2014 Comprehensive Nfl Draft Database

[Thekyle1591]

you could literally say this about any SAF prospect in a particular game and it would be true. It's a generic critique without context. 'Looked a little slow and out of place' but you site him missing 1 tackle early and being a step late on A crossing pattern. 'A little slow getting over' on a few screens- now c'mon you gotta see how this is generic/nit picky/ subjective.

How are you objectively judging this compared to other prospects?

'Took some suspect angles' again I need a little context.

But then at the end you say he "wasn't noticeably bad".

My point is looking at a prospect and cherry pick some plays does lead to an accurate assessment nor ranking.

An assessment is made by weighing the negative plays AND the positive plays vs the total number of plays. For me to truely get a read and have a good discussion on a prospect we have to give more info.

I think if we have to take more then a casual view of a game to have a more accurate assessment.

I think the things Buc is being panned for here are the very strengths of his game. Speed/ aggression to the ball. By my count ( and I've counted) fewest missed tackles of any SAF prospect; most consistent form; most pop with his tackles. He wasn't used as single post SAF often but made plays in coverage. Made a great read and react int playing 2-deep that is a great example of his ability you want from a SAF playing on the back half in one of the games I charted this season.(will site later on the phone)

I remember having a similar SS vs FS argument about Reid, McDonald and Vacarro last year. I think people confuse didn't do in college vs can't do. I had Reid and McDonald as FS despite the view many held that they were SS. And I had Vacacrro as a SS. I say that to say the draftnik consensus isn't alway right and they way a prospect was used in college doesn't limit them in the NFL. Their skillset will determine how they can be used. And Buc shows the skillset to play either Free or Strong; which was loudly reinforced by his combine.

I mean, it's not really a "generic" critique, the angles were bad on almost every play and he was directly involved with 2 plays (missed tackle and he got destroyed by a block on another TD) I could make a +\- breakdown on the game, but I'll have to get that back to you around 4. As for the "noticably bad" comment, it was more that he didn't make a lot of really bad plays, he just was consistently OK. He looked like an average player that was overmatched against a superior team. I'm not saying Buc is a bad player, his overall tape is much better than this game, but it does give me some doubts as to if he can play both spots. Right now I have him my 4th ranked SAF.

[darrelgreenie]

Agreed.. Seems like Gruden brings up the "Oline was pushed back a bit on 3rd downs" in almost every interview when he's asked about the offense. Everyone should remember that first and foremost Gruden  was a QB and knows what it's like to be in pocket firsthand.Expect him to do what most former QB's turned Head Coaches do and that's build a strong line to protect the QB while surrounding him with weapons to get the job done. Don't expect all of it to happen in one offseason, but fans should understand this is a rebuilding project not a retooling. 

Amen. And amen. I got so tired of harping about this during the Shanahan regime that I just had to stop.

But I'll give Mike Shanahan credit for opening up my eyes to the idea that well you kinda sorta could make due with an so-so OL if your scheme and QB execute at a high level.

But life sure is easier for everyone coaches, QBs, receivers if the OL has superiority at the point of attack.

Win on the OL.

If your Xs are better then their Os especially upfront it goes a long way to winning.

[darrelgreenie]

I mean, it's not really a "generic" critique, the angles were bad on almost every play and he was directly involved with 2 plays (missed tackle and he got destroyed by a block on another TD) I could make a +\- breakdown on the game, but I'll have to get that back to you around 4. As for the "noticably bad" comment, it was more that he didn't make a lot of really bad plays, he just was consistently OK. He looked like an average player that was overmatched against a superior team. I'm not saying Buc is a bad player, his overall tape is much better than this game, but it does give me some doubts as to if he can play both spots. Right now I have him my 4th ranked SAF.

Bad angles on almost every play? Lol, okay don't bother about the game charting. He didn't make alot of really bad plays but took a bad angle on almost every play? But he was consistently OK. But looked overmatched? 

By that logic I could look at one of Pryor's bad games and question whether he's draftable lol.

Which SAFs do you have ahead of him?

[Emsworth]

So the FO are looking at Centers too? Thought we'd be happy to roll with Monty/Lich/LeRib, but a little competition couldn't hurt.

 

I liked Marcus Martin best for value back when he was rated as a 5th rounder, but it seems he's climbing draft boards fast. Having gone through the options I'm not sure there's a good value pick to be had until the last round, if Johnatthon Harrison is still there in the 7th that might be a nice way to round off the draft. Tape looks better than that grading, maybe he's being overlooked because of Florida's overall disappointing offense. Thought he was a good player on a poor line, certainly liked what he did at center better than what Halapio did at Guard, and Halapio is reckoned as around a 5th rounder.

 

Of course if we risked it and hoped Harrison dropped out of the draft all together he could be picked up as an UDFA...  (open market competition always a danger for that strat though)

[Koolblue13]

If this draft is so deep, why shouldn't we trade next years first?

[Lavarleap56]

If this draft is so deep, why shouldn't we trade next years first?

 

Probably an option. In the last 45 years, the Redskins have not had a first round pick in 24 drafts.George Allen loved to trade draft picks for veteran players.Bobby Beathard and Charley Casserly frequently traded out of the first round to acquire veteran players and more picks later in the draft.

 

How many great 1st round picks have the Redskins had in the last 45 years ? Green,Monk,Taylor was on his way, Champ maybe?, Trent, and we hope Robert ends up being one.. I know so people will say Lavar, Rak, or Kerrigan but they're probably more good than great. 

 

That being said I can't compare this front office to the front offices that were instrumental in building Super Bowl wining programs. But there are a lot of ways to skin a cat but it depends on how savy your front office is at making moves and picking talent. Time will tell but the Skins have A LOT of people involved in the process now such as Brown,Campbell, Allen, Williams, AJ Smith, Scouts, and all the Coaches have a significant role in the process which is a change from the Shanny  era. Many people credit the Bengals recent drafting success to giving their coaches a more prominent role in picking the talent they work with, could be good or bad but time will tell if it works in DC. 

[markmills67]

Not sure what some others are talking about but this article is spot on! I've watched all the games over and without question the o-line was the weakest link on our team. Not to mention as a GM your always evaluating ways to draft the players you really want.

So If a team like the Bengals want to trade back for a 1st next year and one of the top prospects we really want is still on the board .. we should will pull the trigger! The draft is about getting players you want not players you think could workout.

I agree with you about how bad the OL was, but I am so frustrated with Shanahan not replacing Chester and Litch with 2 of Lerib, Hurt and Gettis, I would go for Mack in FA and draft RT at 34.

DP - Hurt - Mack - Leri - Williams

DP draft pick.

[Thekyle1591]

Bad angles on almost every play? Lol, okay don't bother about the game charting. He didn't make alot of really bad plays but took a bad angle on almost every play? But he was consistently OK. But looked overmatched?

By that logic I could look at one of Pryor's bad games and question whether he's draftable lol.

Which SAFs do you have ahead of him?

I clearly said that Bucs bad game was just that. A bad game. And that he is a very solid prospect. I have 1. Pryor 2. Haha 3. Ward and 4. Buc. Maybe "every play" was a little bit of a hyperbole but there were a number of plays were he had bad angles. I said he was just ok, meaning he was nothing special that game and looked like he was out of his comfort zone against them. Also "bad plays" would be a missed tackle or a long play given up in coverage, at least that is what I'm talking about.

[Lavarleap56]

I have a hard time seeing the team going after a Safety early in the draft unless something crazy happens and one drops out of the first round. The only guys on the roster right now are Rambo,Thomas, and T.Robinson.That is a lot of youth at the position that needs a veteran player or two in the mix for leadership imo.  They will grab a guy or two in Free Agency, don't rule out Reed or Merriweather returning or pray for Byrd to hit the open market.

[Koolblue13]

I have a hard time seeing the team going after a Safety early in the draft unless something crazy happens and one drops out of the first round. The only guys on the roster right now are Rambo,Thomas, and T.Robinson.That is a lot of youth at the position that needs a veteran player or two in the mix for leadership imo. They will grab a guy or two in Free Agency, don't rule out Reed or Merriweather returning or pray for Byrd to hit the open market.

Reed and Byrd would be my dream starters. Reed has done nothing but improve, sure tackler and has been very good in the box and would have a very affordable contract. I'd like him to start until Thomas beats him out.

As for the draft, if this year people really think the 2nd and 3rd are so full of potential long term starters, it would almost be foolish to skimp on it for a future possibility. I don't expect us to be worse than a. 500 team, so I would think the talent we could get out of this draft, in the form of multiple second day picks, could vastly outweigh the potential of one mid first round player in a much lesser draft.

I'm not one who likes to lose draft picks, but it seems like the right thing to do this year.

Besides, all the teams who constantly pick high, don't exactly scream perenial winner.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

What if we went OC/RG or RG/RT or OC/RT in free agency and drafted that 3rd new starting OL, which would fully depend on free agency.

 

I'm of the thought in this exact moment that we have 2, possibly 3 starters. Trent Williams, Josh LeReibus, Will Montgomery. That is "best case" scenario with what we have now. I guess you could say true best case would be Gettis at RG, but I don't see that.

 

From what I've read various places it seems as though Montgomery and Chester are the two weak links on the OL. But others have said Lichtensteiger at LG is as good as gone too ... and that Polumbus won't be our RT either. That really leaves 4 holes ... or 3 if LeReibus is the LG answer (which I am assuming he is). 

 

1. Anthony Collins, RT - knows Grudens system, played well at LT, would probably cost some dough but not as much as other higher end prospects.

2. Geoff Schwartz, RG - he's a mauler. He also shouldn't cost a ton, but would be a huge upgrade at RG. A bit of a journeyman, so I would hope his 2013 is what we get there.

3. Alex Mack, OC - Don't know if he's "worth the cost" because he will likely get Top OC money ($7-8m/yr avg). But he's a stud. 

 

If you told me we were going to pour a ton of money into the OL I guess I would vote for Mack and Collins ... then go OG in the 3rd round and hope for Cyril Richardson or Gabe Jackson. 

 

T. Williams - Cyril Richardson - Alex Mack - Josh LeReibus - Anthony Collins --- would be juicy.

 

Being the draft thread, my wish list for OL in the draft would be:

2nd: OG Su'a-Filo, UCL

3rd: OG Cyril Richardson, OG Gabe Jackson

4th: RT Seantrel Henerson, OC Bryan Stork

 

I'd rather use that 2nd on a WR ... and I would hope we only address the OL position once, meaning we got a couple studs in FA. If we went into the draft with our top needs being 1. WR, 2. ILB, 3. OG/OT/OC, 4. CB I think I'd be pretty thrilled.

 

Now if we can find a way to get another 2nd or another 3rd. Hmmm.

[HtownRocks111]

 

T. Williams - Cyril Richardson - Alex Mack - Josh LeReibus - Anthony Collins --- would be juicy.

 

Being the draft thread, my wish list for OL in the draft would be:

2nd: OG Su'a-Filo, UCL

3rd: OG Cyril Richardson, OG Gabe Jackson

4th: RT Seantrel Henerson, OC Bryan Stork

 

 

 

 

I like the list of hopefuls but I'd switch Cyril and Su'a-Filo around.  Watching interviews with Cyril, I love how mature he sounds.  He said he wanted to GIVE BACK to Baylor... what better way to give back to Baylor by protecting their most-prized product in RGIII?  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Agreed.. Seems like Gruden brings up the "Oline was pushed back a bit on 3rd downs" in almost every interview when he's asked about the offense. Everyone should remember that first and foremost Gruden  was a QB and knows what it's like to be in pocket firsthand.Expect him to do what most former QB's turned Head Coaches do and that's build a strong line to protect the QB while surrounding him with weapons to get the job done. Don't expect all of it to happen in one offseason, but fans should understand this is a rebuilding project not a retooling. 

 

You can say "Oline was pushed back a bit" for every down, not just 3rd downs.  I felt like our guys were giving up too much ground and Morris had to make a move earlier than he was supposed to.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Also, looks like we've met with Kelvin Benjamin according to his instagram account 

 

I heard we also had a nice and long talk with Jordan Matthews.  Seems like we're going true to how the Bengals drafted receivers between 2011-2013.  All 6'2 or taller.

[Laxpunk2006]

You can say "Oline was pushed back a bit" for every down, not just 3rd downs.  I felt like our guys were giving up too much ground and Morris had to make a move earlier than he was supposed to.

You could certainly say that but on first and second down we were able to limit the exposure of their weakness in pass pro with the run game and play action.  On third and 5+ when anything outside of a surprise draw is basically out of the equation pass rushers were really able to tee off and embarrass some of our guys.  That at least is my interpretation of why he would focus on third downs.

[Dark Acre]

DT Aaron Donald, 6-1/285 ran an official 4.68 40.  Can he play ILB???

[HtownRocks111]

DT Aaron Donald, 6-1/285 ran an official 4.68 40.  Can he play ILB???

 

 

I was thinking we could put him in at FB on max protect packages and goaline packages....  let Almo or Helu follow this dude into the endzone.

[darrelgreenie]

I have a hard time seeing the team going after a Safety early in the draft unless something crazy happens and one drops out of the first round. The only guys on the roster right now are Rambo,Thomas, and T.Robinson.That is a lot of youth at the position that needs a veteran player or two in the mix for leadership imo.  They will grab a guy or two in Free Agency, don't rule out Reed or Merriweather returning or pray for Byrd to hit the open market.

I can certainly see them drafting a SAF. The first reason being BPA. If a SAF is the best player available you take them.

 

Also there isn't a solid starter on the team at either SAF spot and don't have a lot invested in our young prospects. Essentially we have depth/special teams guys (except Rambo isn't really good on specials but i digress) and now we need a starter. Our SAF play was one of the weak spots on the defense and drafting a solid starting caliber SAF our Eric Reid or Jonathan Cyprien or TJ McDonald or even our Earl Wolff would go a long way to improving the secondary and defense as a whole.

 

I could also see them going with an upgrade that is a stop gap via FA and giving our young guys a chance to become starters.

 

Both are logical.

 

But if a SAF is the bpa? Then why wouldn't they pull the trigger.

[Thekyle1591]

I can certainly see them drafting a SAF. The first reason being BPA. If a SAF is the best player available you take them.

Also there isn't a solid starter on the team at either SAF spot and don't have a lot invested in our young prospects. Essentially we have depth/special teams guys (except Rambo isn't really good on specials but i digress) and now we need a starter. Our SAF play was one of the weak spots on the defense and drafting a solid starting caliber SAF our Eric Reid or Jonathan Cyprien or TJ McDonald or even our Earl Wolff would go a long way to improving the secondary and defense as a whole.

I could also see them going with an upgrade that is a stop gap via FA and giving our young guys a chance to become starters.

Both are logical.

But if a SAF is the bpa? Then why wouldn't they pull the trigger.

I agree with what you said 100%, but all the safeties you listed were flat out horrible except Reid.

[Thekyle1591]

Deone Bucannon vs Oregon breakdown:

 

Good (impacted the way positively): 10

Bad (impacted the play negatively): 13

No impact on play: 13

 

Pros: Showed good awareness in coverage. Showed willingness and ability to deliver huge hits. Had a nice FF/Recovery

Cons: Was caught out of position frequently, struggled to get off blockers, took poor angles,  slow diagnosing plays (one where he was completely fooled on a zone read and went to opposite direction), had 3 really bad plays were he was directly involved with big plays and was beaten a few times in man coverage. 

 

Report: Had a few good plays and massive hits but found himself out of position and slow reacting to the high octane Oregon offense. Had alot more no impact plays than a 2nd round prospect should and looked like a 6-7th rounder the majority of the game. 

[darrelgreenie]

Kyle-

I'm game for charting this game IF you are willing to discuss the plays you're talking about without hyperbole.

We can add context by explaining exactly which plays we're talking when a statement like: 'was caught out of position is made' or 'slow diadgnosing plays'. Because those types of assessments seem very subjective.

So let me know and I'm game to break it down to find the context behind the rhetoric.

 

Deone Bucannon vs Oregon breakdown:

 

Report: Had alot more no impact plays than a 2nd round prospect should and looked like a 6-7th rounder the majority of the game. 

Couldn't this same (or worse) generic pan be applied to any prospecct? I'll give you an example from say Calvin Pryor in the Kentucky game? e.g.

In the Kentucky game Pryor had alot more negative plays than a 2nd round prospect should have and looked more like a UDFA the majority of the game.

[Thekyle1591]

Kyle-

I'm game for charting this game IF you are willing to discuss the plays you're talking about without hyperbole.

We can add context by explaining exactly which plays we're talking when a statement like: 'was caught out of position is made' or 'slow diadgnosing plays'. Because those types of assessments seem very subjective.

So let me know and I'm game to break it down to find the context behind the rhetoric.

Couldn't this same (or worse) generic pan be applied to any prospecct? I'll give you an example from say Calvin Pryor in the Kentucky game? e.g.

In the Kentucky game Pryor had alot more negative plays than a 2nd round prospect should have and looked more like a UDFA the majority of the game.

Well, the first play that really comes to mind is the one where he comes down to support the run and gets absolutely destroyed by the slot WR and the rb walks in for the score. I counted off for numerous plays that he was blocked down the field and wasn't able to find the ball carrier. I also counted off for 2 plays in coverage where he was beat deep ( the guy caught it out of bounds in the end zone) and another where he was beaten on a skinny post for a good bunch of yardage (would've been more had the ball been a good one). There were a few other ones that I put as negative , one of which was where he was faked out badly by a read option as well as a few where he was playing back and didn't react fast enough to come up and make a tackle for a minimal gain, or at least redirect the ball carrier. Another I didn't count off for but I remembered is one where he was caught lookin in the backfield and someone ran right past him and he goes off the screen with his back to the qb. Another was on the goaline and he went way too far upfield and was simply pushed out of the way and the back went right into the space vacated for a Td. His positive plays were pretty much whenever he played his zone well or came up and delivered a hit, as well as a hustle play where he ran down the guy and forced a fumble. Remember, this is just one game and most late first and 2nd round prospects have games where they don't show up or play well. Even NFL stars do.

[darrelgreenie]

So when we chart/discuss a game in the manner we are attempting the plays are broken down by a number and a time stamp.

That way when you refer to play I can refer to that same play.

 

If you still want to...

[Thekyle1591]

So when we chart/discuss a game in the manner we are attempting the plays are broken down by a number and a time stamp.

That way when you refer to play I can refer to that same play.

If you still want to...

Yeah, I wasn't at home when I typed that. I was just rattling a few off the top of my head, so if you choose to watch it again you'll know what I'm talking about. But I will in the future take note of when exactly these things occur. Id like to see your breakdown.

[darrelgreenie]

Yeah, I wasn't at home when I typed that. I was just rattling a few off the top of my head, so if you choose to watch it again you'll know what I'm talking about. But I will in the future take note of when exactly these things occur. Id like to see your breakdown.

If you're gonna do one, I guess I will to. If I get a chance I'll do it tonight.

 .....Remember, this is just one game and most late first and 2nd round prospects have games where they don't show up or play well. Even NFL stars do.

Scratches head. It seemed like you were making conclusions about Buc based on this one game.*shrugs*