Former Piston John Salley says Michael Jordan is not a top 5 player of all-time (poll)

[Sticksboi05]

Michael Jordan is one of the greatest players to ever pay the game. Just not the greatest. The greatest IMO was a guy called Wilt Chamberlain but since a lot of people don't have YouTube clips of the guy, it never happened.

You know what I mean?

Jordan has damn near ruined his legacy with his buffoon-like management of the Charlotte basketball franchise.

It's past embarrassing.

By the way Jordan, huge egomaniac that he is, doesn't even think he was the greatest.

Jordan on being called 'The Greatest': People say I was the greatest ever to play to the game. I cringe a little bit. I receive it as an opinion. But for me personally, I never played against Jerry West. I never played against Elgin Baylor. I never played against Wilt Chamberlain.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2009/09/theres_not_going_to_be_another.html#more

I think he's the greatest but I don't think it's undisputed. There have been a lot of great players in the NBA. My issue with Wilt is again, 100 points is nice and the 50 ppg season but in an era where guys at Rucker Park were better than his competition.

[sly]

that's crazy talk. the nba was watered down immensely when mj was winning titles. 6 expansions in 8 years or something like that.

There were only 2 expansion teams in the mid-90's... Toronto and Vancouver.

I think the NBA today has the greatest talent it has ever seen at 1 time... but MJ's title runs were still filled with a TON of talent. But if you don't believe that being a Hall of Famer is a bench mark for judging talent, then arguing seems kind of moot.

As far as John Salley's opinion goes, it's pretty interesting, but extremely silly. I was and always will be a huge Jordan fan, regardless of how big of a jerk he was to his teammates or opponents. That's kinda why I like the guy.... he's a ****ing assassin. His insane work ethic, inability to accept losing, ability to create or hold grudges beyond reason, combined with incredible athletic talent was just fun to watch... especially in his prime. For us "regular" folk, we'd probably need a therapy with as many sociopathic or narcissistic issues as Jordan had, but for a top athlete, it can create gods of an era, like Ali or Tiger or any of the other all-timers.

Back to the argument. Trying to judge the "greatest of all-time" is nearly impossible. There are plenty of NBA players past and present who are more gifted athletically than MJ. And yea... Jordan had plenty of failures. The guy was far from flawless. But he consistently overcame any challenge that came his way and defeated EVERYONE during his era.

I'll compare how Kobe stacks up to MJ. And I'm a huge Kobe fan, too. He might is be more athletic than Michael. And he had a better jump shot. But what did they both accomplish during their careers? There is 1 clear winner...

Kobe Bryant

NBA Finals Record: 5-2

Finals MVPs: 2

Regular season MVPs: 1

All-Star MVPs: 4

Defensive Player of the Year: 0

Scoring Titles: 2

Career Stat line: 25.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.5 spg

You could make the argument Kobe's averages are lower because he barely played any minutes his first 3 years, but if you do the math, that only affects his points per game by 2pts. So... put him up around 27 ppg. Still lower than MJ. Let's look at Jordan...

Michael Jordan

NBA Finals Record: 6-0

Finals MVPs: 6

Regular season MVPs: 5

All-Star MVPs: 3

Defensive Player of the Year: 1

Scoring Titles: 10

Career Stat line: 30.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.3 spg

If you take ability... plus stats and accomplishments... and dominance of their era, Jordan pretty much comes out ahead every time when compared to anyone that has ever played in the NBA. That is why he is the greatest of all-time (so far).

[Kosher Ham]

The guys at Rucker Park had nothing for Wilt.

It was more than that. The guy at his height had an actual skill set. I love Kareem...But Wilt was a more complete player.

[Bang]

Agreed.

Bill Russell is the Jim Brown of the NBA. Great player, but incredibly overrated because he dominated an incredibly watered down league.

THIS is completely the wrong way to view it

Neither league was watered down. the players in the NBA and NFL at the times of Russell and Brown were the best there was.

The fact they dominated had nothing to do at all with the level of competition, because you're measuring it against modern ideals of what is the best.

the fact they dominated had everything to do with the fact they were dominant athletes, that much better than the best.

I believe if Brown or russell were in their 20s, they could play in the modern leagues, particularly Brown. Some people are just out of a rock of Athletic ability.. and he is one.

hell, Brown might be able to play a game NOW.

~Bang

[Predicto]

THIS is completely the wrong way to view it

Neither league was watered down. the players in the NBA and NFL at the times of Russell and Brown were the best there was.

The fact they dominated had nothing to do at all with the level of competition, because you're measuring it against modern ideals of what is the best.

the fact they dominated had everything to do with the fact they were dominant athletes, that much better than the best.

I believe if Brown or russell were in their 20s, they could play in the modern leagues, particularly Brown. Some people are just out of a rock of Athletic ability.. and he is one.

hell, Brown might be able to play a game NOW.

~Bang

I agree with all of that. I still think Russell gets way too much credit for being the center on a team that had 8 (eight!) other Hall of Famers and stayed together for fifteen years. No way is he the GOAT.

[Going Commando]

Kobe's not even the best Laker of all-time. He's probably #3 (Laker).

I agree with you. I like Magic and Kareem over Kobe. Elgin Baylor and Jerry West have to be in the discussion too. I'd take West over him. West was my #2 SG all time.

[Kosher Ham]

And yet along with him...You have not seen any of them play...

:doh:

[Sticksboi05]

I agree with you. I like Magic and Kareem over Kobe. Elgin Baylor and Jerry West have to be in the discussion too. I'd take West over him. West was my #2 SG all time.

I get that he has 5 rings and that he';s clutch but he's an incredibly one dimensional player. MJ could've played the point if he needed to. In fact in '89 he had a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games when moved to PG and not J-Kidd type either, like 25-10-10. Kobe is a chucker, that's reality. Now, he's a damn good scorer so it works out when you have Shaq and then Pau on your team but no surprise that his teams floundered in between. If he is cold shooting he's irrelevant.

[Going Commando]

Please keep in mind that John Salley did play for the "Bad Boy" Pistons and they hated losing to the Bulls. As a Bulls fan, I remember when they walked off the court after getting eliminated. Should anyone be all that surprised that Salley would sound so crazy.

:helmet:

I bet that's what it is. That and he wants some attention and Cowherd wanted to drum up one of those silly sports talk radio debates to kill time. Honestly, there are worse ways to kill time.

---------- Post added August-17th-2012 at 08:18 PM ----------

I get that he has 5 rings and that he';s clutch but he's an incredibly one dimensional player. MJ could've played the point if he needed to. In fact in '89 he had a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games when moved to PG and not J-Kidd type either, like 25-10-10. Kobe is a chucker, that's reality. Now, he's a damn good scorer so it works out when you have Shaq and then Pau on your team but no surprise that his teams floundered in between. If he is cold shooting he's irrelevant.

Yep. And his off shooting nights have come a lot. Jordan took tough shots all the time too but he made his and didn't have so many off shooting nights. I saw a great argument about this once on some website, let me see if I can dig it up.

[Sticksboi05]

And yet along with him...You have not seen any of them play...

:doh:

We are allowed to have opinions. Get over it.

From what I know/have seen of all three that's the opinion I have. I have watched almost the entire 1986 and 1987 NBA Finals among many other games/series in my free time. Equivalent of watching at the time? Absolutely not and not trying to say so, but as a sports lover I do like to get familiar with players I never got to see live. Your opinion may be more "correct" since you saw all three but that doesn't mean you're the only one who can have one.

[Going Commando]

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/05/kobe-bryant-vs-michael-jordan-comparison-2012/

Career True Precision Rating:

Regular season – Michael Jordan +137.5 TPR vs Kobe Bryant: -1,381.5 TPR

Michael Jordan’s SM/MD is 1,519 precision points higher, which is a mountain of a difference. That’s like comparing the grand canyon to a crack in a sidewalk. This is the easiest way to prove that Kobe Bryant has had way too many off-shooting nights. There is no way someone who has put up the amount of off shooting nights that Kobe has, should be compared to Michael Jordan.

That's an amazingly high discrepancy.

Really you could stop there, but I want you to get a firm grasp of the off shooting nights, on shooting nights, and other areas of the game that these players couldn’t be further apart in. Kobe Bryant IS NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Regular Seasons over 30 points per game:

Michael Jordan: 8

Kobe Bryant: 2

Regular Seasons over 32 points per game:

Michael Jordan: 5

Kobe Bryant: 1

Regular Seasons under 50% shooting:

Kobe Bryant: 16

Michael Jordan: 9

Regular Seasons under 48% shooting:

Kobe Bryant: 16

Michael Jordan: 5

Regular Seasons over 50% shooting:

Kobe Bryant: 0

Michael Jordan: 6

Regular Seasons over 52% shooting:

Kobe Bryant: 0

Michael Jordan: 4

Regular season

Games with under 50% shooting:

Michael Jordan: 489

Kobe Bryant: 721

Regular season

Games with under 48% shooting:

Michael Jordan: 458

Kobe Bryant: 691

Regular season

Games with under 46% shooting:

Michael Jordan: 388

Kobe Bryant: 611

Regular season

Games with under 44% shooting:

Michael Jordan: 296

Kobe Bryant: 517

Regular season

Games with under 42% shooting:

Michael Jordan: 234

Kobe Bryant: 450

Regular season

Games with under 40% shooting:

Michael Jordan: 158

Kobe Bryant: 365

Regular season

Games with under 35% shooting:

Michael Jordan: 88

Kobe Bryant: 221

Regular season

Games with under 30% shooting:

Michael Jordan: 41

Kobe Bryant: 116

Regular season

Games with 60% or better shooting:

Michael “Air” Jordan: 173

Kobe “Bean” Bryant: 133

Regular season

Games with 50% or better shooting:

Michael “Air” Jordan: 556

Kobe “Bean” Bryant: 440

Regular season

Games with 20 shots made on 60% or better shooting:

MJ: 16

Kobe: 3

Regular season

Games with 50 points & less than 10 free throw attempts:

MJ: 3

Kobe: 1

It goes on and on, beyond the fact that Kobe is a chucker with ****ty shooting percentages and efficiency ratings.

Kobe is literally inferior to Jordan in every single meaningful aspect of the game... and it's not even close. Kobe is probably the most overrated player of my lifetime.

[sly]

Kobe is literally inferior to Jordan in every single meaningful aspect of the game... and it's not even close. Kobe is probably the most overrated player of my lifetime.

I think most NBA experts will agree that Kobe has a better range than MJ. Jordan played very close to the basket his first few years. It took him a handful of seasons to even become a 3-pt threat and then perfect that turn around jumper, which was almost unstoppable once he got hot. There are plenty other stats Jordan has over Kobe, but I wouldn't put too much stock into the field goal percentages.

And Kobe definitely isn't overrated. That just ruins your credibility when you throw out statements like that. The dude scored 81 points in a game and 63 in 3 quarters. Then also had a streak of 4 50 point games in a row and a streak of 9 straight 40 point games. He's the greatest scorer the NBA has seen since Wilt and MJ. It's too bad he doesn't have more scoring titles to help his case, though.

[Going Commando]

You win, I'll stop talking about any NBA players that played before I was born.

Kareem's resume so thoroughly destroys Kobe's you don't even have to appeal to anything but the numbers. Kareem is the only other player in the game with a legit case for GOAT IMO. Kobe isn't fit to hold his jock.

---------- Post added August-17th-2012 at 08:45 PM ----------

If you want to get serious....MJ couldn't carry Russell's jock,imo.

Russell basically invented "refuse to lose" and had it not been for getting hurt one post season with a high ankle sprain, he'd have 12 rings instead of 11.

His will to win was greater than Jordan, who had to run off and play baseball in the middle of his NBA career.

Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin.............

Russell played in an era of the NBA with a level of competition that was laughable compared to the 80's and 90's.

He also played with at least 6 other HoFers on his Celtics teams.

He was also nowhere near the offensive player Jordan was. Russell gets his due. He's a great player, one of the five greatest careers all time. He's not better than Jordan nor more accomplished.

Jordan played baseball in part because he got burned out from dominating the league so thoroughly and needed a new challenge.

---------- Post added August-17th-2012 at 09:02 PM ----------

I think most NBA experts will agree that Kobe has a better range than MJ. Jordan played very close to the basket his first few years. It took him a handful of seasons to even become a 3-pt threat and then perfect that turn around jumper, which was almost unstoppable once he got hot. There are plenty other stats Jordan has over Kobe, but I wouldn't put too much stock into the field goal percentages.

And Kobe definitely isn't overrated. That just ruins your credibility when you throw out statements like that. The dude scored 81 points in a game and 63 in 3 quarters. Then also had a streak of 4 50 point games in a row and a streak of 9 straight 40 point games. He's the greatest scorer the NBA has seen since Wilt and MJ. It's too bad he doesn't have more scoring titles to help his case, though.

Ah yes, the 81 point regular season game against the fearsome Raptors. If that's one of the biggest feathers in Kobe's cap, your argument is in trouble.

Kobe is absolutely overrated because he's regularly mentioned as one of the ten greatest players of all time which is absolute horse ploppage.

During the winningest stretch of Kobe's career, he wasn't even the best player on his own team.

Kobe scores a ton of points because he's a selfish chucker that has no qualms about shooting 22 shots a game on 43% shooting. That's terrible by the standards of other historic players. And you better believe he shot his team out of games throughout his career.

Record in games with 30+ shot attempts:

Michael Air Jordan: 72-57 (.558)

Kobe Bean Bryant: 50-67 (.427)

Michael Jordan shot his team to wins, Kobe Bryant shoots his team out of wins.

Oh and on all of those big scoring games, Kobe's level of competition was also inferior to MJ's:

Kobe has only 7 career 50 point games or higher against top 10 rated defenses. Jordan had 22 career 50 point games or higher against top 10 rated NBA defenses. Check this website for more articles pertaining to the differences in eras and the way defenders were/are allowed to operate.

Michael Jordan saved his best performances for the best competition. Kobe Bryant bottom feeds.

Kobe has only one MVP for a reason. He's never led the league in win shares or PER in a single season of his career. Oh and that year he won the MVP? Both LeBron and CP3 actually had better cases for it. Kobe got it for lifetime achievement.

Kobe isn't even the best player of the 2000's. Garnett, Duncan, and Dirk are all much better during that decade than Kobe was. Kobe is not a top ten player All Time.

Kobe is also not the best scorer in NBA history. Kareem, Jordan, and Malone were all better of course. Especially MJ. MJ has 8 more scoring titles than Kobe and what's more, he won the scoring title with 35 PPG the year he won defensive player of the year. Can you imagine what that must have been like? That's never been repeated in the modern era. Not even close, the next closest DPOTY was 27 PPG. That year Jordan was the runaway best player in the game on both ends of the floor.

You say it's too bad Kobe didn't win more scoring titles to help his case as the greatest scorer in NBA history. Isn't that kind of like saying it's too bad he wasn't a better scorer so that he could be considered the best scorer?

Lord knows Kobe has taken enough shots in his career to lead the league in scoring every time. But he's a chucker. He's also already played 128 more games than Jordan did, and he's still got a long way to go before he comes close to matching Jordan's scoring numbers.

Kobe is what Allen Iverson would be if he were 6'6 and got to play with great teammates.

---------- Post added August-17th-2012 at 09:13 PM ----------

I think LeBron might lead the league in scoring once and get a DPOY, but he won't score 35 PPG if he does it. And it'll always be a long shot for that to happen when D12 and KD are healthy.

I think that is actually Jordan's single greatest achievement. Moreso than all of the titles and scoring titles and win shares and clutch moments. I doubt there will ever be another basketball player to dominate the league like that for a season in my lifetime.

---------- Post added August-17th-2012 at 09:37 PM ----------

And not to pile on, but I want to highlight the startling discrepancy in efficiency and win shares between Kobe and MJ.

MJ had 10 season with more than 14 win shares. Kobe has had 2.

Kobe has had 3 seasons with a PER over 26, his best was 28.0. Jordan had 9 seasons with a PER over 26, not including the 18 game sophomore season he got hurt, when he had a 27+ PER. This includes four seasons with a PER over 30, his best the 31.7 PER year in 1987-88, the year he won DPOTY--arguably the greatest season by a perimeter player we are ever likely to see.

MJ led the league in PER an astounding 7 times and led the league in win shares an even more astounding 9 times. Those are accomplishments that we may never see bested. LeBron is likely the only guy with a chance. He's led the league in PER five seasons and win shares in four.

Kobe has never led the league in either. That means in every year of Kobe's career, there was someone who played better than him.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Kobe has played 16 seasons and 1161 regular season games. LeBron has only played 9 seasons and 689 regular season games. And yet he's only 29.1 win shares away from Kobe's career total. That's two pretty good seasons for LeBron. He's going to destroy Kobe's career numbers long before he calls it quits.

[DieselPwr44]

I agree with all of that. I still think Russell gets way too much credit for being the center on a team that had 8 (eight!) other Hall of Famers and stayed together for fifteen years. No way is he the GOAT.

And those 8 other HOFers never won anything until Russell joined the team.

Imagine that............one guy changes the whole culture of a team.

You make it sound like he was Kendrick Perkins on a star studded team............

[Kosher Ham]

As typical with many football threads...wait this is basketball...Stats don't always tell the story.

And I am not saying you guys can't have an opinion Sticks...just that it may be slightly clouded because of the perception after the fact.

For example, many people will tell you that Smith was not the greatest RB of all time...certain stats may say a little different story. If you watched him...he wasn't. He was among the best ever...but not the best. Same goes for Barry Sanders.

[Going Commando]

As typical with many football threads...wait this is basketball...Stats don't always tell the story.

And I am not saying you guys can't have an opinion Sticks...just that it may be slightly clouded because of the perception after the fact.

For example, many people will tell you that Smith was not the greatest RB of all time...certain stats may say a little different story. If you watched him...he wasn't. He was among the best ever...but not the best. Same goes for Barry Sanders.

There's some irony in using Emmitt Smith as an analogy for a defense of Kobe Bryant. Like Smith, Kobe's legacy will be built entirely on volume.

[Kosher Ham]

I am defending Kobe here ? Steve, steve, steve. I said Kobe was the greatest Laker...Not the greatest player that ever played for the Lakers.

Check your stats and get back to me.

Irony...you quoted that. Perhaps you were stuck on that one thing...couldn't see the bigger picture/discussion.

But so you know, West over Kobe is silly. Really silly.

[Going Commando]

I am defending Kobe here ? Steve, steve, steve. I said Kobe was the greatest Laker...Not the greatest player that ever played for the Lakers.

Check your stats and get back to me.

Irony...you quoted that. Perhaps you were stuck on that one thing...couldn't see the bigger picture/discussion.

But so you know, West over Kobe is silly. Really silly.

You also said Kobe was a top five player ever right? That's not defending him?

So are you saying you don't consider Kareem a Laker? At least not in the same way Kobe is? Everyone else remembers him as a Laker. He spent 14 years in LA.

It's close between West and Kobe, not silly. West was a more efficient player and has better career per game scoring numbers. He's also got better playoff numbers than Kobe. West played for 14 years, Kobe 16 so far. Stack up West's 14 seasons against Kobe's 14 best seasons. In 12 of those seasons West had more win shares than Kobe. In one season they tie, and only in one season does Kobe beat him--West's worst (his final season when he was 35 and only played 31 games). So basically, year for year, every year of their respective careers except West's last, Kobe was at least a bit worse than West. Or Kobe benefited from better surrounding talent that garnered more shares of the wins. Take your pick, neither help Kobe's case.

West still beats Kobe in regular season win shares by .2 despite the fact Kobe's played in 229 more regular season games. He's also only 1.6 playoff win shares behind Kobe despite the fact Kobe has already played in 67 more playoff games.

Cards on the table: Kobe is not one of the ten best players in NBA history. Agree or disagree?

[Kosher Ham]

Back to the stats I see. Ask your pops or something...geez.

Kobe is top 5. Did I state Wilt was not ? Check again and get back to me.

And it is (West/Kobe) not close by any margin...Kobe is a better all around player than West was back then. "Better surrounding talent"...that's a little bit of a mistake. I will let you edit that one.

Did you miss the part where I stated..."stats don't always tell the story" ?

Ehhh...You didn't. That was your previous quote. ugh...

[Going Commando]

FWIW, stack Magic Johnson's 13 seasons up against Kobe's 13 best seasons and he beats Kobe in win shares in 12 of them. The lone season he doesn't? They tie at 12.7.

Stack Kareem's 14 seasons with the Lakers against Kobe's best 14 and Kareem beats Kobe in win shares for 8 of those seasons.

[Kosher Ham]

FWIW, stack Magic Johnson's 13 seasons up against Kobe's 13 best seasons and he beats Kobe in win shares in 12 of them. The lone season he doesn't? They tie at 12.7.

Stack Kareem's 14 seasons with the Lakers against Kobe's best 14 and Kareem beats Kobe in win shares for 8 of those seasons.

haha. Thanks Steve. I am done with this thread after that response.

[Renegade7]

My head just exploded seeing some of the stats on here. Studying for Security+ right now, and one of the last chapters going over risk analysis talked about how it is impossible to have you risk analysis based souly on quantitative data. Take with that what you will...

[Going Commando]

Back to the stats I see. Ask your pops or something...geez.

Kobe is top 5. Did I state Wilt was not ? Check again and get back to me.

And it is (West/Kobe) not close by any margin...Kobe is a better all around player than West was back then. "Better surrounding talent"...that's a little bit of a mistake. I will let you edit that one.

Did you miss the part where I stated..."stats don't always tell the story" ?

Ehhh...You didn't. That was your previous quote. ugh...

1.) If you don't trust the numbers here, feel free to explain why the systematic flaw in these statistics. Explain why you think they're inadequate.

Arguments against statistics make sense to me in football since the stats there are limited. But for basketball, I find most of the people who dismiss them don't have a good understanding of them.

2.) Stats like PER and WS are broad, pace adjusted/independent metrics that absolutely tell the story of nearly every great player's career and are essentially our only tools for comparing players across eras. Bad players simply do not get tons of win shares or high PERs playing big minutes for an entire season. All of the top players for career win shares and win shares / 48 are pretty much the run down of the greatest players in history by conventional wisdom. The players who get the most WS or have the highest PER in a season tend to win the MVP and are usually considered the best players that season. For large sample sizes like decade long career totals, they tell the story.

3.) It's not just a random stat category here or there in which Kobe is inferior to Jordan and others. It's a broad range of stats, particularly all of his efficiency stats. Plain and simple, Kobe is an inefficient player by HoF standards. You can watch him for five games and know this to be true. And the stats confirm this.

4.) If you don't accept that Kobe has better surrounding talent then West, then it means West was better. A great player can have win shares stolen from him by playing with other great players. But if you're saying that's not the case...

Sure you don't want to edit that one?

5.) There's a whole lot of non-statistical, anecdotal evidence against Kobe out there. How about the fact Kobe's championship caliber Lakers (years where they were the favorite) getting eliminated from the playoffs twice? One of which was a four game sweep against the Mavs where they lost by 36 in the elimination game. How about the years where Kobe didn't have a dominant big man to play with and either lost in the first round or missed the playoffs entirely?

That kind of stuff works against Kobe too.

---------- Post added August-17th-2012 at 11:29 PM ----------

haha. Thanks Steve. I am done with this thread after that response.

You're done hearing truth?

What is it, you don't understand the stats? Or you just don't feel like addressing them because that would take some actual argumentation and your position is weak?

[Major Harris]

There were only 2 expansion teams in the mid-90's... Toronto and Vancouver.

and there were four from '88-'90. six in 8 years my man.

But if you don't believe that being a Hall of Famer is a bench mark for judging talent, then arguing seems kind of moot.

i may have overstated it, but i was responding to a comment about how loaded the FRIGGIN' DREAM TEAM WAS. it was the dream team, of course it had 11 hof'ers. every decade has at least that many. but the fall off after that was pretty big.

[sly]

Ah yes, the 81 point regular season game against the fearsome Raptors. If that's one of the biggest feathers in Kobe's cap, your argument is in trouble.

81 points in an NBA game is 81 points. He accomplished this feat with mostly jumpers... AND in the context of the game. It was one of the greatest moments in NBA history. The fact that you toss it away like he was playing a bunch of 10 year olds shows you're kind of blinded by some type of weird Kobe Bryant issue. It's similar to arguing with people who think Lebron isn't the best player in the NBA right now... and that think he's "overrated".

And I believe you misunderstood my argument... which is why you kept comparing Kobe's statistics to Jordan. I simply think your statement of Kobe being the "most overrated player in your lifetime" is a bit misguided. MJ is the greatest of all-time... but I also think Kobe can easily be put into top 10 or top 12 of all-time... and certainly right behind Jordan and Wilt for being considered one of the best scorers of all time. You mentioned Kareem and Malone... but who else can you list over Kobe? Iverson? Certainly Lebron and Durant will have an argument if they continue on their career trajectory, but right now if Kobe is the 3rd greatest scorer in NBA history... he still isn't a top 10 player? Top 15? Where do you rank Kobe?

Let's just compare Kobe, Malone, and Kareem for scoring accomplishments:

Kareem

Years played: 20

Total points: 38,387

Career ppg: 24.6

Most ppg in season: 34.8

Scoring titles: 2

50 point games: 8

60 point games: 0

70 point games: 0

80 point games: 0

Malone

Years played: 19

Total points: 36,928

Career ppg: 25.0

Most ppg in season: 31.0

Scoring titles: 0

50 point games: 4

60 point games: 1

70 point games: 0

80 point games: 0

Kobe

Years played: 16

Total points: 29,484

Career ppg: 25.4

Most ppg in season: 35.4

Scoring titles: 2

50 point games: 26

60 point games: 5

70 point games: 0

80 point games: 1

I think you need to read Bill Simmons book of basketball. It's incredibly detailed and breaks down the eras. He didn't have Kobe listed in the top 10 at that point (this was before Kobe won 2 more championships), but had him at 15 or 16.

* Edit: Let's add West and Baylor into the mix as well:

West

Years played: 14

Total points: 25,192

Career ppg: 27.0

Most ppg in season: 31.3

Scoring titles: 1

50 point games: 3

60 point games: 1

70 point games: 0

80 point games: 0

Baylor

Years played: 13

Total points: 23,149

Career ppg: 27.4

Most ppg in season: 38.3

Scoring titles: 0

50 point games: 11

60 point games: 2

70 point games: 1

80 point games: 0

---------- Post added August-18th-2012 at 01:16 AM ----------

and there were four from '88-'90. six in 8 years my man.

Yea, you're right. I just looked up expansion teams during Jordan's title runs.