HTTR24-7; The Difference Between The Wildcat and the Read-Option (Or, Why Perry Fewell is Wrong)

[champhalloffamer]

hi guys. did any of you guys listen to the rich eisen podcast last week. trent dilfer was one of the guests and rich eisen talks about the zone read and the pistol and how rod woodson told him that defensive coaches are gonna study it this offseason and will shut it down.

 

Trent Dilfer, who played with woodson on the ravens says he couldnt disagree more with woodson and goes into detail on how these offenses are so difficult to prepare and play against and he thinks it his here to stay. the podcast is about 2 hours long and i think the dilfer interview starts around the halfway. well worth a listen.

 

hey guys a denver bronco fan here. been rooting for u guys since shanny became coach. shanny is to me what joe gibbs is for you redskin fans. cant wait for preseason.

 

cheers

[bedlamVR]

KDawg - I just wanted to pick up on a couple of things . 

 

"Making the QB accountable for the fake" - again semantics - but again even if you are not saying the words - it sounds like you are advocating dubiously legal fustration football -  if the ball is out of the QBs hands and he is not a target unless he runs  down field and starts throwing blocks for his RB or WR ... that is one of the basics of football - it is like laying a hit on a punter who is ambling back to the sideline during a return . 

 

Also you say - because the QB looks at the read player - the DE or OLB - he has declared himself a runner ? Payton Manning used to look check down and make adjustments on all the defensive players - and never runs . But looking over the defence a runner rather than a passer ..and the league looks at the two differently ... but I am not sure again how you would have one set of rules for say RGIII and Manning - it just doesn't make sense . 

 

The key is not to attack the read option QB but to frustrate him - The read option needs the defence to be attacking because the QB is not buying time to rip the secondary apart, and he is not buying time to establish huge blocking lanes ... the read option looks to take advantage of a moment of uncertainty in the defence and attack at its weakest point.

 

But remember The QB has RUN! in his head if things aren't there - so if receivers players come free they have to come free relativity quickly because if they don't the QB will never see them because he is off on his feet .. and having an extra D player at the LOS waiting to react to the pass or the run is going to stop those huge gains . And puts the QB in danger of the 'big' hit ..

 

I think my biggest thing though is I just never think you are going to stop the 'read option' because as long as you have a QB who can run and pass he is always going to find a way to use both his legs and his arm to beat you . And I can imagine the OC are licking their lips thinking the DCs of the teams playing them are plotting and planning ways to stop the RO based on last years tape because there is no way the likes of KS and others are sitting in their offices with their feet on the desk thinking job done .. things are going to change and evolve but you can put the RO looks abd play different things out of them .. 

 

The D is ust going to have to get better at reading the plays in front of them 

[KDawg]

I'm not reading anything to passed the first paragraph. I'm not implying ANYTHING dubious and I explained all of that in my response above.

It's annoying that you keep going to that, and until you read and comprehend what I said above, I'm not continuing any discussion with you.

[Darth Tater]

One thing I am confused about is the unblocked DE or defensive player ... I know the read option only works when the D is in specific looks and my understanding - and I could be very wrong here - is the read is based upon what the unblocked player does ...

So KDawg - If the DE comes free as a rusher and is soley going for the QB then he has to take an inside lane (not inside a takle but just off the OT shoulder) to avoid the outswinging running back as a blocker - Thus committing to the pass - Unless the DE essentially is going to jump the snap the RB is 9.9 times out of 10 going to get to the QB at the mesh point than the rusher is going to get to the QB once he realizes this is going to be a read option play .. so if the QB see the free rusher coming and the RB has a step to the outside of him then the ball is going to the RB and going for a 7-8 yard gain - and I think most OC will take that ALL day - indeed it is kind of what happened against the Cowboys - they ignored Morris and he ran for a country mile and if the OC can control the clock pounding out the D in an effective running game early there are few OC who would not be happy with that - especially because it opens up the play action so much more .

This is when there is a wham or an arc coming I assume based on your description. If that happens, I advocate the DE blowing up the blocker. If the blocker takes an aiming point of the end's inside shoulder, the DE wants to try to attack the outer V of the blocker and keep his outside arm free. If the blocker tries to take an outside "banana" block on the DE, the DE wants to try to keep inside leverage the best he can and allow his teammates to come over the top. (This is obviously in my plan, so when I say things that sound like absolutes, it's strictly within this plan).

You can't assume the QB is going to get a 7-8 yard gain due to a free rusher on the back side of the play. For the record, when I say back side, I mean the QB read side. "Play side" is what I consider to be the running back's attack angle.

>When the DE gets to the QB and the ball is gone - all he need do is throw his hands up - and if the DE does hit the QB when it is clear he no longer has the ball - thats 15 yards for free - thanks alot ..

Not necessarily. If the End crashes hard and there is no threat to block him (no wham, no arc, etc) then he could have a free shot on the QB because he got down hill now. The goal would be to get there as soon as possible. If he's slow in his read, then yes, he could get flagged... But hitting the QB that late would be downright stupid and unsportsmanlike, so I would hope they didn't continue on at that point. Personally, I think the hands up stuff is non sense. QBs should be held accountable for the fake, but, I digress. (Obviously, if it's egregious with intent to injure, that's a different story. But on a basic play, if he haphazardly throws his hands in the air right before contact and draws a flag, that's horse crap )

And okay you might say well if the hit connects and the hit rattles or removes the QB then those 15 yards are payment worth making.. But then I ask the question .. what is the difference between a read option QB handing the ball off to his running back on an outside stretch play 5 yards behind the LOS - and a reknown pocket passer (Tom Brady for example) handing off the ball on a stretch play 5 yards behind the LOS ... what I am saying is if the league turns a blind eye to the just hit the QB on the read option type plays then it turns a blind eye to late hits ... and it is never going to do this ..... plus if you get caught on tape saying these kinds of things - can you say bounty gate II ?

The difference is simple. The read makes the QB a threat. If he eyeballs the backside end, he's declaring himself as a possible runner. Brady handing the ball off on a simple stretch play is quite a bit different. He's not reading anyone.

And I'm not sure what "things" you're referring to being said. No one said they were trying to hurt anyone.

Plus hitting the QB when he is no longer a thrower or a runner - hit at all costs - sounds outside the sketchly lines of what is legal in the game of football . If your defensive play to counter the read option is really to go on the outside of the rules - then to hell with it - line up 13 against it or just give the DE a 9mm and tell him to shoot the QB on the read option - that will stop it ... or just throw down your clipboard and pick up the ball and go home - its not really a viable option - just hit the QB ..

Okay, I have no idea where you're getting this from. No one, most specifically myself, advocates late hits or "hits no matter what". I'm not sure where ANYONE got that from. Mingia.

I would NEVER advocate to set out to injure a player. EVER. In a MILLION years.

He needs to be hit in the field of play during the legal course of the play. Not seconds late. Not real late. Legal hits.

Please show me where I said that once in the thread. It's annoying that people keep saying that when it was never once mentioned.

I think what you have to remember is to make this work the QB is looking to read the free man and chose what to do at the mesh based on that - so to counter it either do nothing ... and react to the play at the LOS or do something unexpected running different stunts delays etc to move that read man post snap

I said all of that in my posts. You sure you read them all?

- What these QBs are looking to do is make a massive game changing play - if you frustrate and confuse him by taking away the obvious - the read man - then there is more chance they will force the ball and start making stupid mistakes because they are into a point where they are confused and improvising more and thats how the play becomes inneffective - and that when the OC has to look else where ..

lets face it - Football is a violent sport - every play the QB has a chance of being hit and hurt regardless of the play - the OC cannot call the game scarred and at the NFL level they wont - or they wont be NFL level OC very long .

This isn't entirely true either. They have a job to do. No owner wants to see their QB take repeated hits. There are some organizations that would pull the plug. Some that wouldn't.

I can't disagree with Saban. I don't know my strategy would work anyways. But, screwing your feet in at the LOS seems like a recipe the get completely run passed by an athletic QB.

This really is quite the conundrum.

Screwing your feet into the ground does work to neutralize the read option (you are not going to stop the RO). Read option teams are looking for the huge chunk. If you can stop them from getting the huge chunk, they WILL get impatient and try to force it which almost always leads to a mistake or throws off the schedule. Either that or I've seen it neutralized with a freakishly good NT and Safety or LB.

I'm not sure it does against athletic QBs. Screwing your feet into the ground only makes you stationary, and with someone like RG3 running the ball that leaves you very liable to getting run by. We saw Griffin do it several times.

 

If I got an elite QB and you only have average defenders, I will crush you pretty much no matter what you do defensively and you won't be able to a damn thing about it.  I'm assuming if you don't have any elite guys on your defense, I don't have an elite guy on my offense since that's really the ONLY way your going to beat me with scheme.  If you do have some elite guys (especially if they are inside) then your plan may work if executed.  If I do have an elite guy and you don't, your only hope is that you can contain my offense and hope you frustrate me into a mistake.  If its average versus average, you will likely frustrate me into a mistake.

[KDawg]

Agreed, Darth. 100%. Which is why I said earlier that sometimes it's about the Jimmies and the Joes

[darrelgreenie]

Kdawg-

Its always about the jimmies and joes. When actual player matchups are known it naturally changes the math for a given play or gameplan. And for me football is all about numbers.

But when talking concepts and non-game plan specific Xs and Os, like we are, we should assume all things are equal. That's how I approach it

[KDawg]

Kdawg-

Its always about the jimmies and joes. When actual player matchups are known it naturally changes the math for a given play or gameplan. And for me football is all about numbers.

But when talking concepts and non-game plan specific Xs and Os, like we are, we should assume all things are equal. That's how I approach it

That's also how I was approaching it in our conversation.

 

But I agree with Darth as well.

 

As I said earlier, I think you and I are closer on this than we originally thought.

[Tom [Giants fan]]

I didn't take time to read this whole thread so if this was brought up, I just brought it up again.

 

The BIG difference between the wildcat and the read option is that Ronnie Brown couldn't execute the read option because he can't throw the ball like RGIII can.  That right there gives the read option a whole different dimenstion. 

 

I hope Fewell read this.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

hi guys. did any of you guys listen to the rich eisen podcast last week. trent dilfer was one of the guests and rich eisen talks about the zone read and the pistol and how rod woodson told him that defensive coaches are gonna study it this offseason and will shut it down.

 

Trent Dilfer, who played with woodson on the ravens says he couldnt disagree more with woodson and goes into detail on how these offenses are so difficult to prepare and play against and he thinks it his here to stay. the podcast is about 2 hours long and i think the dilfer interview starts around the halfway. well worth a listen.

 

hey guys a denver bronco fan here. been rooting for u guys since shanny became coach. shanny is to me what joe gibbs is for you redskin fans. cant wait for preseason.

 

cheers

 

Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't listened to that podcast but I will check it out. I am big Dilfer fan, I think he is one of, if not the best analysts on ESPN. 

 

Good luck to Denver this year. It will be fun to see another Skins/Broncos matchup. 

[Darth Tater]

Kdawg-

Its always about the jimmies and joes. When actual player matchups are known it naturally changes the math for a given play or gameplan. And for me football is all about numbers.

But when talking concepts and non-game plan specific Xs and Os, like we are, we should assume all things are equal. That's how I approach it

Then the best thing to do is to frustrate it by using your NT to shut down the primary dive path, the DE to do either pretty much what Kdwag is describing (force the option to the dive) or control the primary QB path.  If the QB hands off, you keep forcing the RB wider and if he keeps it, the DE is going to force the QB into the LB.  Yes, you'll be giving up a small chunk even if you execute (and big ones if you don't but that's not a pure Xs and Os thing) but you willl almost certainly get the offense to make an execution mistake or frustate the offense into making a play call mistake.   The second Giants game is a perfect example, we got loads of yards but it the Giant's offense does its job, they win.  It when you give the offense the Jimmies, yourself the Joes, that the Xs and Os discussion changes.

[champhalloffamer]

champhalloffamer, on 07 Jul 2013 - 21:36, said:

hi
guys. did any of you guys listen to the rich eisen podcast last week.
trent dilfer was one of the guests and rich eisen talks about the zone
read and the pistol and how rod woodson told him that defensive coaches
are gonna study it this offseason and will shut it down.

 

Trent Dilfer, who played with woodson on the ravens says he couldnt
disagree more with woodson and goes into detail on how these offenses
are so difficult to prepare and play against and he thinks it his here
to stay. the podcast is about 2 hours long and i think the dilfer
interview starts around the halfway. well worth a listen.

 

hey guys a denver bronco fan here. been rooting for u guys since
shanny became coach. shanny is to me what joe gibbs is for you redskin
fans. cant wait for preseason.

 

cheers

 

Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't listened to that podcast but I will
check it out. I am big Dilfer fan, I think he is one of, if not the
best analysts on ESPN. 

 

Good luck to Denver this year. It will be fun to see another Skins/Broncos matchup.

 

yes i am a big dilfer fan myself. looking forward to the skins broncos game oct 27th. gonna try and fly out to that game myself. who knows maybe a superbowl preview. saying that im still receiving therapy over the last broncos skins superbowl lol!!!!!!

[darrelgreenie]

hi guys. did any of you guys listen to the rich eisen podcast last week. trent dilfer was one of the guests and rich eisen talks about the zone read and the pistol and how rod woodson told him that defensive coaches are gonna study it this offseason and will shut it down.

 

Trent Dilfer, who played with woodson on the ravens says he couldnt disagree more with woodson and goes into detail on how these offenses are so difficult to prepare and play against and he thinks it his here to stay. the podcast is about 2 hours long and i think the dilfer interview starts around the halfway. well worth a listen.

 

hey guys a denver bronco fan here. been rooting for u guys since shanny became coach. shanny is to me what joe gibbs is for you redskin fans. cant wait for preseason.

 

cheers

Welcome to the Burgundy and Gold nation, I grew up watching and loving Mike's Denver Broncos teams.

Listened to the podcast, Trent does a great job explaining why the read-option works and why its gonna be hard to 'stop'.

[Gamebreaker]

Rabbit trail, but am I the only one getting tired of hearing how the Steelers "stopped" us and the read option? The only thing that stopped us against the Steelers was the dropped passes.

 

I didn't visit here during the season last year, but I did go online before the Thanksgiving game against the Cowboys. I just had to see what Cowboys fans were saying.

 

One thing I saw repeated more than a few times was "We just need to do to RG3 what the Steelers did." Some 'Boys fan put together a video of all of RG3's passes from the Steelers game...I ended up laughing at the responses lol. Almost all of them were saying "Well, that's depressing...he was actually playing pretty well but the receivers were dropping everything in sight." They expected to see RG3 struggling against a "legitimate", aggressive defense, but saw just the opposite.

Lol! I was in that discussion and remember it well. They were talking trash pretty loudly until that other cowboys poster put that video up. Showed to me two things that I'd been telling them all through the thread: 1) they didn't know anything about the pistol formation or the read option, 2) many of them had never seen RG3 play. Kinda funny how the debate died quickly after that.