Adam Schefter: Dan Snyder chose Malcolm(b) Kelly over Jamaal Charles

[Cyclops]

Where are you even going with this dude?

 

Why even bring up AP? Because your trying to prove a point about Dan Snyder being friends with CP? Get over it. In the past. CP was 25 at the time in the prime of his career. You don't trade your best player you had rode to the playoffs the previous year.

 

I don't even know what you are blabbering about at this point.

[pjfootballer]

Laron Landry was a disasterous pick, with or without Sean Taylor.

Your stats on Portis are even more telling. Would have been the perfect time to unload him and gotten younger before he went for that tackle against the Bengals in Cincinnati.

A great GM would have seen the move I think.

Going chalk and failing is no excuse especially when they've rarely done the opposite. Alfred Morris excluded.

Skins are gonna have to give up something to get something at some point instead of just grabbing what they can get. Pull a Jimmy Johnson and give up a current strength for much greater future glory.

You could argue they did with RG3 and it changed the franchise.

We just disagree, let's leave it at that.

You are advocating the BPA approach. We were not, nor have we been in position to draft that way. We have Griffin and Cousins at QB. If a QB is the highest rated player on our board at #33, would you want us to take a QB? Doesn't make sense and neither did it back in that draft.

[RandyHolt]

I think its wise to consider BPA WRT position of need. NHL when players take 2 3 5 years to mature, sure.  

 

The highest rated player is a QB on the board with our 3rd. Great.  See if anyone wants to trade, and then target a position of need instead.  If the or priority positions of need are far down the list of overall best available, again entertain trade down ideas. Don't just blindly draft the QB when we already learned that lesson. 

 

And no, do not reach on a guy projected to be a free agent like we did with LeRib. 

 

[Bishop Hammer]

We could have had Jordy Nelson, Ray Rice, Jamaal Charles, Desean Jackson, any number of other players. I could be wrong but I thought it was a pretty talent laden draft at least in the mid rounds.

Honestly none of those players wouldn't have reached their full potential here. The team was such a mess and horrid at developing players they, more than likely, would've ended up being duds.

[Sea Bass]

I don't believe the contract would have allowed Snyder to push McNabb on Shanny.

 

I would bet on it.

 

I do believe Shanny being the narcissist that he is wasn't sold on any QB option and Danny wanted McNabb and Shanny was like, I can win with anyone Kyle.  Let's show Danny how it's done.

 

Not sure why there is any doubt that Shanny had final say in who he brought in, that's not to say he and Danny couldn't discuss and Danny could have a preference.

 

Had Danny "forced" his will, Shanny could have walked.  Danny would have owed 35 Mill.

 

Since most of your post is a statement of opinion, I will assume the rest is also your opinion, and I won't challenge it.

From everything that has been quoted about the contract, the word most used was "ironclad"

 

Mike Shanahan ran Redskins Park the last 4 years. That has been determined by quotes from pretty much every reputable NFL journalist and even Bruce Allen in the presser where they fired Mike.

 

Jay Gruden won't be in charge of Redskins Park like Mike Shanahan was. 

 

Bingo. 

 

Ironclad meant that if Snyder fires him, Shanahan is still owed $7 million.  Snyder can't get around paying Shanahan, as long as he doesn't walk.

 

https://twitter.com/...251644592934913

[Sea Bass]

Amazingly enough no one on ES seems to have access to a copy of that contract. Plenty of people in this thread though have given you good definitions of what full control means in this context - you can choose to believe them or not.

In a post earlier you talked though not about the contract - you accepted that Shanny had final say over Allen so you seem to know what final say means - and talked/asked about the relationship between Shanny and Snyder. Here us what you said below.

 

Your not going to be find that relationship described in a contract anymore than you will find the state of a marriage described in a marriage license. if Shanny's contract says full control mans no interfering that's not going to prove Snyder still did not interfere.

I personally don't be believe Snyder did interfere - Shanny had the helm and got what he wanted. Your free to draw your own conclusions.

 

Mike Shanahan was the primary power broker last year, with him and GM Bruce Allen reporting directly to owner Daniel Snyder, who is a hands on owner;

 

http://www.thephinsi...lly-runs-a-team

 

"Primary power broker" is basically the same as "full control." Do you argee?  It's possible to use terms like that to describe Shanahan, but not say that he is above Snyder.  The person in the quote did just that.

 

"Full control" does not imply anything about Shanahan and Snyder unless it mentions Snyder.  You are extrapolating a lot of things from 2 words - a lot of things that aren't necessarily there.

[MartinC]

Mike Shanahan was the primary power broker last year, with him and GM Bruce Allen reporting directly to owner Daniel Snyder, who is a hands on owner;

 

http://www.thephinsi...lly-runs-a-team

 

"Primary power broker" is basically the same as "full control." Do you argee?  It's possible to use terms like that to describe Shanahan, but not say that he is above Snyder.  The person in the quote did just that.

 

"Full control" does not imply anything about Shanahan and Snyder unless it mentions Snyder.  You are extrapolating a lot of things from 2 words - a lot of things that aren't necessarily there.

I'm using common sense. If Snyder was interfering with football decisions and forcing players or draft picks on Shanahan those stories would be all over the media in capital letters as explanation from Shanahans side of why he failed here. The lack of these stories alone screams very very loudly that Snyder let Shanahan get on with the football side of things.

No one is saying that Snyder was not the person in the organization above Shanahan - he owns the football club. He hires and fires Shanahan and Bruce Allen as well. But that's not what we are talking about in the context of full control here - that's about football decisions and operations.

What's your position?

[Sea Bass]

Sea Bass:

 

I want to make sure I understand your position fully before moving forward with this.

 

Are you saying that you believe that Mike and Bruce had equal positions in terms of title (Vice President) but the with regards to football decisions Bruce had ultimate authority.  Both Bruce and Mike still had to answer to the President Dan Snyder who could overrule them at anytime and force his will on Bruce and Mike?

 

The quote says that.

 

The only thing I am saying is don't make statements of fact, unless you can back it up with a source.

[Sea Bass]

I'm using common sense. If Snyder was interfering with football decisions and forcing players or draft picks on Shanahan those stories would be all over the media in capital letters as explanation from Shanahans side of why he failed here. The lack of these stories alone screams very very loudly that Snyder let Shanahan get on with the football side of things.

No one is saying that Snyder was not the person in the organization above Shanahan - he owns the football club. He hires and fires Shanahan and Bruce Allen as well. But that's not what we are talking about in the context of full control here - that's about football decisions and operations.

What's your position?

 

Most of this talk stems from people's reactions to the article about Snyder forcing McNabb on Shanahan.  You're basically responding to a story about Snyder meddling with the idea that there are a lack of stories about Snyder meddling.

 

The quote I gave you was talking specifically about football decisions and operations.  "Primary power broker", "full control", "ultimate authority", "final say", etc. - none of them imply that Shanahan doesn't report directly to Snyder on football decisions. That quote demonstrates that you can use strong words about Shanahan, and still concede that he reports to Snyder on football decision.

 

My position is that you should back up your statements of fact with sources.  That's all I've been doing is asking for sources to back up people's statements.  It's been like pulling teeth.

[Sea Bass]

sea bass, 

 

i'm not sure what your position exactly is or where youre trying to go with it, but i am sure that mike shanahan does not agree to coach the washington redskins without having complete control over the roster. 

 

mike knew dan wanted him to coach the team and used it to his advantage, to his credit. at that time, mike had a good reputation,( despite his lack of success when he was given more control in denver.)

 

someone like jim zorn, for example, does not have that leverage. he doesnt have a track record. he has zero leverage. but, mike did. 

 

i say this because i'm not sure you understand the clout that mike shanahan had just a few years ago, particularly in dans eyes, and what that meant as far as his role in the organization.

 

mike got everything he wanted. its that simple. 

 

That's your opinion.  I won't argue with it.

 

My position is quite simple.

 

If someone says "I think Snyder didn't meddle", that's an opinion. 

 

If someone says "Snyder didn't meddle because Shanahan's contract said he couldn't meddle", that's a statement of fact, and I will ask for a source.

 

If someone says "I think Snyder didn't meddle. I think Shanahan's contract said he couldn't meddle because I don't believe Shanahan wouldn't sign a contract without it.", that's an opinion.

 

I simply want a source for a statement of fact.

[MartinC]

My position is that you should back up your statements of fact with sources.  That's all I've been doing is asking for sources to back up people's statements. 

The story about Snyder 'meddling' over McNabb is not really a story - again if Snyder had forced McNabb on Snyder without Shanahan wanting him or being happy with the idea trust me we would be hearing ALL about it now. But nothing .....

I'm not making statements of fact, I'm giving an opinion and have said a couple of time your entitled to your opinion.

It's been like pulling teeth.

It certainly has.

[grego]

 

 

My position is that you should back up your statements of fact with sources.  That's all I've been doing is asking for sources to back up people's statements.  It's been like pulling teeth.

 

 

sea bass- with the perspective with which youre approaching this, the only thing that may satisfy you (and maybe not) is the contract itself. and nobody has access to that. 

 

others are extrapolating from things we know combined with common sense, and that gives us a reasonable answer. 

 

heres another quote, but i dont think it will help you. (one thing i note about mikes comments is the little bit of spin he puts on them, as if hes attempting to leave open the possibility that dan was meddling- let me know if you agree)

 

 Under the terms of Shanahan’s contract, he was not obligated to discuss the move with Snyder, he said.

“In theory, I don’t,” Shanahan said. “But would you ever make a decision like that with your future quarterback that you gave up two number one [draft choices] and a number two without having the courtesy to talk to the owner and say, ‘Hey, would you make this move? If not, this is your football team. I’m a head football coach. I would not make it unless I got your blessing’ because I don’t want to do that to him if he feels it’s not the right thing to do.”

Shanahan also said: “That’s what you do about a quarterback. He’s your franchise. That’s why you ask those questions. You don’t do it about the other positions. Dan could care less about the other positions: ‘Hey, that’s why you coach. That’s why I own.’ I understand that. That’s not a problem. But I do ask it about a quarterback because we’re gonna have a circus atmosphere any time you make a decision like that.”

Shanahan later clarified that remark in a conference call with Atlanta reporters, saying any owner would be concerned about a decision regarding the quarterback and Snyder leaves all football-related decisions solely to him about players at other positions.

[Rudechain]

The WP article I quoted cited sources from within the organization, so that goes beyond a personal journalist opinion don't you think ?. "interviews with 19 former employees, including those who worked on the Redskins coaching staff, in the front office"

Do you think all these "opinions" are all wrong ?

can you provide the link please?

[FrFan]

can you provide the link please?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/daniel-snyder-washington-redskins-owner-still-struggles-to-find-formula-for-success/2014/01/04/5d86bfa4-74a4-11e3-bc6b-712d770c3715_story.html

[Rudechain]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/daniel-snyder-washington-redskins-owner-still-struggles-to-find-formula-for-success/2014/01/04/5d86bfa4-74a4-11e3-bc6b-712d770c3715_story.html

From that same article

 

"Shanahan was given full control of the football operations when he was hired in January 2010, and Snyder agreed to take a step back. The organization formerly operated as a pyramid with a handful of executive vice presidents reporting directly to Snyder. Since Allen was hired, they all report to Allen, who solely reports to Snyder."

 

 

 

 

 

"Two of his more celebrated coaching hires were Shanahan and Schottenheimer. Both were given control of team personnel, something Snyder is said to have regretted in the case of Schottenheimer, who was fired after just one season."

 

 

 

First, the contributors to that article (Jason Reid, UnWise Mike and Sally Jenkins in particular) seemingly have an axe to grind with the Redskins as does their employer the Post.  

 

That being said, I see nothing in this article that states he interfered with Shanny on the football side of the house.

 

 

 

Now as the owner of the team, I am sure he is involved in the direction of the team, but I also don't believe Snyder would willingly throw away 7 million a year.

 

 

This article ( from Schefter) states he has  "ultimate authority" on football decision.

 

 

"After an afternoon of negotiations produced an agreement, Mike Shanahan signed a five-year contract to become executive vice president and head coach for the Washington Redskins.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4799532

 

 

 

I searched and can't find any articles stating Snyder meddled in "football decisions" during Shanny's tenure.

Under the terms of the new deal, Shanahan will team with Redskins executive vice president and general manager Bruce Allen, but Shanahan will have the ultimate authority on football decisions."

[chipwhich]

Sea Bass, no offense but what you are asking for is becoming pure silliness at this point.

 

Here are the simple facts.

 

Shanny signed a contract with Danny which to the extent "ironclad" can be was ironclad.  Why do I say to the extent?  Because the only ironclad position with the Redskins is Dan Snyder.  So Snyder could meddle from the second Shanny signed the contract.  At that point Shanny could decide Danny was in breach of contract and walk.

 

As contracts and legal go, there is always a challenge to what was signed as nothing in life or legal is guaranteed, so Shanny's guaranteed chance of getting his final year pay was to be fired.

 

Not sure what you want.  You wont get to see the contract.  EVERYONE agrees Shanny had the contract written as tight as possible to keep Shanny in charge of all decisions (everything as tight as possible even though on day 1 of signing the contract Snyder is still king and could have fired him a day after signing the contract).

[Sea Bass]

sea bass- with the perspective with which youre approaching this, the only thing that may satisfy you (and maybe not) is the contract itself. and nobody has access to that. 

 

others are extrapolating from things we know combined with common sense, and that gives us a reasonable answer. 

 

heres another quote, but i dont think it will help you. (one thing i note about mikes comments is the little bit of spin he puts on them, as if hes attempting to leave open the possibility that dan was meddling- let me know if you agree)

 

 Under the terms of Shanahan’s contract, he was not obligated to discuss the move with Snyder, he said

 

Thank you.  I was actually looking for that quote earlier.

 

It does actually help.  I'll explain why in my final paragraph.

 

Taking that quote in terms of the McNabb situation, I would say it implies that Shanahan could bench McNabb without discussing it with Snyder.  It doesn't really mention anything about how Snyder is involved in signing a player.  Also, it doesn't mention whether or not Snyder could force Shanahan to start RG3.  "We won't go there" is what Shanahan said about that.

 

I don't think anyone has accused Snyder of meddling in coaching decisions, i.e. benching McNabb, at least, not recently.  It's the personnel decisions (signing McNabb) that they accuse him of meddling. 

 

I don't think it would require the contract to satisfy my request.  Your article talks about details of Shanahan's contract.  I don't see why another article couldn't talk about the "full control" portion of the contract.  I think we need to consider the possibility that articles don't mention it because it doesn't exist.

[Sea Bass]

Sea Bass, no offense but what you are asking for is becoming pure silliness at this point.

 

Here are the simple facts.

 

Shanny signed a contract with Danny which to the extent "ironclad" can be was ironclad.  Why do I say to the extent?  Because the only ironclad position with the Redskins is Dan Snyder.  So Snyder could meddle from the second Shanny signed the contract.  At that point Shanny could decide Danny was in breach of contract and walk.

 

As contracts and legal go, there is always a challenge to what was signed as nothing in life or legal is guaranteed, so Shanny's guaranteed chance of getting his final year pay was to be fired.

 

Not sure what you want.  You wont get to see the contract.  EVERYONE agrees Shanny had the contract written as tight as possible to keep Shanny in charge of all decisions (everything as tight as possible even though on day 1 of signing the contract Snyder is still king and could have fired him a day after signing the contract).

 

That's true.  I do require evidence before I accept something as fact.  Conjecture is not evidence.  "Everyone" can be wrong.  History is full of examples of "everyone" being wrong, including about history.  I don't assume something simply because "everyone" says it.

 

You should try it sometime.  It's quite liberating and eye opening.  It reminds me of the movie Revolver with Jason Statham and Andre Benjamin (Andre 3000).

 

You know what I want.  I think basically you are admitting you can't provide it.  That's OK.  I respect your opinion.  I might actually even agree with your opinion.  I think we both agree that it is what it is - an opinion.  It can be based on facts, logic, reason and common sense, but it's still an opinion.

[FrFan]

From that same article

 

"Shanahan was given full control of the football operations when he was hired in January 2010, and Snyder agreed to take a step back. The organization formerly operated as a pyramid with a handful of executive vice presidents reporting directly to Snyder. Since Allen was hired, they all report to Allen, who solely reports to Snyder."

 

From that same article:

"Snyder pushed hard for the higher profile and more marketable McNabb. The owner cut short a family vacation in the Turks and Caicos Islands to meet his new quarterback."

"One constant theme of Snyder’s ownership from the beginning has been complaints from staff about the owner’s involvement with players and the relationships he cultivates with them. Even as he ceded a significant amount of authority to Shanahan these past four years, Snyder, like many NFL owners, will never be entirely absent from big decisions, others warn."

 

I'll leave the discussion here about him, we can argue on and on, time to move on.

[chipwhich]

You know what I want.  I think basically you are admitting you can't provide it.  That's OK.  I respect your opinion.  I might actually even agree with your opinion.  I think we both agree that it is what it is - an opinion.  It can be based on facts, logic, reason and common sense, but it's still an opinion.

 

Well EVERYTHING on this board is an opinion.  We don't see peoples contracts, we don't see what actually happened behind the scenes.  EVERYTHING whether from reporters, or insiders, or posters, or players, or coaches is biased.

 

Most people agree to accept certain facts without proof.  I mean I have no proof that I am my parents child but I assume it to be correct, I have reasons to believe it is correct, and I have no reason to demand a dna test.

 

I think Schefter, Shanny, and Snyder would all say Shanny had full control.  The fact that you refuse to accept it without absolute fact or seeing the contract is what borders on silliness.

[Rudechain]

From that same article:

"Snyder pushed hard for the higher profile and more marketable McNabb. The owner cut short a family vacation in the Turks and Caicos Islands to meet his new quarterback."

"One constant theme of Snyder’s ownership from the beginning has been complaints from staff about the owner’s involvement with players and the relationships he cultivates with them. Even as he ceded a significant amount of authority to Shanahan these past four years, Snyder, like many NFL owners, will never be entirely absent from big decisions, others warn."

 

I'll leave the discussion here about him, we can argue on and on, time to move on.

No argument, but it still states that Shanahan had full control over football decisions.   Snyder may have wanted a certain player and pushed for him, but final authority over "football related decisions" rested with Shanny.   It's been stated and restated, but Shanahan, Allen and from the media.

 

And if you invested as much money buying a football franchise, you would probably not be "entirely absent" from big decisions either.  Yet it does not mean that he made those decisions.   

 

And again, I see no evidence that SNyder was making those decisions and usurping Shanahans responsibilities as having final say on all "football related decisions".

 

 

When Snyder hired Marty, he stayed back. When he hired Gibbs, he stood back and when he hired Shanahan he stood back.  Nothing I have seen anywhere states anything otherwise with exceptions to opinion articles.

 

Again this is no argument, but the article you cited DOES NOT MENTION that Snyder made those moves and over-ruled Shanny.  It's pure conjecture.

[Leonard Washington]

Two comments:

 

1. I've never heard Jamaal Charles rap after a big game. Comb was a known commodity.

2. It's 2014!  Why share this news now?