Dukes and Skins Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 is there any chance at all that Ha Ha will drop to the top of the 2nd round? Can Ryan Shazier play inside linebacker in a 3-4 defense? I don't think Ha Ha makes it to the top of the 2nd round, and with Shazier I truly do think he makes it both in a 4-3 or a 3-4 D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATrain46 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Jordan Matthews is my new pick at 34. Hard working tough very good route running strong hands WR.. Help RG3 plug the defense with plug players and focus on making the offense more solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thekyle1591 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Alshon Jeffery 6'3" 216 33" arms 10.25" hands 4.48 40 1.64 10 split 6.71 3 cone 36.5" vert 10'2" broad 18 reps AJ Green 6'4" 211 34.5" arms 9.25" hands 4.50 40 1.55 10 split 6.91 3 cone 34.5" vert 10'6" broad 18 reps Jordy Nelson 6'3" 217 ? arms ? hands 4.51 40 1.50 10 split 7.03 3 cone 31" vert 10'3" broad ? reps Larry Fitzgerald 6'3" 225 ? arms ? hands 4.48 40 ? 10 split ? 3 cone ? vert ? broad ? reps Jordan Matthews 6'3" 212 33.25" arms 10.5" hands 4.46 40 ? 10 split 6.95 3 cone 35.5" vert 10' broad 21 reps Doesn't compare? Explain yourself. If most the people you are listening to think he's maxed out, start listening to other people. Not to answer for LL but for me Matthews isn't the athlete any of the players listed above are. He has suspect hands and doesn't present alot of upside. His 4.46 is also much much faster than he plays on film. He just isn't that good compared to other players in his class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJValleySkinz Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Not to answer for LL but for me Matthews isn't the athlete any of the players listed above are. He has suspect hands and doesn't present alot of upside. His 4.46 is also much much faster than he plays on film. He just isn't that good compared to other players in his class. Other than being the most fundamentally sound receiver in the draft and producing record numbers in the SEC at Vanderbilt he really doesn't have much to offer. Look at how he runs routes, look at how he can stop on a dime and burst of his breaks, look at how he changes direction while in high gears, look at how once he hits his stem there is no wasted motion or absolutely no give away, his feet are incredibly coordinated and he has cat like balance which allows him to pluck the ball out of the air and turn upfield before the DBs have time to adjust and if you don't think he's fast look him up on youtube and watch him run away from SEC defenders. What do you have to support your statement that he just isn't that good compared to other players in his class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKonaP Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Not to answer for LL but for me Matthews isn't the athlete any of the players listed above are. He has suspect hands and doesn't present alot of upside. His 4.46 is also much much faster than he plays on film. He just isn't that good compared to other players in his class. Don't understand that he isn't the athlete the others are. How are you backing that statement up? Suspect hands? The tape that I've watched thus far show him catching a lot of balls while being interfered with and very few drops, even fewer that were not tipped by a defender before. He was THE only threat Vandy had in '13 and defenses still couldn't stop him. He did not have a QB that was worth mentioning and still produced against a conference that is accepted as one of, if not the toughest in the NCAA. None of the WRs listed are considered burners yet produce plays downfield like I see with Matthews. So far, I'm just reading what other TV analysts have said with the negatives. It's like there was a community meeting and the script was decided on this kid without doing the research. If I'm looking for a maxed-out talent, It'd be Benjamin. He's a 23 year college player with a Heisman QB whose play is erratic where he should be dominating on a regular basis. I guess if the NFL scouts were really good at what they do, Jeffery and Nelson wouldn't have gone in round 2, like Matthews is projected at the moment. Green and Fitz were universally accepted at the top of their drafts and Jeffery/Nelson were improperly scouted and fell. All have produced in the pros and I am confident that Matthews will too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Other than being the most fundamentally sound receiver in the draft and producing record numbers in the SEC at Vanderbilt he really doesn't have much to offer. Look at how he runs routes, look at how he can stop on a dime and burst of his breaks, look at how he changes direction while in high gears, look at how once he hits his stem there is no wasted motion or absolutely no give away, his feet are incredibly coordinated and he has cat like balance which allows him to pluck the ball out of the air and turn upfield before the DBs have time to adjust and if you don't think he's fast look him up on youtube and watch him run away from SEC defenders. What do you have to support your statement that he just isn't that good compared to other players in his class? It is hard to understand the mixed reviews on Matthews that are so prevalent. He has the production numbers over an entire career in an elite conference, despite not having consistent QB play or being surrounded by talent. In light of that long term, proven production, the critique had to be that he lacked next level elite athleticism. Yet, then he went to the combine and put on one of the best overall performances by a WR in one of the most talented combine WR units ever. Now, it's a fallback to his film not showing him playing fast or at a high enough clip. It's a bit of a mystery to me, but I tend not to trust evaluations that run counter to both the statistical production AND the athletic measurables of a player, especially one who has a great mind and character (which Matthews seems to have). I can't help but wonder if it's partly a matter that he doesn't blow you away by being the top in any category. He's not the 4.3 speedster, the 6'5" 225 frame, the elite deep threat etc... However, what he does seem to be is the complete package, who is polished, maybe ready to start day one, and least likely to bust. He may not be the best fit for our needs, but I don't buy the downplaying he's getting from many. My guess is he goes first 30-40 picks, and produces good numbers as a #2 receiver almost immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJValleySkinz Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 It is hard to understand the mixed reviews on Matthews that are so prevalent. He has the production numbers over an entire career in an elite conference, despite not having consistent QB play or being surrounded by talent. In light of that long term, proven production, the critique had to be that he lacked next level elite athleticism. Yet, then he went to the combine and put on one of the best overall performances by a WR in one of the most talented combine WR units ever. Now, it's a fallback to his film not showing him playing fast or at a high enough clip. It's a bit of a mystery to me, but I tend not to trust evaluations that run counter to both the statistical production AND the athletic measurables of a player, especially one who has a great mind and character (which Matthews seems to have). I can't help but wonder if it's partly a matter that he doesn't blow you away by being the top in any category. He's not the 4.3 speedster, the 6'5" 225 frame, the elite deep threat etc... However, what he does seem to be is the complete package, who is polished, maybe ready to start day one, and least likely to bust. He may not be the best fit for our needs, but I don't buy the downplaying he's getting from many. My guess is he goes first 30-40 picks, and produces good numbers as a #2 receiver almost immediately. The NFL has been littered over the years with extremely productive receivers that do all the little things Matthews does so well and some of them weren't the athletes he is. The WR position a great position to look because there are so many little things that go into running routes, and it's hard to appreciate what could make Matthews a great player without seeing those little things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemoveSnyder Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 He has the production numbers over an entire career Lots and lots and lots of Bubble Screen. Nearly the most out of anyone in the class. So the production, the numbers, are a talking point but unless you have specifics, they are a bit of mirage. - Jordan Matthews’ map of completions is very similar to that of Sammy Watkins. They both caught around 50% of their receptions behind the line of scrimmage with limited experience downfield. Whereas the average WR caught 35% of their passes deeper than 10 yards, Matthews only caught approximately 24% There are redeeming qualities of Matthews, don't get me wrong. His background checks, work ethic and medical will probably determine where he goes compared to a handful of other guys, moreso than the tape, to be honest with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemoveSnyder Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Phillip Gaines vs Mississippi State 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukes and Skins Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hey Monk, Phillip Gaines is really good at football eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thekyle1591 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Other than being the most fundamentally sound receiver in the draft and producing record numbers in the SEC at Vanderbilt he really doesn't have much to offer. Look at how he runs routes, look at how he can stop on a dime and burst of his breaks, look at how he changes direction while in high gears, look at how once he hits his stem there is no wasted motion or absolutely no give away, his feet are incredibly coordinated and he has cat like balance which allows him to pluck the ball out of the air and turn upfield before the DBs have time to adjust and if you don't think he's fast look him up on youtube and watch him run away from SEC defenders. What do you have to support your statement that he just isn't that good compared to other players in his class? Well, I've watched most of his film if not all of that. So there is that. I also know his numbers are inflated due to the fact Vandy force fed him the ball his entire career. He doesn't seem to create much separation and has a lot of drops from what I've seen. He looks like an above average college player who produced in a terrible offense for years. There are a variety of players in this class, you have speed guys (Cooks, Bryant) Versitile do it all guys (Landry) complete WR (Beckham) huge guys (Evans and Benjamin) explosive guys (Watkins) and great route runners (Abberderis). That really leaves 2 guys who are considered top prospects. Robinson and Matthews. I prefer Robinson because he is more explosive and catches the ball more consistently. He also showed some pretty good deep speed on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thekyle1591 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Don't understand that he isn't the athlete the others are. How are you backing that statement up? Suspect hands? The tape that I've watched thus far show him catching a lot of balls while being interfered with and very few drops, even fewer that were not tipped by a defender before. He was THE only threat Vandy had in '13 and defenses still couldn't stop him. He did not have a QB that was worth mentioning and still produced against a conference that is accepted as one of, if not the toughest in the NCAA. None of the WRs listed are considered burners yet produce plays downfield like I see with Matthews. So far, I'm just reading what other TV analysts have said with the negatives. It's like there was a community meeting and the script was decided on this kid without doing the research. If I'm looking for a maxed-out talent, It'd be Benjamin. He's a 23 year college player with a Heisman QB whose play is erratic where he should be dominating on a regular basis. I guess if the NFL scouts were really good at what they do, Jeffery and Nelson wouldn't have gone in round 2, like Matthews is projected at the moment. Green and Fitz were universally accepted at the top of their drafts and Jeffery/Nelson were improperly scouted and fell. All have produced in the pros and I am confident that Matthews will too. I watched the tape that's how lol. Don't jump to conclusions that I haven't don't research because I don't agree with you. I watched the tape and a 4.46 40 isn't gonna change my mind. He doesn't wow me in any aspect and college production means nothing to me. Really, if you judge a player based on production you don't know anything about scouting. For the record, I don't like Benjamin either. In fact Matthews and Benjamin are 2 of my least favorite WRs in this draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJValleySkinz Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Well, I've watched most of his film if not all of that. So there is that. I also know his numbers are inflated due to the fact Vandy force fed him the ball his entire career. He doesn't seem to create much separation and has a lot of drops from what I've seen. He looks like an above average college player who produced in a terrible offense for years. There are a variety of players in this class, you have speed guys (Cooks, Bryant) Versitile do it all guys (Landry) complete WR (Beckham) huge guys (Evans and Benjamin) explosive guys (Watkins) and great route runners (Abberderis). That really leaves 2 guys who are considered top prospects. Robinson and Matthews. I prefer Robinson because he is more explosive and catches the ball more consistently. He also showed some pretty good deep speed on occasion. I haven't read one scouting report that talks about his drops and if he isn't fast, how is he piling up all those yards catching bubble screens in the SEC? He's also the best route runner in the draft too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 I don't get how bubble screens are held against him. He played for an overmatched Vandy team in the toughest conference in football, was his subpar supporting cast supposed to sustain their blocks for the extra few seconds and his qb supposed to deliver an accurate pass against superior competition? If I'm a coach, and my team is outmatched across the board, my entire gameplan would revolve around quickly getting the ball to the hands of my best player, which is exactly what Vandy did. It isn't because Mathews can only catch screens, it's because his team could only consistently produce from screens and short passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 I don't get how bubble screens are held against him. He played for an overmatched Vandy team in the toughest conference in football, was his subpar supporting cast supposed to sustain their blocks for the extra few seconds and his qb supposed to deliver an accurate pass against superior competition? If I'm a coach, and my team is outmatched across the board, my entire gameplan would revolve around quickly getting the ball to the hands of my best player, which is exactly what Vandy did. It isn't because Mathews can only catch screens, it's because his team could only consistently produce from screens and short passes. Exactly. And given that approximately 25% of his college receptions went for 10-20+ yards, we know that his numbers aren't purely attributable to bubble screens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thekyle1591 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 I haven't read one scouting report that talks about his drops and if he isn't fast, how is he piling up all those yards catching bubble screens in the SEC? He's also the best route runner in the draft too. Instead of reading scouting reports you should watch the film yourself and make your own conclusions. He just doesn't play as fast as his 40 time. Plain and simple. I also think Abberderis, Cooks and the LSU WRs are all better route runners. Exactly. And given that approximately 25% of his college receptions went for 10-20+ yards, we know that his numbers aren't purely attributable to bubble screens. Which of course is in contrast to the 40% the other players had. Bubble screens are looked down upon because that isn't an NFL route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJValleySkinz Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Instead of reading scouting reports you should watch the film yourself and make your own conclusions. He just doesn't play as fast as his 40 time. Plain and simple. I also think Abberderis, Cooks and the LSU WRs are all better route runners. Which of course is in contrast to the 40% the other players had. Bubble screens are looked down upon because that isn't an NFL route. I see a lot more in that film than you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thekyle1591 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 I see a lot more in that film than you do. Well, if he really played like a 4.46 guy at 6'3 and was the best route runner in his class while consistently catching the ball and producing in the SEC despite a bad team while having little to no off the field issues he probably wouldn't be a early to mid 2nd rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJValleySkinz Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Well, if he really played like a 4.46 guy at 6'3 and was the best route runner in his class while consistently catching the ball and producing in the SEC despite a bad team while having little to no off the field issues he probably wouldn't be a early to mid 2nd rounder. Did they move the draft up? Nobody expected the 4.46 because on film it looks like he has more sudden acceleration than long speed, but that subtle acceleration is excellent and he hits it incredibly quickly. Ask his cousin if 40 times are the end all be all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thekyle1591 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Did they move the draft up? Nobody expected the 4.46 because on film it looks like he has more sudden acceleration than long speed, but that subtle acceleration is excellent and he hits it incredibly quickly. Ask his cousin if 40 times are the end all be all. But you were JUST saying how he is fast and his 40 time confirms it. So which is it? I never said 40 time matters, I said his game speed doesn't match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJValleySkinz Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 But you were JUST saying how he is fast and his 40 time confirms it. So which is it? I never said 40 time matters, I said his game speed doesn't match up. He is fast. He had one of the best 10 second splits at the combine. He has an incredibly fast first 15 yards which counts as speed. He doesn't have that sprinter's ability to sustain it but football isn't sprinting. He has everything he needs to get separation in the NFL and will come into the league being able to run a wide variety of routes so it's not the end of the world if a straight go route might not be one of them. All your talk about him and I haven't heard a word about some of his actual weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATrain46 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Route running will make up for in game speed. Precision cuts and having your opponent on his heels not knowing where your going is the same as having Desean Jackson like speed imo.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thekyle1591 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 He is fast. He had one of the best 10 second splits at the combine. He has an incredibly fast first 15 yards which counts as speed. He doesn't have that sprinter's ability to sustain it but football isn't sprinting. He has everything he needs to get separation in the NFL and will come into the league being able to run a wide variety of routes so it's not the end of the world if a straight go route might not be one of them. All your talk about him and I haven't heard a word about some of his actual weaknesses. That is wonderful. Really wonderful. Good for him. Doesn't make me like him anymore. As for a variety of routes, almost 50 percent of his routes were screen passes. Everything I have mentioned above are what I few as his weaknesses so just because he ran fast at the combine and your read about his route running in a scouting report doesn't mean that is what is on film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukes and Skins Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 So if Orakpo walks, I wouldn't mind replacing him with Marcus Smith from Louisville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thekyle1591 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 If we can't pick up Su'a Filo, we might wanna grab Trai Turner at some point. Sort of similar players and would fit a zone or power scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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