NFL.com: Robert Griffin III triggers Washington Redskins' pistol offense

[Oldfan]

I get what you're saying OF, but you'd still have to account for Griffin's ability to extend plays moving laterally, not just elusive but very fast as well, and the secondary would have to hold up that much longer. That pressures it, and then you get the run threat from the QB or swingout pass to a FB chipping and dropping out, etc.

You don't seem to be visualizing the safeties being right in the middle of anything coming to their side after they have released the WR from the press.

[MartinC]

How would you defense it? My first thought is to roll the safeties under -- have them press on the WRs as their first assignment. Then, they turn the WRs over to the CBs and play a short outside zone to provide an extra body to stop pass or run to their side.

The corners would play man coverage but with the advantage of having help from the safety pressing the WR at the LOS.

I'm not sure you can commit both your safeties up in some kind of press coverage - your asking a lot of your corners in man with no deep help. You might slow the running game but you are going to give up a lot of big plays down the field.

I think you have to play more zone than man especially with a QB who is a threat to run like RGIII - you dont want your DBs with their backs to him chasing receivers as he breaks contain. If you run say cover 3 and drop both corners into the deep thirds that would let you bring a safety up to build your 8 man box and maybe limit chunk plays in the passing game but it would give some shorter routes away. You have to find some way of taking away that deep cross off play action and thats tough to do.

[Oldfan]

I'm not sure you can commit both your safeties up in some kind of press coverage - your asking a lot of your corners in man with no deep help. You might slow the running game but you are going to give up a lot of big plays down the field.

Do you really think it's too much to ask the corners to cover their man when the safety makes it tough for their man to get off the LOS?

I think you have to play more zone than man especially with a QB who is a threat to run like RGIII - you dont want your DBs with their backs to him chasing receivers as he breaks contain

How often will they be trailing when their man is pressed by the safety at the LOS? And how often will RG3 break contain when he has a safety to deal with whether he goes wide left or wide right?

If you run say cover 3 and drop both corners into the deep thirds that would let you bring a safety up to build your 8 man box and maybe limit chunk plays in the passing game but it would give some shorter routes away. You have to find some way of taking away that deep cross off play action and thats tough to do.

Isn't the WR's job running ANY route much easier when he's allowed a free run off the LOS? But, if you have the corner press him 1) the smaller corner will be less effective than the safety in doing it and 2) he will need help deep.

[LD0506]

You don't seem to be visualizing the safeties being right in the middle of anything coming to their side after they have released the WR from the press.

I get you, but your best point is a basic one, there are always tradeoffs and Griffin seems able to track and exploit any of them, which is why I still advocate focusing on O line protection upgrades in the offseason over maybe more pressing needs. Keep him upright and give him more time and he'll kill any D.

[Oldfan]

I get you, but your best point is a basic one, there are always tradeoffs and Griffin seems able to track and exploit any of them, which is why I still advocate focusing on O line protection upgrades in the offseason over maybe more pressing needs. Keep him upright and give him more time and he'll kill any D.

I agree. As a defensive coordinator, I want to take away what the Skins O is doing best right now and force them to do what they are not good at yet -- and that's protecting Robert in the pocket.

[sjinhan]

I agree. As a defensive coordinator, I want to take away what the Skins O is doing best right now and force them to do what they are not good at yet -- and that's protecting Robert in the pocket.

Ok the problem with full man and zero coverage is this... You HAVE to keep contain because if RG3 breaks contain and the CBs are running downfield with their backs turned.... It's going to be a big play every time.

This isn't a gimmick offense as some of the outsiders claim... The defenses know what's coming so we are fooling them... Success of the offense comes down to RG3 making the quick and correct decision on every play.

[jgbkab1]

This offense will get figured out. No offense is truly unstoppable. With that being said, Kyle and Mike are not running the exact same offense from the NO game. You see subtle changes in our offense from week to week. Bubble screens are used less often, RG3 targets more deep throws, etc.

The one element I would take away is Garçon across the middle. In the last 3 games, that's what broke the defenses back.

[Oldfan]

Ok the problem with full man and zero coverage is this... You HAVE to keep contain because if RG3 breaks contain and the CBs are running downfield with their backs turned.... It's going to be a big play every time.....

You don't seem to know that the topic is about my comments in Post 7.

[MartinC]

Do you really think it's too much to ask the corners to cover their man when the safety makes it tough for their man to get off the LOS?

I do. There are not many corners in the NFL who you can leave 1 on 1 with the better NFL receivers even if you have them bumped at the LOS. YOu will get away with it some of the time but you will be burnt too often downfield IMO to make it a strategy you can use as your base strategy. Factor in as well not many safeties are used to playing press coverage and there is good chance that they will get beaten off the line more than you are expecting.

How often will they be trailing when their man is pressed by the safety at the LOS? And how often will RG3 break contain when he has a safety to deal with whether he goes wide left or wide right?

Again I think you are overestimating the ability of most NFL safeties to play press coverage, but even setting that aside if you have receivers running deep routes to clear out the deep coverage you will have DBs out of position to provide run support. Your safety sat out in the shallow zone can provide run support but I can also block him with my third option back - first option is inside run, second option is QB keep third option is the trail back/WR on an outside pitch. If my QB reads the DE inside and keeps it my trail back blocks your safety and RGIII is off to the races. The safety might beat the block sometimes but not all the time.

Isn't the WR's job running ANY route much easier when he's allowed a free run off the LOS? But, if you have the corner press him 1) the smaller corner will be less effective than the safety in doing it and 2) he will need help deep.

I agree with you here, I think that rerouting the receiver is a key defensive objective against any scheme - you let an NFL receiver get a free release and you are asking for trouble period. I dont agree that corners are less effective at press coverage than safeties though, I think the opposite is the case simply because safeties are very rarely asked to play press - they are just not used to it.

[skinsfan07]

This offense is going to be fun to watch for a long time. A lot of opposing team's fans are saying defensive coordinators will figure it out and find a way to stop it. That may be true, but I believe RG3 is so good at executing it, the defenders on the field can be coached up all week long, but they will still be confused. JPP bit hard on the play fake and tackled AM rather than holding the edge and RG3 broke a long run. How many times during the week do you think he was told to hold that edge??

Bingo. Coaches can tell players how to play certain plays all week, but guess what? Coaches aren't the ones on the field.

[LD0506]

The anecdotal conversations go "The QB needs to read the D postsnap" and "He has to take what the D gives him", in essence the O has to be fluid enough to adapt to what the opposing D allows, but when you see a kid executing the PA fake the way Rob does (never seen it better!) out of a scheme that intentionally masks the direction of the action with the QB given the trust to decide between multiple choices, then you are dictating to the D, making them read/react/adapt to what you're doing, interfering with their instinctive play and causing a second's hesitation in their decision cycle. We saw DEs unblocked, untouched, that still got conned like little old ladies mailing checks to Nigeria. I am not so much looking forward to what they replace this with as what it can evolve into schemewise.

[Oldfan]

I do. There are not many corners in the NFL who you can leave 1 on 1 with the better NFL receivers even if you have them bumped at the LOS.

I doubt that NFL corners are so much inferior to WRs, but we're both speculating.

Factor in as well not many safeties are used to playing press coverage and there is good chance that they will get beaten off the line more than you are expecting.

I don't expect a big learning curve. And, the bigger safety, once trained, will do a better job with the press.

...but even setting that aside if you have receivers running deep routes to clear out the deep coverage you will have DBs out of position to provide run support.

You won't need to rely so much on the DB for run support.

Your safety sat out in the shallow zone can provide run support but I can also block him with my third option back...

You can try, but the safety is in a strong position with anything coming at him. Besides, your third option back can't do two things at once. So, he's not a third option.

Besides, it seems to me that most long completions happen when the corner expects deep help but doesn't get it. My defense solves that problem.

[RandyHolt]

It seems like defenses one way or another have to load up and stop the run first, be aggressive. They cannot bother to read, because RG3 is reading them first. If they basically do the same thing on every play, they take away the ability to read by RG3.

I would load up the LOS, and focus aggressively on stopping Morris. No reading, key on him early. I think if they can take out Morris, play action dies, our passing game dies, and RG3's wheels are all we have left. Use our coaches hesitancy to expose him to injury, in their favor. We are not going to run RG3 10+ times no matter what, right?

[TheGreek1973]

Several posters have said it and i will repeat it. It can't be countered successfully because you have a world class athletic QB with strong and accurate arm to make it successful. if you QB is not fast enough tot round the Edge the DE will not hesitate. And since they have the angle I don't think there is another QB other than Vick maybe to be able to do this. Cam or Tebow can't do it because even though they are fast, they don't get up to speed as fast as RGII.

In other words is not as simple as learning running this type of offense unless you have that type of QB. Add in the mix the fact that Mike S running offense is effective now for over 20 years and bingo you have the best of all world. Morris is good guys but for a rookie to get this many yards with 4 games to go its also the blocking scheme that helps a lot. And this offense is getting better by the game. Yes we only scored 17 against the midgets but let say Morris doesn't fumble, at least 3 more and add another 3 if we had to kick a FG instead of RGIII taking a knee. Thats 23 points and i gave us FGs instead of TDs.

Also don't forget in the first half our D couldn't get off the field.

[Saqs]

Lets see what the Ravens dial up.

[Uno Mas]

How would you defense it? My first thought is to roll the safeties under -- have them press on the WRs as their first assignment. Then, they turn the WRs over to the CBs and play a short outside zone to provide an extra body to stop pass or run to their side.

The corners would play man coverage but with the advantage of having help from the safety pressing the WR at the LOS.

I hope defenses start plating us like this.

My money is on PG beating that the majority of the time.

[LuRedskins]

Besides, it seems to me that most long completions happen when the corner expects deep help but doesn't get it. My defense solves that problem.

The TEs would torch this. if you let them release there is no one in the middle to cover unless the linebackers follow, then the run is wide open.

[skinsmarydu]

It baffles me how RG3 and M64 need to be/are able to operate in synch with one another. One would think that the 2 would botch handoffs more frequently.

I thought the same through the first few games, but when I hear Falcons fans saying,"You can't see the ball! You have no idea what he's gonna do", I have to believe that they've really worked hard on the fakes, too. It just goes to show how much these two rookies want to WIN. Now, not a few years from now. It's hard work and effort, and we haven't seen that in 20 years.

Hail!

[darrelgreenie]

Any defense that brings the safeties down into the box is gonna have to contend with huge runs up the middle that a S would normally limit to say a 10 yard gain.

I

[Saqs]

LOL. I would love to see a team employ Oldfans philosophy in trying to combat our formations. The middle is wide open. Our inside zone game or TEs down the seam would kill it IMO.

[MartinC]

The TEs would torch this. if you let them release there is no one in the middle to cover unless the linebackers follow, then the run is wide open.

Thats a good point. When the Eagles played the Cowboys they had their two safeties playing outside doubling Bryant and Austin. They clearly decided to take them away. Result was the middle of the field was wide open all day and it resulted in over 100 yards receiving for Witten and 123 yards rushing for a Dallas team who had not been able to run on anyone.

[cphil006]

I don't want to hate on the offense, because it's surpassed my expectations for this year by leaps and bounds, but is anyone besides me a little disappointed in the lack of learning drops from under center for Griffin? I think this could be a new offense that breaks the mold as long as we fill all the offense with talent, but on the chance we don't and defenses figure it out, I worry a little bit about running a "conventional offense". I know we've done some amazing things this year, but you never know.

Do you mean he learns less when he's under center, or he should be under center more to expand the offense?

[zCommander]

Nice write up. I am not a big X and O kind of a guy but has learned a lot from people smarter than I here on ES.

But will ask this anyway and maybe OF can help on this one: How many WR and TE can be accounted for by two safeties at LOS? Isn't this the same as a semi-blitz leaving the middle open for a quick slant and huge yardage since there is no help at top?

[Momma There Goes That Man]

The discussion is about stopping OUR offense, not ALL offenses.

The idea is to take away what the offense does best.

You might slow RG3 running wide with the safety out on each side but if you line the WR up further wide then RG3 can just cut quicker inside before he gets to the safeties.

Another point is that he is so quick in his reads and decisions on the option that he could take it and be upfield before the safety has a chance to get off the WR. If we notice that coverage the WR can then also jam the S. The CB is free but I assume he is a little off the LOS anyway and would not be able to prevent Grffin from picking up 5-6 yards a pop.

Another counter would be going 3WR set out of the pistol with Moss in the slot. There is no safety to jam him and he is essentially one on one with a nickel corner. I would take those odds.

What do you think?

I also want to add that I do appreciate the idea and also your posts. They are always well reasoned and thought provoking.

[skinsmarydu]

I'm an X and O kinda girl, and when OF speaks, I listen. Probably knows more than all of us together.