back negative and then another five days to be flown to the United States.

 

By the time the 44-year-old Maryland man got to the University of Nebraska Medical Center in Omaha, the deadly virus had done too much damage, shutting down Salia’s kidneys and making breathing difficult, doctors said. He died Monday.

 

“In the very advanced stages, even the modern techniques we have at our disposal are not enough to help these patients once they reach a critical threshold,” said Dr Jeffrey Gold, chancellor of the medical center.

 

Sierra Leone’s government said it was shocked to learn that Salia was dead and questioned whether “the strain of the 16-hour trip could have had a negative impact on his recovery.”

 

The virus has already killed more than 5,000 people in West Africa.

 

Salia, who chose to work in his homeland despite more lucrative opportunities elsewhere, was first tested for Ebola on 7 November, but the test was negative, and he was discharged from a treatment center in Sierre Leone.

 

It’s not unusual to see false negative tests for Ebola in the early stages because the amount of the virus in the bloodstream is still low, said Dr Phil Smith, the infectious-disease expert who leads the Nebraska Medical Center’s bio-containment unit.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Remember when we cared about this?

 

Were we ever so young as we were the last week of October, 2014?

[twa]

I'm still following it.....and the hundreds under monitoring here,as well as the patients brought in.

 

the national guard being sent was a interesting development, as is the change in duties.

 

the press seems a lot quieter overall though

[ABQCOWBOY]

Agreed TWA.  It hasn't gone away and in fact, it will be an ongoing thing. 

[twa]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/19/health-ebola-who-idUSL6N0T94Z220141119

 

UPDATE 2-Ebola spreading intensely in Sierra Leone as toll rises - WHO

 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/20/who-outlines-six-ebola-cases-mali/

 

WHO outlines six Ebola cases in Mali

Grand imam’s travel from Guinea led to five deaths

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/20/who-outlines-six-ebola-cases-mali/#ixzz3JdEIYFuk 
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Agreed TWA.  It hasn't gone away and in fact, it will be an ongoing thing. 

 

We should have had the army invade in Texas when we had a chance.