darrelgreenie Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 How is it psuedo-logic? He has been tried at WR and hasn't performed. He has been tried at RB and hasn't performed. Sure he and the rest of the offense there for years were underutilized, but if he can't ball with Cutler throwing the rock and Brandon Marshall commanding two and a young Alshon Jeffrey playing strong what do you expect out of him here? Justify him as a returner/package player and I'll bite. Why does he deserve a spot over Chase Minnifield, Roy Helu, Lance Lewis, Roderick Muckelroy, Daryl Tapp, Bryan Kehl, Ron Brace, Phillip Merling or any other player who would contribute and likely has a future with this team beyond the next couple of years (save for maybe Kehl and Tapp)? EDIT: And that's not even getting into the five right tackles this fan base is ready to sign off on... lol Did you even read my post? It sure doesn't seem like it. Your not responding to anything specific in my post. You're just having an argument with yourself on general points I'm not making. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 How is it psuedo-logic? He has been tried at WR and hasn't performed. He has been tried at RB and hasn't performed. Sure he and the rest of the offense there for years were underutilized, but if he can't ball with Cutler throwing the rock and Brandon Marshall commanding two and a young Alshon Jeffrey playing strong what do you expect out of him here? Justify him as a returner/package player and I'll bite. Why does he deserve a spot over Chase Minnifield, Roy Helu, Lance Lewis, Roderick Muckelroy, Daryl Tapp, Bryan Kehl, Ron Brace, Phillip Merling or any other player who would contribute and likely has a future with this team beyond the next couple of years (save for maybe Kehl and Tapp)? EDIT: And that's not even getting into the five right tackles this fan base is ready to sign off on... lol Did you even read my post? It sure doesn't seem like it. Your not responding to anything specific in my post. You're just having an argument with yourself on general points I'm not making. Cheers Your post said that our arguments (not just mine, but others) hold no merit. I'm saying they absolutely do. Your post said that he could be used as a package player... I'm again mentioning that he hasn't played well on offense for the Bears. I'll give you their coordinator situation hasn't been the best, but the new coaching staff doesn't think he rates if they let him go. I'm AGAIN telling you that he only plays teams consistently... and he would take up a roster spot of a guy who could be here for five to ten years... Read into what you want. Or just read it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 How is it psuedo-logic? He has been tried at WR and hasn't performed. He has been tried at RB and hasn't performed. Sure he and the rest of the offense there for years were underutilized, but if he can't ball with Cutler throwing the rock and Brandon Marshall commanding two and a young Alshon Jeffrey playing strong what do you expect out of him here? Justify him as a returner/package player and I'll bite. Why does he deserve a spot over Chase Minnifield, Roy Helu, Lance Lewis, Roderick Muckelroy, Daryl Tapp, Bryan Kehl, Ron Brace, Phillip Merling or any other player who would contribute and likely has a future with this team beyond the next couple of years (save for maybe Kehl and Tapp)? EDIT: And that's not even getting into the five right tackles this fan base is ready to sign off on... lol Did you even read my post? It sure doesn't seem like it. Your not responding to anything specific in my post. You're just having an argument with yourself on general points I'm not making. Cheers Your post said that our arguments (not just mine, but others) hold no merit. I'm saying they absolutely do. Use the quote feature. I said something very specific about a specific argument you and others were making. I didn't make a general statement that your points as a whole lacked merit. I'm not going to argue over something I didn't say when you can simply use the quote feature and clear up your confusion. Your post said that he could be used as a package player... I'm again mentioning that he hasn't played well on offense for the Bears. I'll give you their coordinator situation hasn't been the best, but the new coaching staff doesn't think he rates if they let him go. I'm AGAIN telling you that he only plays teams consistently... and he would take up a roster spot of a guy who could be here for five to ten years... Read into what you want. Or just read it again My post said that his special teams value alone was enough for me. But then again only people that actually value special teams would understand that. My post said that he could be a specialty player because of his physical skillset not because of statistical production. Statistical production is obviously effected by how a player is used e.g. (welker in miami vs welker in new england) And if Banks/Morgan can be productive in this offense out of the backfield the surely Hester can. Hester>runner/space player then Banks/Morgan Kyle>more creative offensive coordinator then Mike Tice, Mike Martz, Ron Turner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 DG, I covered everything you mentioned except for Desmond Bishop. The only difference in our arguments is I am using facts and you are using "what if's". Come on man, you are better than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 How is it psuedo-logic? He has been tried at WR and hasn't performed. He has been tried at RB and hasn't performed. Sure he and the rest of the offense there for years were underutilized, but if he can't ball with Cutler throwing the rock and Brandon Marshall commanding two and a young Alshon Jeffrey playing strong what do you expect out of him here? Justify him as a returner/package player and I'll bite. Why does he deserve a spot over Chase Minnifield, Roy Helu, Lance Lewis, Roderick Muckelroy, Daryl Tapp, Bryan Kehl, Ron Brace, Phillip Merling or any other player who would contribute and likely has a future with this team beyond the next couple of years (save for maybe Kehl and Tapp)? EDIT: And that's not even getting into the five right tackles this fan base is ready to sign off on... lol Did you even read my post? It sure doesn't seem like it. Your not responding to anything specific in my post. You're just having an argument with yourself on general points I'm not making. Cheers Your post said that our arguments (not just mine, but others) hold no merit. I'm saying they absolutely do. Use the quote feature. I said something very specific about a specific argument you and others were making. I didn't make a general statement that your points as a whole lacked merit. I'm not going to argue over something I didn't say when you can simply use the quote feature and clear up your confusion. >Your post said that he could be used as a package player... I'm again mentioning that he hasn't played well on offense for the Bears. I'll give you their coordinator situation hasn't been the best, but the new coaching staff doesn't think he rates if they let him go. I'm AGAIN telling you that he only plays teams consistently... and he would take up a roster spot of a guy who could be here for five to ten years... Read into what you want. Or just read it again And if Banks/Morgan can be productive in this offense out of the backfield the surely Hester can. I think Hester would be a great pick up as a return specialist - but he will probably command too big a deal to make that in anyway realistic. However I have to pick you up on the point you make above about Banks and Morgan being productive in our offense out of the backfield. Banks was the exact opposite of productive last year in that role and Morgan only marginally more so. With Banks it was a talent issue and with Morgan its not a role I think he suits. Thats not to say of course that a better player with the open field running ability and speed of Hester could not be productive in that role but we did not see production with the guys used last year. I think we may see someone like Thompson or even Helu used in that role a bit this year. I just dont think we have the cap room to think signing a guy like Hester is realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 We drafted Chris Thompson to be the Jet Sweep/Speed/Screen guy in this offense. Morgan is a YAC guy which is why he was targeted to come in, but Thompson has the chance to be a baller and Helu played almost exclusively out of the Pistol and did a lot of Zone read at Nebraska and they are already on the roster and 25 and 22 years old respectively. Hester will be 31 in November. You're looking at what he can do on teams and what you THINK he can do on offense in a vacuum. I'm saying that yes, he can help on teams and he MAY be able to help on offense. But we have guys here already that are pinpointed for certain spots and we are already going to be cutting at least four guys that'll get picked up by other teams. I think last year it was five, but we'll know more as the season gets here. And that's before we even get into money, which Martin pointed out above. Yes, Hester can flip the field, yes he's the best who has ever done that. Let's give our new STC a chance to show us what he has in mind before we go judging the teams personnel based on what Danny Smith has done, amongst other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan4128 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Got to go with DC9 here as Hester really hasn't done much on offense. His forte is STs and has been incredible in what he has accomplished there. However, to assume Hester can provide a legitimate threat on offense (even with KS callin the plays) appears to be a stretch. I believe this is more of a situation of "hoping" then actually being he "can" produce on offense. If the coaching staff felt he could help us and signed him, then I would support the move. However, at his age and the relatively pedestrian season he had in 2012, there is certainly reason to belive that he is on the downside of his career and could ultimately hamper the development of the young guys Shanny has brought in. I would say pass and continue to influx the youth movement. Hester simply doesn't provide anything, IMO, other than a stop-gap at STs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rk3025 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 If we did not have 12 WR's in camp then maybe he could tryout,but believe we have enough quality and quantity in the 90 signed prospects. Depth is name of the game and Shanny now has that. Got to go with DC9 here as Hester really hasn't done much on offense. His forte is STs and has been incredible in what he has accomplished there. However, to assume Hester can provide a legitimate threat on offense (even with KS callin the plays) appears to be a stretch. I believe this is more of a situation of "hoping" then actually being he "can" produce on offense. If the coaching staff felt he could help us and signed him, then I would support the move. However, at his age and the relatively pedestrian season he had in 2012, there is certainly reason to belive that he is on the downside of his career and could ultimately hamper the development of the young guys Shanny has brought in. I would say pass and continue to influx the youth movement. Hester simply doesn't provide anything, IMO, other than a stop-gap at STs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMVLeGenD Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Do people here not value special teams? Jacoby Jones proved just how valuable having an explosive KR is in the Super Bowl. Hester is the best freaking KR of all time. At least give him a look. And on Crawford, he only played PR. There's a reason he didn't return kickoffs. There's no way we can go into the yr with Niles Paul returning kicks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan4128 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Do people here not value special teams? Jacoby Jones proved just how valuable having an explosive KR is in the Super Bowl. Hester is the best freaking KR of all time. At least give him a look. And on Crawford, he only played PR. There's a reason he didn't return kickoffs. There's no way we can go into the yr with Niles Paul returning kicks again! DMV, just cause there are folks who would prefer to pass on Hester translates into undermining the value of STs? That's quite a leap of judgment, wouldn't you say? I believe all facets of the game are important, including STs. However, that does not necessarily mean I'm for a certain player there. You provided Jones as an example, and while I agree, how does that justify the signing of Hester who is a) older, b has more wear and tear, c) had a very average season in 2012, and d) would likely add little value to the offense and perhaps stunt the development of a younger player. Fans do value STs for the most part, DMV. They just have seen enough over the years to now realize big name, has-beens are not the answer. Hester will more than likely go down as one of the greatest KRs the league has seen, but that does not mean he is that now at this stage of his career. If we did not have 12 WR's in camp then maybe he could tryout,but believe we have enough quality and quantity in the 90 signed prospects. Depth is name of the game and Shanny now has that. Got to go with DC9 here as Hester really hasn't done much on offense. His forte is STs and has been incredible in what he has accomplished there. However, to assume Hester can provide a legitimate threat on offense (even with KS callin the plays) appears to be a stretch. I believe this is more of a situation of "hoping" then actually being he "can" produce on offense. If the coaching staff felt he could help us and signed him, then I would support the move. However, at his age and the relatively pedestrian season he had in 2012, there is certainly reason to belive that he is on the downside of his career and could ultimately hamper the development of the young guys Shanny has brought in. I would say pass and continue to influx the youth movement. Hester simply doesn't provide anything, IMO, other than a stop-gap at STs. Agreed, RK. Shanny seems satified with the depth we have there. I'm loving the depth across the board. Particularly the young depth we've acquired, which mixed with the vets make for a strong team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rk3025 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Any player signed after the first game can be cut without having salary locked in for the season. We might look at free agents then without much liability if they do not fit in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Your post said that our arguments (not just mine, but others) hold no merit. I'm saying they absolutely do. Here is what my post actually said: Oh, and that whole line of psuedo-logic: ' if player X could play then team Y wouldn't let them go' is so obviously flawed its not worth arguing and its quite ironic and hypocritical to use this argument in a Free Agency Thread. Since this is a FREE AGENCY thread ANY player available to be mentioned in this thread is ONLY available because their previous team is letting them go. Therefore the argument: if player insert name here was any good then why is insert team name here letting them go? Applies equally to every player in this thread. The above argument is bunk, spurious..etc. And the people making that argument against any player are better then that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I think Hester would be a great pick up as a return specialist - but he will probably command too big a deal to make that in anyway realistic. However I have to pick you up on the point you make above about Banks and Morgan being productive in our offense out of the backfield. Heck, I don't even know if he's even going to be available (could just be sports media speculation or competition posturing from a new HC) much less how much he would cost. To be clear, I expressed that I would want Hester for his special teams value. Last year we were a top 5 offense, we don't need to rely on Hester playing offense. I'm just speculating on how he could be used in this offense based on his skillset. Banks/Morgan production form the backfield: Once again I think perception/dislike clouds reality in Banks case. I happen to think 5.1 yards per carry is productive. Banks-7 carries 36 yards=5.1 ypc Morgan-3 carries 25 yards=8.3 ypc And if the plan is to expand this role (I don't think it is the plan) but if the plan is to expand this role I think Hester obviously is better fit then Banks and Morgan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan4128 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 And if the plan is to expand this role (I don't think it is the plan) but if the plan is to expand this role I think Hester obviously is better fit then Banks and Morgan. This is you speculating regardless of your opinion. You can think Hester is better as a returner regardless of who we have on the roster, but that doesn't make you right. Facts are, he was pedestrian last season as a STs ace. Do you have an argument for that, DG? For you to make an argument for a player on the decline makes me want to group you with the Vinnie crowd, and I've enjoyed and respected your posts. Therefore, I will disregard this argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I think Hester would be a great pick up as a return specialist - but he will probably command too big a deal to make that in anyway realistic. However I have to pick you up on the point you make above about Banks and Morgan being productive in our offense out of the backfield. Banks/Morgan production form the backfield: Once again I think perception/dislike clouds reality in Banks case. I happen to think 5.1 yards per carry is productive. Banks-7 carries 36 yards=5.1 ypc Morgan-3 carries 25 yards=8.3 ypc And if the plan is to expand this role (I don't think it is the plan) but if the plan is to expand this role I think Hester obviously is better fit then Banks and Morgan. The average per carry on Banks is very misleading - he got 21 of those 36 yards on a single carry which was a reverse if I recall so not out of the backfield although its a very small sample size to really draw any conclusions. He had 8 catches as well and averaged 1.9 yards per reception which is just terrible. Morgan did do better but again its a really small sample size. I totally agree that a player like Hester would be a much better fit than either Banks or Morgan in this role but I think they have Thompson and Helu marked for it and I would like to see what one or both of these young guys we drafted can do in that role rather than bring in someone like Hester on the kind of contract he would likely command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Your post said that our arguments (not just mine, but others) hold no merit. I'm saying they absolutely do. Here is what my post actually said: >Oh, and that whole line of psuedo-logic: ' if player X could play then team Y wouldn't let them go' is so obviously flawed its not worth arguing and its quite ironic and hypocritical to use this argument in a Free Agency Thread. Since this is a FREE AGENCY thread ANY player available to be mentioned in this thread is ONLY available because their previous team is letting them go. Therefore the argument: if player insert name here was any good then why is insert team name here letting them go? Applies equally to every player in this thread. The above argument is bunk, spurious..etc. And the people making that argument against any player are better then that. You're not wrong. But most of the Free Agents weren't cut... they were just not re-signed for whatever reason (performance, youth that is ready to take over for said player, money). That's the difference. And there is a difference between the two. EDIT: And none of this changes the fact that Hester hasn't played well on offense... so he'd be taking up a spot just for teams. Go look at the roster cuts thread that I posted yesterday, brother... it's tough enough right now to make this team, you are GOING to lose a contributor who could potentially start in a couple of years if you keep one guy for returning kicks. It's not that I don't value special teams, it's more that I am looking big picture at the franchise and that this isn't a move that I'd make if I am the Bruce or Mike. Will it help teams? Absolutely. Will Kyle come up with something cool on offense for Hester? I'm sure he will. Is it going to cost us a player or two that will get picked up by another team and possibly groomed into a starter (not overvaluing here, we have that much talent this year) for a 31 year old KR specialist whose team doesn't want him anymore? Yes it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Lets not delve into semantics. Cut or unsigned the player is not being retained by their old team. Therefore the team didn't want them. The greater irony is right now Hester is the only player in this thread that is currently still being retained by his team. Therefore tthat already spurious psuedo argument you repeat in your last sentence above is even less applicable to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Lets not delve into semantics. Cut or unsigned the player is not being retained by their old team. Therefore the team didn't want them. The greater irony is right now Hester is the only player in this thread that is currently still being retained by his team. Therefore tthat already spurious psuedo argument you repeat in your last sentence above is even less applicable to him. Ah... the ole' psuedo argument for a psuedo scenario.... Come on DG! Why even have a message board at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 The average per carry on Banks is very misleading - he got 21 of those 36 yards on a single carry which was a reverse if I recall so not out of the backfield although its a very small sample size to really draw any conclusions. He had 8 catches as well and averaged 1.9 yards per reception which is just terrible. Morgan did do better but again its a really small sample size. I totally agree that a player like Hester would be a much better fit than either Banks or Morgan in this role but I think they have Thompson and Helu marked for it and I would like to see what one or both of these young guys we drafted can do in that role rather than bring in someone like Hester on the kind of contract he would command Hester wouldn't need to take any reps away from those guys, I would want him even if he didnt play one snap on offense, but the skillset to contribute is there if needed/utilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 This team isn't even close to signing "specialty" guys for ST or even packages. We have a lot of depth, but our STers are still going to need to show worth at O or D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Right.....this team would never look at a Josh Cribbs huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Right.....this team would never look at a Josh Cribbs huh? Josh Cribbs was going to cost some biscuits and gravy... Josh Cribbs was also not likely to make the roster. I believe we signed Stallworth shortly there after... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markmills67 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Don't get me wrong I rate London Fletcher as 1 of the best redskins Of all time, but I was disappointed When he didn't take a pay cut for the team to be able to sign a much better FA RT, rather than retreads Pashos and Trueblood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Why do you put the onus for signing a RT on Fletcher's contract? I want a better RT also but its the FO issue not London's. London deserves every penny in my book. In the words of Teddy KGB ~let that man has his money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Don't get me wrong I rate London Fletcher as 1 of the best redskins Of all time, but I was disappointed When he didn't take a pay cut for the team to be able to sign a much better FA RT, rather than retreads Pashos and Trueblood. You think "one of the best LBs in Redskins History" should take a pay cut, even though the coach said he would never even think of asking him to, in his last year playing (most likely) tarnished his legacy when he didn't freely offer a paycut to sign a positional player at a position we still wouldn't have been able to afford if a major FA was available, even though there really wasn't one worth what they wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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