A meaningful discussion on The Religious Society of Friends (AKA Quakerism)

[SnyderShrugged]

Greetings!

Recently, my family and I have become a little disillusioned with our church and the inner politics that we have seen suddenly encroach on our worship experience.

In praying on it, for some reason the Quakers came into my mind again after periodic thoughts on what they believe and what its like to worship in their manner over the years. I think it was actually a member here that first mentioned them to me here years ago.

I am very intrigued, and more than a little nervous of exploring this approach to my faith. It seems very different in nature as compared to the sometimes near rock concert environment that I have been in for the last 2 years in terms of worship. (honestly tired of that scene, it feels more and more shallow to me)

I read this introduction to our local meeting house and found I was even more interested as a result..

http://www.charlottefriendsmeeting.org/aboutquakers.htm

Specifically this part...

Beliefs

Friends believe that God’s light, truth and love is revealed in every human being directly, without the requirement of any intermediary such as church, priest, or sacred book. Outward authorities, such as the Bible and the traditions of the church, are important but secondary sources of truth. We believe that since there is ‘that of God’ in every person, each one can know God in his or her ongoing personal experience. The Inner Light is not conscience, but it is that which enlightens conscience.

Friends have many different beliefs, ways of seeking, and levels of awareness. We have no creed or statement of faith. We do not require members to conform to a particular view about Jesus, although most Friends consider themselves Christians. Quakerism affirms that life is good and meaningful. Although recognizing the existence of evil on earth and opposing it in many ways, Quakerism strongly upholds the inherent goodness of humankind. If there is that of God in each person, then each one is sacred—each life, each mind, each heart. Every day is a day of creation.

My question to my fellow Christians and to any Members that practice Quakerism, Is there any conflict between traditional Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus with this manner of worship? Is there anything I should consider before opening this exploration for myself and my family?

Thanks a ton for this discussion!!

[dfitzo53]

I think calling the Bible a secondary source of truth would automatically put the Society of Friends at odds with traditional Christian beliefs.

[SnyderShrugged]

I think calling the Bible a secondary source of truth would automatically put the Society of Friends at odds with traditional Christian beliefs.

That was one that definitely interested me as well. Though, I'm not sure it is in conflict.

[Forehead]

Out of curiosity, what about the "rock concert' atmosphere turned you off? I'll admit, I rarely go to church, and when I was younger, it was the more traditional quiet prayer and sermon variety. Many churches now, including the one we go to occasionally, incorporate bands and hymns on Powerpoint, etc. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing, though I wouldn't describe it as a rock concert, it's still pretty muted. Just wondering what you didn't like about it. The inner politics I can understand...my wife's parents are devout, and politics drove them to a new church.

[SWFLSkins]

Native Americans built temporary places of worship that when destroyed or altered by animals or nature they would move. The reason was that the creator was telling them it was time to move. ebb and flow. Quoting from memory here, "When the stench of humanity interrupts the connection of man and Creator it must be rekindled anew elsewhere."

I gave a lot of thought to that when our family church was going through some fiscal issues and leadership addressed then suddenly hushed about it. People get more concerned with attendance, what someone is wearing and how much someone is giving that it breaks the spiritual connection. Organized Religion I feel has caused a big stink and is it's own enemy these days. Or often times the enemy of God. IMO>FWIW.

[SnyderShrugged]

Out of curiosity, what about the "rock concert' atmosphere turned you off? I'll admit, I rarely go to church, and when I was younger, it was the more traditional quiet prayer and sermon variety. Many churches now, including the one we go to occasionally, incorporate bands and hymns on Powerpoint, etc. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing, though I wouldn't describe it as a rock concert, it's still pretty muted. Just wondering what you didn't like about it. The inner politics I can understand...my wife's parents are devout, and politics drove them to a new church.

great question! Honestly, it was the fun atmosphere and music that originally brought us to our current church. I still really like it too! Though, there have been more and more recent occurrences politically within the hurch staff and congregation that sometimes paint the music as a veneer painted over people issues. Its hard for me to explain, but it seems to feel more shallow at times.

---------- Post added August-28th-2012 at 09:47 AM ----------

Native Americans built temporary places of worship that when destroyed or altered by animals or nature they would move. The reason was that the creator was telling them it was time to move. ebb and flow. Quoting from memory here, "When the stench of humanity interrupts the connection of man and Creator it must be rekindled anew elsewhere."

I gave a lot of thought to that when our family church was going through some fiscal issues and leadership addressed then suddenly hushed about it. People get more concerned with attendance, what someone is wearing and how much someone is giving that it breaks the spiritual connection. Organized Religion I feel has caused a big stink and is it's own enemy these days. Or often times the enemy of God. IMO>FWIW.

great quote! It does explain a little of what Ive been feeling lately. Its that "Man's imprint" on my beliefs that does sometimes concern me.

[Koolblue13]

It wouldn't hurt to check it out. Live simple so others may simply live is the basic gist of it.

[Dan T.]

Famous Quakers include Susan B. Anthony, the Cadburys of Cadbury's Chocolate, folk singer Joan Baez, William Cooper (founder of Cooperstown, NY), actors Ben Kingsley James Dean and Judi Dench, Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper, President Herbert Hoover, First Lady Dolly Madison, singer Dave Matthews, author James Michener, journalist Edward R. Murrow, President Richard Nixon, William Penn, singer Bonnie Raitt...

[SnyderShrugged]

It wouldn't hurt to check it out. Live simple so others may simply live is the basic gist of it.

That was the main appeal for me personally.

---------- Post added August-28th-2012 at 10:51 AM ----------

Famous Quakers include Susan B. Anthony, the Cadburys of Cadbury's Chocolate, folk singer Joan Baez, William Cooper (founder of Cooperstown, NY), actors Ben Kingsley James Dean and Judi Dench, Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper, President Herbert Hoover, First Lady Dolly Madison, singer Dave Matthews, author James Michener, journalist Edward R. Murrow, President Richard Nixon, William Penn, singer Bonnie Raitt...

What an eclectic list!

[alexey]

I like Quakerism's lack of focus on the dogma. At least they do not ask you to believe silly things like a loving/caring God who drowns sinners and creates a place where there is eternal infinite torture.

Also there is a lot to be said about the non-violence thing.

Still, imho, for all the great things about Quakerism, it is still an inferior option to getting rid of religion altogether.

[Dan T.]

That was the main appeal for me personally.

---------- Post added August-28th-2012 at 10:51 AM ----------

What an eclectic list!

I'd join just for the Bonnie Raitt connection. Or the chocolates.

[HogNose]

Famous Quakers include Susan B. Anthony, the Cadburys of Cadbury's Chocolate, folk singer Joan Baez, William Cooper (founder of Cooperstown, NY), actors Ben Kingsley James Dean and Judi Dench, Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper, President Herbert Hoover, First Lady Dolly Madison, singer Dave Matthews, author James Michener, journalist Edward R. Murrow, President Richard Nixon, William Penn, singer Bonnie Raitt...

Had no idea Dave Matthews & Ben Kingsley were Quakers. Very cool.....

I agree with many of their beliefs and never knew it. Love this part......

We believe that since there is ‘that of God’ in every person, each one can know God in his or her ongoing personal experience. The Inner Light is not conscience, but it is that which enlightens conscience.

[JMS]

My question to my fellow Christians and to any Members that practice Quakerism, Is there any conflict between traditional Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus with this manner of worship? Is there anything I should consider before opening this exploration for myself and my family?

Thanks a ton for this discussion!!

First off since their are no set doctrine or creeds for Quakerism discussing their beliefs becomes subject to generalities.

• The only teaching all Quakers have in common is George Fox’s “Inner Light” teaching. God can be found in each and every one of us.
  
• Some charismatics believe in handling snakes or talking in tongues, Quakers believe in shaking as they are overcome by God. Hence the name.
  
• Quakers are not really (exclusively?) Christians. Since they look for God in each of us, many Quakers feel belief in virgin birth, Mary, or even Jesus is not necessary towards their salvation.
  
• Quakers are associated with Pacifism.
  
• Quakers obviously do not believe in the Nician Creed which is the oldest, and the most standard definition for Christianity.
  
• Quakers don't really differentiate between doctrines either, thus any document becomes valid for there purposes, i.e. Tao Te Ching, Koran, etc.
  
• Some, but not all Quakers are Unitarian Universalists (by their own description) (i.e. all religions and beliefs are correct and of equal value.
  
• Central in Quaker teachings is tollerance.
  

[SnyderShrugged]

First off since their are no set doctrine or creeds for Quakerism discussing their beliefs becomes subject to generalities.

• Some charismatics believe in handling snakes or talking in tongues, Quakers believe in shaking as they are overcome by god. Hense the name.
  
• Quakers are not really Christians. Since they look for God in each of us, many Quakers feel belief in virgin birth, Mary, or even Jesus is not necessary towards their salvation.
  
• Quakers obviously do not believe in the Nician Creed which which is oldest, and the most standard definition for Christianity.
  
• Quakers don't really differentiate between doctrines either, thus any document becomes valid for there purposes, i.e. Tao Te Ching, Koran, etc.
  
• Some, but not all Quakers are Unitarian Universalists (by their own description) (i.e. all religions and beliefs are correct and of equal value.
  

I was given to understand that even though all Quakers do not consider themselves Christian, a great deal of them do? I actually like the ability to believe beyond doctrine.

[JMS]

I was given to understand that even though all Quakers do not consider themselves Christian, a great deal of them do? I actually like the ability to believe beyond doctrine.

While the Nicean Creed is the oldest and probable most respected and most main stream definition of what it is to be christian; a simpler and more inclusive definition would be simple to believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God. Quaker teachings do not support either of these definitions of Christianity.

Your question was "Is there any conflict between traditional Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus with this manner of worship?" Other than the belief in Jesus, Mary, Virgin birth, trinity, and bible. The answer is No. There is nothing in Quakerism to my mind which conflicts with any religion which allows/respects others choices; however there is also nothing in Quakerism to define them as Christian.

I think as you have already suggested, Christianity would be a personal choice inside a Quaker community. In Quakerism your religious services would cease to become an expression of religion (central for Christians would be Christ) and more a framework which your religion was practiced within?

[Rocky21]

"We do not require members to conform to a particular view about Jesus." I'd say this is a conflict with traditional Christian beliefs.

(BTW I am the direct descendant of a prominent Virginia Quaker.)

[JMS]

"We do not require members to conform to a particular view about Jesus." I'd say this is a conflict with traditional Christian beliefs.

(BTW I am the direct descendant of a prominent Virginia Quaker.)

The choice of the word "traditional" here is open to interpretation. If you come from a tradition of a personal relationship with God/Jesus there is nothing in Quakerism which conflicts with you maintaining your faith. If you come from a tradition where Christianity is more of a communal pursuit, then I can see your point.

[alexey]

The choice of the word "traditional" here is open to interpretation. If you come from a tradition of a personal relationship with God/Jesus there is nothing in Quakerism which conflicts with you maintaining your faith. If you come from a tradition where Christianity is more of a communal pursuit, then I can see your point.

Quakerism seems to reject dogmatic approaches to religion, which is a fundamental deviation from most religious traditions.

[JMS]

Quakerism seems to reject dogmatic approaches to religion, which is a fundamental deviation from most religious traditions.

True, but the question was "conflict"... I'm a christian and I don't feel there is anything contained in Quakerism that would conflict with my practice of Christianity.

There is nothing in my religion which would keep me from preying or worshiping along side of people who disagree with me as long as their is mutual respect for my beliefs which is something I try to give to others.

[alexey]

True, but the question was "conflict"... I'm a christian and I don't feel there is anything contained in Quakerism that would conflict with my practice of Christianity.

There is nothing in my religion which would keep me from preying or worshiping along side of people who disagree with me as long as their is mutual respect for my beliefs which is something I try to give to others.

Yes you can kneel next to each other and pray along just fine if you do not discuss what you believe, why you believe it, etc.

I would not say that "mutual respect" is the correct term for this. That seems more like mutual tolerance to me.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I went to a "Quaker College" in Greensboro NC, Guilford College for 2.5 years. I put it in quotes because it was founded on Quaker principles but I think I only met about 3 people there who were actually Quaker.

This was '99-'01. The head Quaker on campus was this guy who had an amish beard, rode a bike around campus and was a hell of a nice guy but never seemed to stand for anything. No real opinion about this, no real opinion about that. He also came across as pretty smug.

Except for two instances. In 1999 Colin Powell came to speak at the auditorium. He was there to talk about a program he was working with that'd benefit inner city youth and help kids with promise get a chance in life. It had absolutely nothing to do with his political beliefs, what he'd done in Desert Storm or anything remotely political. He talked about his background, his childhood, what this program meant to him and was given the key to the city. It was pretty nice, except for the dip**** hippie kids who asked him questions about our military operations in Desert Storm and were slightly disrespectful.

Anyway, there was a protest (these hippies would protest pretty much everything, they protested the outsourcing of the school bookstore) outside of the auditorium when Powell was walking in, faculty and students alike due to what role he played in the War. The head Quaker guy was the leader of it.

9/11 went down and there were outcries from students that day that America deserved it, America is an awful place and that they were happy it happened. The head Quaker guy didn't echo those sentiments but when I talked to him he was more concerned with how the USA would retaliate rather than the horrible tragedy that just occurred.

He just seemed wishy washy about everything, I'd talk to him sometimes and just never could quite figure out what he believed in. Being raised Christian, it was pretty different than what I'd been accustomed to.

I've never been to a Quaker meeting but my understanding of their church service was people joining together in a big room, standing up to speak and speaking only when something "moves" them. Other than that, they keep totally quiet and there's no real dialogue or exchange of thought.

[SnyderShrugged]

While the Nicean Creed is the oldest and probable most respected and most main stream definition of what it is to be christian; a simpler and more inclusive definition would be simple to believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God. Quaker teachings do not support either of these definitions of Christianity.

Your question was "Is there any conflict between traditional Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus with this manner of worship?" Other than the belief in Jesus, Mary, Virgin birth, trinity, and bible. The answer is No. There is nothing in Quakerism to my mind which conflicts with any religion which allows/respects others choices; however there is also nothing in Quakerism to define them as Christian.

I think as you have already suggested, Christianity would be a personal choice inside a Quaker community. In Quakerism your religious services would cease to become an expression of religion (central for Christians would be Christ) and more a framework which your religion was practiced within?

Cool, Thanks for the conversation JMS.

add: @SS, I think the main political stances that most Friends take are around pacifism, that would match the "Head guiy's" actions I think..

[JMS]

Yes you can kneel next to each other and pray along just fine if you do not discuss what you believe, why you believe it, etc.

few thoughts.

(1) I don't think a discussion of Christ or even a belief in Christ is a prerequisite to discuss the pro's and cons of Christs teachings as I understand them.

(2)According to Catholic Doctrine as codified in Vatican Council II; we believe all people of faith can obtain heaven and salvation; which would parallel Quakerism to some extent.. ( note, Pope Benedict recently voiced a different interpretation to this teaching and Quakerism in my estimation might be even broader than VCII )...

(3) "Mutual respect" is I feel a better term. Merely tolerating someone's opinion is different than respecting their opinion. Respect is better, even if you disagree with them.

(4) I don't kneel in church. ( again see Vatican Council II ).. although some Catholics do, which is there right.

---------- Post added August-28th-2012 at 02:13 PM ----------

The head Quaker guy didn't echo those sentiments but when I talked to him he was more concerned with how the USA would retaliate rather than the horrible tragedy that just occurred..

Well given the fact conservatively more than a hundred thousand casualties in Iraq were due to our response and only three thousand people died in the terrorist act on 9/11; I'd say the guy's concern was pretty well founded. Remembering Iraq was only 1/3 rd of our response to 9/11...

[alexey]

few thoughts.

(1) I don't think a discussion of Christ or even a belief in Christ is a prerequisite to discuss the pro's and cons of Christs teachings as I understand them.

(2)According to Catholic Doctrine as codified in Vatican Council II; we believe all people of faith can obtain heaven and salvation; which would parallel Quakerism to some extent.. ( note, Pope Benedict recently voiced a different interpretation to this teaching and Quakerism in my estimation might be even broader than VCII )...

(3) "Mutual respect" is I feel a better term. Merely tolerating someone's opinion is different than respecting their opinion. Respect is better, even if you disagree with them.

(4) I don't kneel in church. ( again see Vatican Council II ).. although some Catholics do, which is there right.

Good points. There is a reason why I specifically mentioned discussing beliefs and not actions. You will probably find a lot of agreement with people of other faiths as well as atheists about one but not the other.

I see tolerance as the necessary and the default state. Respect is better, sure, but respect is not automatic. Respect depends on what you believe and why you believe it. Do you respect a belief in Creationism?

[JMS]

Do you respect a belief in Creationism?

Sure why not. I don't see a problem with respecting Creationists, I also don't have a problem teaching it in science class as a possible alternative/ competitor/ augmentation to evolution. Hell I wouldn't even have a problem with letting Jimmy Swagart or some other spokesman for the Creationists writing the chapter on it for the textbook. I think it would make the class more interesting, help generate discussion and debate which is great for science classes.

Hell we teach the Greek Pagan Aristotle's ideas in the beginning of every Physics, Chemistry, and Biology book; he didn't get anything right. We also teach why we think he got it wrong. Why not teach Creationism too. The fact that so many influential people believe it makes it pertinent to any discussion on the subject of evolution.