AlldaySkins Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 As much of a fan I am of Orakpo, I don't think we should bring him back for the franchise tag or anything over $8 mil. I think he needs some coaching to help him work on his moves and we might've just brought in the right guy for that. He has said he wants to be a Redskin for life so we shall see if he means it. Go for the hometown discount Rak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 People claiming that Orakpo is replaceable confuse me greatly. They like to look at his sack stats against NFC east teams and simply discredit it, but Orakpo is by far our best linebacker at stopping the run and it's not even close. He rarely misses tackles, too. I'd give him a deal in the range of 5 years $45million but he'll probably get 6/$60 million. Agreed, and I see a 6 year deal at 60M.........which will only be used for 4 years, then restructered or waived. It might leave some dead money on the back end but we need him and this would be cap friendlier way of doing it. Also even though were past the cap penalty, we need 2 to 3 offseasons/drafts put us back on track. I hate to use the name Shannahan, but he was correct in saying it would take several offseasons to make up for lost ground........and lossing him would just create another spot to fill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf85 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Can we get a link for this article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooters Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Way to throw Kerrigan under the bus like that. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf85 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Way to throw Kerrigan under the bus like that. lol Well i just looked at both there stats and neither are impressive to me. Sorry when i see players getting 15 or more sacks a year. Yet orakpo has had around 10 a year when healthy and kerrigan averages about 8 a year. So yeah there nice players to have, but neither in my mind are play makers. So in other words i wouldnt break the bank for either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Well i just looked at both there stats and neither are impressive to me. Sorry when i see players getting 15 or more sacks a year. Yet orakpo has had around 10 a year when healthy and kerrigan averages about 8 a year. So yeah there nice players to have, but neither in my mind are play makers. So in other words i wouldnt break the bank for either of them. Problem is how he's used. Haslett should be blitzing him 85-90% of the time. That's when he's at his best. If Haslett won't budge on his scheme then we should let Orakpo go. Basically keeping Haslett dooms Orakpo to max out at 10 sacks a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 If Haslett returns there is little point in spending too much on defense. Jimmy Letdown could fall on his face coaching Seattle's roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumboSauce Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I don't think the value of a pass rusher, even if he hasn't touched the elite category yet can be replaced. This team has a lot of issues/holes. Rak shouldn't be another one to worry about filling. Bring him back. I agree with the others on how he's utilized/bad coaching. Rak being in coverage so much is a disservice. I don't pretend to understand his responsibility in Haslett's 3-4 but it takes his strengths away imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJL Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Well i just looked at both there stats and neither are impressive to me. Sorry when i see players getting 15 or more sacks a year. Yet orakpo has had around 10 a year when healthy and kerrigan averages about 8 a year. So yeah there nice players to have, but neither in my mind are play makers. So in other words i wouldnt break the bank for either of them. I hate this line of thought who are you going to replace them with without breaking the bank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 The franchise tag for a linebacker in 2014 will be about $10M. Since it is a one-year deal by definition, all of it comes off the 2014 cap. It seems to me, we either want him for the long term, in which case it makes sense to sign him to at least a 3 year deal, preferably longer, or its time to let go. The management should have enough information on him by now to make a decision. With a new coach and an OL that needs a major overhaul, it makes sense to start forming a team for 2015. If Orakpo is franchised in 2014 and has a good year, he'll have a lot more leverage than he does now. Franchising him again in 2015 will cost $12M, and letting him go will create a big hole in the defense. Better to deal with it one way or the other right now. Absolutely dead on. It will actually be cheaper to sign him now if we want to keep him. If we can get him at a reasonable price I say keep him. If he insists on top money I would let him go. Either way, a franchise tag is a lose/lose for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 teams have negotiated away from the two first picks and they don't have to pay him 10 mil next year to sign him. Then by all means hand him a contract for $10M and just assume he won't sign it. Because nothing happens with the franchise tag until the Skins offer him a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I have not been the biggest fan of Rak and am still not not sure he can be elite. But he is at least adequate right now and I am not sure we could replace his production as easy as some think we can. Don't be surprised to see a huge step forward for Kerrigan this year as long as he does not re-injure himself. He really should have sat out 6 or more games last season but he wanted to play. Say what you want, but it slowed him down. In the end, we have bigger issues, like Safety, Dline, CB, ILB, Oline, TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Absolutely dead on. It will actually be cheaper to sign him now if we want to keep him. If we can get him at a reasonable price I say keep him. If he insists on top money I would let him go. Either way, a franchise tag is a lose/lose for us. He's an injury risk who may or may not have great production in the future. A franchise tag gives you another year to see what you have in him. I don't see how anyone can think a 1 year 10 mil guaranteed contract on a risky player is worse than a 5 year 40 mil with 15+ guaranteed. You may save 2-3 mil next year but what if he ends up being a waste of a contract with another torn pectoral or two? You've just wasted millions more in future cap space. Plus if a team wants to outspend us then keeping him for one more year could help our defense next year. It's like marrying a girl before you've rounded the bases. If Orakpo hadn't torn two pecs in 5 years I'd agree that just resigning him is straight up smarter than franchising, but that tag will help give you a better idea of his worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I hate this line of thought who are you going to replace them with without breaking the bank? You'd replace him with Jackson and Jenkins and see what they could do. We haven't done anything with him and it will be hard to do anything with him in the future if we are paying him $10mil+ a year. Maybe if we had a different DC it would make more sense. But I know how Haslett loves Orakpo so I fully expect him to get $11mil a season to stuff the run and inexplicably go out in coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJL Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 You'd replace him with Jackson and Jenkins and see what they could do. We haven't done anything with him and it will be hard to do anything with him in the future if we are paying him $10mil+ a year. Maybe if we had a different DC it would make more sense. But I know how Haslett loves Orakpo so I fully expect him to get $11mil a season to stuff the run and inexplicably go out in coverage. Jackson is also a free agent. And will also probably attract interest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEBSKINS Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 If we replace him and his successor is a scrub or is injury prone, I don't want to hear you guys ****ing and saying "I wish we would have kept Rak". Keep 98 at a fair price. Its on him if he wants to be unreasonable in negotiations. You could do ALOT worse than Rak, but only marginally better (at a way higher price). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98ORAKPO98 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 May I recommend continuing this conversation in this thread? http://es.redskins.com/topic/365854-brian-orakpo-current-most-over-hyped-redskin-or-as-good-as-advertised/ If not then.... Why Re-Signing Brian Orakpo Should Be Top Priority for the Redskins Offseason http://www.hogshaven.com/2013/12/6/5183514/why-re-signing-brian-orakpo-should-be-top-priority-for-the-redskins Total: 1,475 pass rush attempts, 39 sacks for a sack rate of 2.6% Now that sounds awful but consider the following: DeMarcus Ware (2009-2012)- 1,995 pass rush attempts, 60 sacks, for a sack rate of 3.1% Terrell Suggs (2009-2011, 2013)- 1,883 pass rush attempts, 39 sacks, for a sack rate of 2.1% Tamba Hali (2009-2012) - 1,856 pass rush attempts, 48 sacks, for a sack rate of 2.6% Jared Allen (2009-2012) - 2,381 pass rush attempts, 60 sacks, for a sack rate of 2.5% Clay Matthews Jr (2009-2012) - 1,675 pass rush attempts, 43 sacks, for a sack rate of 2.6% Cameron Wake (2010-2013) - 1,799 pass rush attempts, 49 sacks, for a sack rate of 2.7% Chris Long (2010-2013) - 2,038 pass rush attempts, 41 sacks, for a sack rate of 2.0% Elvis Dumervil (2009, 2011-2013) - 1,707 pass rush attempts, 52 sacks, for a sack rate of 3.0% Mario Williams (2009-2010, 2012-2013) - 2,015 pass rush attempts, 45 sacks, for a sack rate of 2.2% Ryan Kerrigan (2011-2013) - 1,380 pass rush attempts, 25 sacks, for a sack rate of 1.8% That is a sampling of the best pass rushers in the NFL over the last 5 seasons (taking only 4 seasons to account for any missed years, which almost all of the rushers had one of), and Brian Orakpo is right at the top of that group on a per pass rush basis (which is what really matters). These are the premier pass rushers in the NFL, most of whom have had at least one 15 sack or more season, yet Orakpo is right in the midst of them. Though it's not broken down, Orakpo probably more than any other rusher on this list has faced off with team's left tackles for a higher percentage of rushes. Many of these other top rushers will move around more and see at least 20% of their rushes come against right tackles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander_N_Chief Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I love 'Rak but he just can't stay healthy. Yes I know last year he made it until the end but he did get injured again IIRC. If we can get him at a decent price, we should bring him back. Though I don't believe his opinion, and my opinion, on what I could find to be a fair price would ever match up. I do not believe the drop off from 'Rak to RJax would be that great and the money could be spent in other ways to help with our pass rush such as new DEs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuhBuhBiggie Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Man how I'd love to see Rak and Kerrigan in a 4-3 defense! Those guys were born to have their hands in the dirt, this LB thing was cute, but switch em back to DE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJL Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I love 'Rak but he just can't stay healthy. Yes I know last year he made it until the end but he did get injured again IIRC. If we can get him at a decent price, we should bring him back. Though I don't believe his opinion, and my opinion, on what I could find to be a fair price would ever match up. I do not believe the drop off from 'Rak to RJax would be that great and the money could be spent in other ways to help with our pass rush such as new DEs. Rak's first pec injury came at the end of the 2011 season and then he re-injured the same pec early the next year, that suggests to me it wasn't completely rehabbed Then at the end of this year he had a completely unrelated injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 And 98's post isn't even considering that Orakpo is pretty solid against the run compared to Hali or Dumervil. I'm more concerned about all his injuries, you don't pay a guy who will only play half his contract. And I'm concerned about Haslett, who is wasting his talent. I understand you want your defense to be unpredictable, but I don't think Wade Phillips in Dallas really lost out on surprise by blitzing Ware constantly. He moved him around and stunted him. You knew he was coming, you just didn't 100% know from where (oftentimes a rb or te would shade over to chip him on the outside only to have him stunt inside and completely negate the double team). And then Orakpo contain rushes more often, which I suppose is fine with weak ILB and safety play (if Orakpo left a wide open hole for an rb our linebackers and safeties were either too slow or lacked the anticipation to fill the gap in time). Orakpo is not the perfect fit for Haslett's system. A player like Von Miller or Van Noy in this year's draft are guys who are more all-around players. But Haslett's system sucks. We need more speed at ILB and S so Orakpo doesn't have to contain rush as much, which is a personnel problem and not a scheme problem per se, but we also need to stop putting him in coverage, which is a scheme problem; and we need to be more creative in our gap assignments to allow for more stunting and moving around. I still get an uneasy feeling about his injury history and I want to see him excel in a more aggressive defense before I pay him as if he already does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 He's an injury risk who may or may not have great production in the future. A franchise tag gives you another year to see what you have in him. I don't see how anyone can think a 1 year 10 mil guaranteed contract on a risky player is worse than a 5 year 40 mil with 15+ guaranteed. You may save 2-3 mil next year but what if he ends up being a waste of a contract with another torn pectoral or two? You've just wasted millions more in future cap space. Plus if a team wants to outspend us then keeping him for one more year could help our defense next year. It's like marrying a girl before you've rounded the bases. If Orakpo hadn't torn two pecs in 5 years I'd agree that just resigning him is straight up smarter than franchising, but that tag will help give you a better idea of his worth. I understand what you are saying, but franchising him also gives him a better idea of his worth meaning we could be a real bidding war the next year if he plays well. Also, the franchise means the entire approximately $10M comes off this cap and it's gone. If he gets injured you have lost the entire $10M. Finally, I think you could sign him to 4 or 5 yr contract and keep your exposure to the same $10M but spreadover a few years if he stays, and spreading it over at least 2 yrs if he gets injured. If he only last a year, our exposure is the same but if he works out we have him under contract. $10Min cap is an awful lot of money to have tied up this year in one person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I understand what you are saying, but franchising him also gives him a better idea of his worth meaning we could be a real bidding war the next year if he plays well. Also, the franchise means the entire approximately $10M comes off this cap and it's gone. If he gets injured you have lost the entire $10M. Finally, I think you could sign him to 4 or 5 yr contract and keep your exposure to the same $10M but spreadover a few years if he stays, and spreading it over at least 2 yrs if he gets injured. If he only last a year, our exposure is the same but if he works out we have him under contract. $10Min cap is an awful lot of money to have tied up this year in one person. I imagine his contract is at LEAST Kruger's size, which was 5 years, 40 mil with 20 mil guaranteed. It's that guaranteed part that's rough. It will likely be larger. If he's going to get top 3 OLB money, which is a distinct possibility as contracts get larger every year, we're better off just franchising him. I know people say don't break the bank, but Orakpo COULD be worth that kind of money, or he could be a huge waste of that money. After this year I'm still not even 50% sure where his real value actually is. I know I'd want another year to get an idea. If he's as good as PFF thinks, you don't get rid of a top 4 OLB just because you're trying to pay him like an average OLB. We don't have a ton of dead cap, I'm ok with spending money next year in order to avoid a bad decision that results in a lot of dead cap in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 After this year I'm still not even 50% sure where his real value actually is. I know I'd want another year to get an idea. If he's as good as PFF thinks, you don't get rid of a top 4 OLB just because you're trying to pay him like an average OLB. We don't have a ton of dead cap, I'm ok with spending money next year in order to avoid a bad decision that results in a lot of dead cap in the future. OK, you almost had me until you brought up PFF ratings... I have serious doubts about their evaluations. You may be right that we would have to pay the kind of money you are talking about, but I do know that if he has a big year the cost will be that much higher next year. Others know about his injuries. I think we could keep the guaranteed money down. If we could keep it to $10M to $12M I don't care what the contract size is. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matugi Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Jackson is also a free agent. And will also probably attract interest Jackson is a mediocre situational player that struggles to get pressure on a regular basis and struggles against the run. He's good in coverage but the dropoff in pass rush and run defense between Rak and him is huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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