Repetition, Repetiton, Repetition...

[Voice_of_Reason]

In the 2010 preseason, Kyle was talking about installing 150 plays. Since the ZBS run game only requires six or seven, I assumed that the rest were pass plays.

Why do you think our receivers are false starting so much?

Because they are not paying attention.

Sorry, this is just a silly argument. This reads like fishing for just another reason to bash Kyle. With so many legitimate ones, why anybody has to manufacture one is beyond me.

The WRs are professionals, they should be able to look at the damn ball and react when it is snapped. I have some sympathy for the OL on the road, but never for WRs. And I don't care how many plays the playbook has. You're coached this since pop warner: If you're outside, don't move until the ball moves.

Nobody will ever know for sure, but I'm going to think it has a lot more to do with lack of discipline, lack of concentration than "thinking" about their route. If that's actually the case, then they all need to be released, because they don't fit the basic requirements of an NFL WR. I'm not even really willing to admit that this could be bad WR coaching. This is so fundamental. It should never happen to a professional WR. Ever. No matter what. Under any circumstance.

At some point, the player has to be responsible. This is one of those situations.

And for 150 plays, I have no problem with asking a group of people making 300k at the minimum to learn 150 pass plays. It's their FREAKING JOB. It's the only thing they have to do. If their job requirement was to memorize and recite back, verbatim, the first 150 pages of Harry Potter, and that is all they had to do, all day, all night, then that's what I would expect them to be able to do.

[Oldfan]

Because they are not paying attention.

If we were talking about one player that explanation would make sense. But, when the group is having a problem, it doesn't.

And for 150 plays, I have no problem with asking a group of people making 300k at the minimum to learn 150 pass plays.

My point is not about whether the request is reasonable. It's about whether asking them to learn 150 is intelligent.

Read my Post 17 in which I linked an article about the Colts scheme with Peyton -- the smallest playbook in the NFL.

[KDawg]

Read my Post 17 in which I linked an article about the Colts scheme with Peyton -- the smallest playbook in the NFL.

When you have Peyton Manning who can read things coming from a defense even when they are sugaring it, you can afford to have a limited playbook because he'll call the play that attacks the openings. Rodney Harrison said on NBC a few weeks ago that the only quarterback he's ever faced that kept him up at night was Manning. He said he'd be on a blitz and not showing it at all and Manning would point him out and alert the OL that a blitz was coming from Harrison.

Harrison said they only had success because they had a bunch of veterans and could audible out of the play in an instant and even then they didn't make the right decision all the time.

Peyton Manning is a luxury that very few teams have ever had.

[Oldfan]

When you have Peyton Manning who can read things coming from a defense even when they are sugaring it, you can afford to have a limited playbook because he'll call the play that attacks the openings. Rodney Harrison said on NBC a few weeks ago that the only quarterback he's ever faced that kept him up at night was Manning. He said he'd be on a blitz and not showing it at all and Manning would point him out and alert the OL that a blitz was coming from Harrison.

Harrison said they only had success because they had a bunch of veterans and could audible out of the play in an instant and even then they didn't make the right decision all the time.

Peyton Manning is a luxury that very few teams have ever had.

Peyton certainly advanced the state of the art in the way QBs prepare. But, he didn't do anything that other intelligent QBs couldn't be taught to do. That small scheme had to have been put together with plays that fit together like a Swiss watch. If the defense does this, we do that... That's the kind of thing I meant by keeping the complexity under the hood.

[KDawg]

Peyton certainly advanced the state of the art in the way QBs prepare. But, he didn't do anything that other intelligent QBs couldn't be taught to do. That small scheme had to have been put together with plays that fit together like a Swiss watch. If the defense does this, we do that... That's the kind of thing I meant by keeping the complexity under the hood.

And while I believe that ideally, in a utopia, you're 100% correct. I think you're underestimating the difficulty in getting a guy to be as observant and prepared as Peyton Manning. Manning's football IQ is off the charts to begin with.

Putting it in another way, if it were that easy to do, everyone would be doing it.

[Oldfan]

And while I believe that ideally, in a utopia, you're 100% correct. I think you're underestimating the difficulty in getting a guy to be as observant and prepared as Peyton Manning. Manning's football IQ is off the charts to begin with.

Putting it in another way, if it were that easy to do, everyone would be doing it.

Who, besides Tom Moore and Peyton, could teach it? Eventually, every QB will be doing it.

[pjfootballer]

according to Greg Cosell studying the offense for NFL Matchup, the Skins are running a very simple offense right now, they just cover the simplicity up with multiple formations

Joe Gibbs had a very simple playbook his first time around where they would run the same play out of multiple formations, depending on what the defense was showing. I was sure I read somewhere that Shanahan's offense has the same principle in the running game as Gibbs, but I can't speak for the passing game.

---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 11:17 AM ----------

Jim's defense takes 3 years to master? Hec, I can take a dump in 3 minutes, and it matches his scheme to a tee. I was so disappointed to see he still had a job at 5 p.m. monday, so unless the oplayers take it upon themselves to disregard his wonderful scheme, things will doubtfully get better; I hope i'm wrong, but this is the glaring problem, being we were in most every game until the defense plays their base prevent throughout the 4th qtr.

I was sure that blown coverage on the 82 yard pass would have sealed his doom.

---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------

Another reason is the snap count. I can't hear it on TV. You can usually hear a guy like Rodgers or Brady bark out the signals. I don't know how many silent snap counts we're working with, and I don't know how often Griff calls out a cadence, but I can't hear it on TV. When a receiver has to look in towards the football to see the snap because they can't hear the count (or there isn't one) it takes their eye off the coverage which means choice routes become more difficult to run, and if a DB is jamming them it becomes much more difficult.Some receivers compensate by anticipating the snap count and jumping offsides.

I could hear it, but barely. Our fans still haven't learned to be quiet. But you know, I think part of that is when I go to the games, the fans are just SO excited for Griffin to do something, they get loud. I'm not sure that they realize what they are doing. Plus, over the years, we've had ALOT of visiting fans in our stadium.

---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 11:36 AM ----------

Peyton certainly advanced the state of the art in the way QBs prepare. But, he didn't do anything that other intelligent QBs couldn't be taught to do. That small scheme had to have been put together with plays that fit together like a Swiss watch. If the defense does this, we do that... That's the kind of thing I meant by keeping the complexity under the hood.

True that other QBs could be taught to run the same basic plays that Peyton and Moore's offense ran, but what I think KDawg is saying is, Peyton is the rare QB that sees things "beyond" the basic plays that other QBs cannot see. You can prepare Blaine Gabbert the same way you can Peyton, but when they get to the LOS, Peyton has that next level that most QBs don't have, like the Rodney Harrison blitz example.

[Skinsinparadise]

Simple/disguise used in this context is to generic for me to understand and I've seen far to often ambiguity over terms derail a conversation. But, if by don't disguise you mean fewer formations then no I don't think the disguise or lack there of makes the offense easier to stop. Its about execution. And running the bulk of an offense from the formations adds a level of disguise in itself. That's part of the reason this offense's boot stretch/swap series of plays is successful they're run from the same formations and all have the same initial action.

Smart football did a breakdown of Tom Moore/Peyton Manning offense and had very few formations and plays. I'll post it later if i get a chance.

The 2nd part of my point which you quote about having a weak receiving crew was a key part of my point. They line up in a formation where the play is totally predictable can the opposing defense now stop the mighty Aldrick Robinson, I say sure. Rg 3 isn't exactly throwing to Reggie Wayne.

[Oldfan]

...True that other QBs could be taught to run the same basic plays that Peyton and Moore's offense ran, but what I think KDawg is saying is, Peyton is the rare QB that sees things "beyond" the basic plays that other QBs cannot see. You can prepare Blaine Gabbert the same way you can Peyton, but when they get to the LOS, Peyton has that next level that most QBs don't have, like the Rodney Harrison blitz example.

Granted that Gabbert would not run the Indy scheme as well as Peyton.

But, my argument is that any QB would be better off running a smaller scheme like Peyton's than running a much larger playbook because far more repetition makes for better execution -- and execution is more important than having a bigger selection of plays to throw at the defense.

Better execution = fewer mistakes, fewer penalties (offenses don't beat themselves).

[darrelgreenie]

The 2nd part of my point which you quote about having a weak receiving crew was part of my point. They line up in a formation where the play is totally predictable can the opposing defense now stop the mighty Aldrick Robinson, I say sure. Rg 3 isn't exactly throwing to Reggie Wayne.

Um..okay....I think you're being dismissive of the main point of my post and your description of 'totally predictable' doesn't match anything I've suggested. And the point you fail to realize is running a lot of diferent plays from the same formation is a form of disguise.

I love the hyperbole, Aldrick Robinson is our 5th WR. So yeah, most teams 5th WR is going to be less effective then their #2-3 WR.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Under the new CBA rules, teams have a very limited number of practices in pads - and this includes training camp. I think there has been a league-wide drop in fundamentals because of this. These guys simply do not play as much football as players did 30 years ago. This is not a Sam Huff-esque "In the old days, it was better" rant. It's simply math.

[Skinsinparadise]

Um..okay....I think you're being dismissive of the main point of my post and your description of 'totally predictable' doesn't match anything I've suggested. And the point you fail to realize is running a lot of diferent plays from the same formation is a form of disguise.

I love the hyperbole, Aldrick Robinson is our 5th WR. So yeah, most teams 5th WR is going to be less effective then their #2-3 WR.

Robinson started last game, maybe he's number 5 when everyone is healthy but they are not, so am talking present, and right now he's arguably the only "potential" deep threat. But, I got no problem subbing Hankerson for Robinson. I have as much less faith in him. Morgan and Santana are ok but aren't IMO #1 receivers. Morgan doesn't stretch the field and Santana does just on occasion. You responded to my point so am following up on my own point and elaborating on it, that's all. if Cosell who we both like is saying this offense is super simple but just disguised some with formations. I just wonder what a simple offense with less disguise and more predictability would do with IMO mediocre players.

Recall some of the 80s Skins players saying the opponents would know they would running 40 gut but they couldn't stop it anyway. To that point, I do think having marquee or at least above average Wrs affect the point in hand. The Skins know Manning is likely going to target Victor Cruz in a key spot but can they stop him, are they going to win that matchup? I don't think there is any guy on this team that the opposing defense is scared of -- if you likely know based on the formation that Hankerson is going to run a post route and the ball is headed his way, IMO he isn't that hard to stop conversely if its Reggie Wayne or an above average WR, different story.

[daveakl]

What if I told you this:

Logan Paulsen has 3 false starts

Niles Paul has 2

Fred Davis has 1

Hankerson has 1

Moss has 1

(OL has the other 6)

As a team we have less then 4 other teams, the same as 1, and 7 other teams are within 2 of us.

[Oldfan]

.... I don't think there is any guy on this team that the opposing defense is scared of -- if you likely know based on the formation that Hankerson is going to run a post route and the ball is headed his way, IMO he isn't that hard to stop conversely if its Reggie Wayne or an above average WR, different story.

In the NFL, there are several good coaches who would agree with you. Obviously Mike Shanahan is one of them.

I am a proponent of simplicity, so I like the Tom Moore/Peyton approach. Fewer plays, fewer formations, lots of concentrated practice -- will raise the performance of all players -- including untalented ones.

[Oldfan]

What if I told you this:

Logan Paulsen has 3 false starts

Niles Paul has 2

Fred Davis has 1

Hankerson has 1

Moss has 1

(OL has the other 6)

As a team we have less then 4 other teams, the same as 1, and 7 other teams are within 2 of us.

So, we are tied for 28th in the league? I wouldn't have guessed we were that high.

[Skinsinparadise]

What if I told you this:

Logan Paulsen has 3 false starts

Niles Paul has 2

Fred Davis has 1

Hankerson has 1

Moss has 1

(OL has the other 6)

As a team we have less then 4 other teams, the same as 1, and 7 other teams are within 2 of us.

Shows its not all on the Wrs. Paulsen obviously is the biggest problem with it especially considering he hasn't played full time until recently.

[Skinsinparadise]

In the NFL, there are several good coaches who would agree with you. Obviously Mike Shanahan is one of them.

I am a proponent of simplicity, so I like the Tom Moore/Peyton approach. Fewer plays, fewer formations, lots of concentrated practice -- will raise the performance of all players -- including untalented ones.

My point is simplicity IS part of the game plan -- limed plays and limited routes -- they are just putting a premium on the opposing defenses not being able to read the play too easy. I agree with you within a certain context -- if Rg 3 was throwing to Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks I do think the defense can read the play and still not stop it. But I have so little faith in the current WR crew -- that I think ANY of these guys can be easily stopped if the play is diagnosed in advanced. I genuinely do think the current crop (sans Garcon and Davis) is the worst in the league. DG thought I was picking on Robinson, but I really don't care which WR we are talking about. Santana has a flash or two but doesn't have the speed he once had and also has inconsistent hands.

[daveakl]

So, we are tied for 28th in the league? I wouldn't have guessed we were that high.

We have played an extra game though compared to most of the teams around us.

Interestingly, if you pull Paulsen then we are above avg. as far as the TE/WR position.

[Skinsinparadise]

I love the hyperbole, Aldrick Robinson is our 5th WR. So yeah, most teams 5th WR is going to be less effective then their #2-3 WR.

If there is hyperbole it isn't directed at you. Am just VERY frustrated at the Wr crew. More disappointed in Mike not finding a good WR in the draft than am worried about Kyle's playcalling. Hank and Robinson still have time to show they got it, but am running out of patience. Morgan to me is a decent but not a great possession Wr, with inconsistent hands though better hands than the others. I can't fault Santana much for his age he's doing OK. But IMO its really an abysmal bunch without Garcon and Davis.

[Oldfan]

My point is simplicity IS part of the game plan -- limed plays and limited routes -- they are just putting a premium on the opposing defenses not being able to read the play too easy...

Your definition of simplicity settles for a lower standard than mine. You are giving our poor receivers twice as much to think about pre-snap than absolutely necessary.

[KDawg]

We have played an extra game though compared to most of the teams around us.

Interestingly, if you pull Paulsen then we are above avg. as far as the TE/WR position.

And if you remove RG3's rushing stats we're nowhere near as impressive on the ground, either

[daveakl]

And if you remove RG3's rushing stats we're nowhere near as impressive on the ground, either

Sure, but to be fair, RGIII is our starter and was designed to be from the start. Paulsen has a much more increased roll then was planned and the new CBA strictly limits how much practice he can get at it after losing Davis.

[Oldfan]

...Interestingly, if you pull Paulsen then we are above avg. as far as the TE/WR position.

Why is that interesting? If you pull the worst out of any group, the average goes down. That's why we don't do it if we want a useful stat.

[Skinsinparadise]

Your definition of simplicity settles for a lower standard than mine. You are giving our poor receivers twice as much to think about pre-snap than absolutely necessary.

looks like the problem based on stats just shown on the thread is with the TEs and O line so those are more blocking related.

[pjfootballer]

Granted that Gabbert would not run the Indy scheme as well as Peyton.

But, my argument is that any QB would be better off running a smaller scheme like Peyton's than running a much larger playbook because far more repetition makes for better execution -- and execution is more important than having a bigger selection of plays to throw at the defense.

Better execution = fewer mistakes, fewer penalties (offenses don't beat themselves).

Oh absolutely. That I agree with. I was just going a little beyond what KDawg was saying.