Who was the best MLB player of the 1990s? (poll)

[skinsmarydu]

Roger Clemons ( 7 Cy Young awards, 5 in the 1990's.)

Greg Maddux ( 4 Cy Youngs in the 1990's)

I vote Maddux or Chipper. Clemens will NEVER make the hall of fame, even with 7 Cy Youngs.( and if we're talking "best", I know Greg Maddux and Chipper Jones will both be there.)

Maddux also had a 19-2 season...I still get goosebumps and don't think I've been the same since.

[grhqofb5]

that was actually pre-HGH Bonds

McGwire was hopped up tho

I don't know if bonds even participated in that derby. I was talking about McGwire's performance.

[Sticksboi05]

Well I understand if people think Bonds cheated before 99 because there is no way he wasn't the best player in the game form 1990 to 1998. That includes Griffey.

[Going Commando]

So does everyone think Bonds cheated before 1999?

I think he cheated in 98 at least. I think he could have been using before then too. It could be a situation where he had used before 1998, but drastically changed the way he was using at that point (using different PEDs and more of them to get huge). McGwire was using back in 89-90. A lot of these guys were cheating throughout the 90's, long before the great homerun race at the end of the decade.

[endzone_dave]

One thing I'll always remember about Bonds was how much he choked in the playoffs. He did fine in 2002 but by then his head was the size of a watermellon. Before that, you could always count on a post-season choke from him.

[Hitman21ST]

Are we forgetting the lone player who played in every game during the 90s? Cal Ripken Jr.

---------- Post added August-8th-2012 at 08:54 PM ----------

Are we forgetting the lone player who played in every game during the 90s? Cal Ripken Jr.

[Going Commando]

Good list. I'd go with Alomar over Biggio, Ripken over Larkin, Juan Gonzales over Walker (don't really buy his Coors field stats), But these are all pretty close. Are we leaving out the steriod guys? If so, maybe Juan is gone. Argument could also be made for A-Rod at short, even though he only played from 1994-1999 (and didn't really play full time unitl 1996).

I left out the known steroid users like McGwire, Palmeiro, and Bonds.

- I could see Alomar over Biggio. It's close between them. But I like Biggio's upside at the plate a bit more, but I was tempted to take Alomar myself.

- Walker was kind of the least deserving on the list IMO, but remember, he was good with the Expos too. He could mash.

Once you start taking away the known steroids guys, it actually became kind of hard to find a second corner outfielder who separated himself from the pack. The Yankees look shady. I don't believe for a minute Sosa wasn't juicing. Bonds was.

- Rickey Henderson was still good at the very beginning of the decade but his career was really all about the 80's.

- What about Tony Gwynn?

- Or what about moving Griffey to one of the corners and taking Kenny Lofton to play CF?

- I wouldn't take Ripken over Larkin though. Like Rickey Henderson, I consider Ripken more of an 80's player. Ripken peaked in 1991 and never came close to matching that season's production again. Larkin was stronger throughout the 90's, 51.9 WAR to Ripken's 45.9. That's about a pretty good season's worth of difference.

He was unbelievably good. I put him right on par with clemens and maddux.

Agreed. But like Pedro, he really came into his own at the end of the decade and into the 2000's. Maddux was the man throughout the whole decade. Clemens was great in the 80's, but seems like he cheated his way through the 90's.

[Predicto]

Steve - plenty of those guys on your list were juicing too, even though they are not "proven" users. Don't kid yourself.

[Going Commando]

Steve - plenty of those guys on your list were juicing too, even though they are not "proven" users. Don't kid yourself.

I saw you posted that earlier. You don't have credible indication guys like Bagwell, Biggio, Martinez, Belle, etc. were juicing. If those guys are getting called out for using steroids, it's the "Great Player from the 90's" reasoning, not anything really solid. Anyone who hit more than 20 dingers more than once in the 90's must have used steroids. Excluding Frank Thomas.

None of those guys hit 70 HRs nor suddenly reinvented themselves as power players in their late 30's and started racking up MVPs and Cy Youngs.

What you're saying is the same BS justification that's keeping Bagwell and Biggio out of the Hall. It their case, it's not even hearsay, it's simply pure speculation from some sports writer.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

I dont think Craig Biggio is eligible for the HOF yet

Bagwell only became eligible this year.

and look at Bagwell's body in his Red Sox years, and then look at when he became an Astro. Then look at Bagwell after they started steroid testing. IM convinced he was on something, same is true for Pudge Rodriguez who also deflated.

---------- Post added August-9th-2012 at 08:41 AM ----------

and just because someone doesnt hit 70 HRs doesnt mean they were not some PED.

Palmeiro didnt.

[Sticksboi05]

Griggey wasn't roiding. He naturally improved, and when injuries began, he naturally regressed in Cicinatti. He never magically recovered from injury and hit 50 HRs. Even after he moved to Cincy his stats dropped in 2000 though still great.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Bonds wasnt using any performance enhancers either for most the decade.

[Mufumonk]

Heh... didn't know that about Piazza. Did you know someone on the team or something or a clubhouse employee or something? He looked more like Rafael Palmeiro than Mark McGwire.

I knew a couple of people in the Dodgers organization. I think Codeorama's brother was in their farm system as well. You'll hear the same thing from people that came up with him, he didn't bother trying to hide the needle tracks in his back.

I think he cheated in 98 at least. I think he could have been using before then too. It could be a situation where he had used before 1998, but drastically changed the way he was using at that point (using different PEDs and more of them to get huge).

His body makeup started to change between the fall of '96 and the spring of '97. You can see it in his shoulders/neck.

Griggey wasn't roiding. He naturally improved, and when injuries began, he naturally regressed in Cicinatti. He never magically recovered from injury and hit 50 HRs. Even after he moved to Cincy his stats dropped in 2000 though still great.

Exactly. Griffey's body did exactly what it was supposed to do as he aged........it broke down. He was never a gym rat, instead focusing on flexibility.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Steve - plenty of those guys on your list were juicing too, even though they are not "proven" users. Don't kid yourself.

Who?

Are you just such a big Bonds fan that you are accusing everyone else of having done it too? I don't get where you're coming from on this one, P.

[grhqofb5]

A guy that no one will ever mention, but might be in the running for best AL third baseman of the 90s, is Dean Palmer. Take a look at his stats. If you believe Martinez is a 3B and not a DH, then yeah, he's better. But Palmer was primarily a 3B.

[Going Commando]

A guy that no one will ever mention, but might be in the running for best AL third baseman of the 90s, is Dean Palmer. Take a look at his stats. If you believe Martinez is a 3B and not a DH, then yeah, he's better. But Palmer was primarily a 3B.

Martinez was a DH. But I had to put him in at 3rd because I already had Frank Thomas at DH. Thomas at DH was the only way I could put both him and Bagwell on it.

[Predicto]

I saw you posted that earlier. You don't have credible indication guys like Bagwell, Biggio, Martinez, Belle, etc. were juicing. If those guys are getting called out for using steroids, it's the "Great Player from the 90's" reasoning, not anything really solid. Anyone who hit more than 20 dingers more than once in the 90's must have used steroids. Excluding Frank Thomas.

None of those guys hit 70 HRs nor suddenly reinvented themselves as power players in their late 30's and started racking up MVPs and Cy Youngs.

What you're saying is the same BS justification that's keeping Bagwell and Biggio out of the Hall. It their case, it's not even hearsay, it's simply pure speculation from some sports writer.

I guess it all depends on what you believe to be "credible indication." Like I said, except in rare cases there is no way we will ever be able to prove in a court of law something that may or may not have happened 20 years ago. I'm going with what I read and what I consider most likely. Steroids were rampant in baseball, baseball deliberately didn't test for them, and your career success probability was greatly enhanced by using them. I'm not going to pretend that my idol didn't do something just because I like them, expecially if there are specific rumors flying around about them, and if their career path seems particularly unusual.

I also firmly believe that OJ Simpson killed Nicole, even though he was flat out acquitted in a court of law. I'm funny that way.

[Going Commando]

I dont think Craig Biggio is eligible for the HOF yet

Bagwell only became eligible this year.

and look at Bagwell's body in his Red Sox years, and then look at when he became an Astro. Then look at Bagwell after they started steroid testing. IM convinced he was on something, same is true for Pudge Rodriguez who also deflated.

My bad, Biggio isn't eligible until this year. But this is Bagwell's third year on the ballot and he should be in IMO. I don't really trust the eyeball test when there is no other evidence. Too speculative. You realize Bagwell was only a 20 year old minor leaguer with the Red Sox. Compare my body at age 20 to what it is today and it's a 40 pound transformation and I never really weight trained. Guys fill out and then in their 30s their bodies decline. It's when they start filling out and putting up their peak numbers in their mid to late 30s that you should start wondering. Bagwell was a consistent slugger throughout the era.

[Predicto]

Who?

Are you just such a big Bonds fan that you are accusing everyone else of having done it too? I don't get where you're coming from on this one, P.

I already did it in detail with Piazza, and it apparently wasn't good enough. Not going to bother to do the google searches for each player, just to have the results dismissed as inconclusive. Anyone who wants to do it can look up each of those players and find specific rumors and reasoned speculation about them all.

Where I'm coming from is simple: Baseball had a steroid era, I believe that most sluggers and pitchers used them, Canseco was telling the truth about how widespread it was, and I'm not happy about it. But I'm also not going to close my eyes to it and pretend that I know that my particular favorite baseball player must have been clean just because I like them. I'm just going to accept that they were probably doing it and accept that it was part of the game, and move on. I would vote Bagwell into the HoF, and Biggio, and pretty much everyone else on that list.

I'm not convicting anyone in a court of law - I'm just having my own opinion, and it is my opinion that there are too many rumors and there was too much incentive to do it back then and there is too much incentive to lie about it now to trust their claims of innocence. After watching so many "stand up " guys like Lance Armstrong and Raffy Palmiero on their honor declare that they were totally clean and that it was an insult to suggest otherwise - and then learn that they were lying - I have become inured to such things. So I'm accepting it and moving on.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Well 33-34 year old men don't lose 20-25 lbs in an offseason when they are known as a power hitter either like Bagwell did

And that weight is lost after testing for steroids was implemented

[Going Commando]

I guess it all depends on what you believe to be "credible indication." Like I said, except in rare cases there is no way we will ever be able to prove in a court of law something that may or may not have happened 20 years ago. I'm going with what I read and what I consider most likely. Steroids were rampant in baseball, baseball deliberately didn't test for them, and your career success probability was greatly enhanced by using them. I'm not going to pretend that my idol didn't do something just because I like them, expecially if there are specific rumors flying around about them, and if their career path seems particularly unusual.

I also firmly believe that OJ Simpson killed Nicole, even though he was flat out acquitted in a court of law. I'm funny that way.

It's one thing to accept Bonds used steroids. It's another to accept every other great player from the 90's did too. With Bonds it was obvious. Steroids allowed him to rewrite the record books after the age of 35. There is nowhere near that level of conclusivity with guys like Bagwell, Martinez, Biggio, etc.

[JMS]

I vote Maddux or Chipper. Clemens will NEVER make the hall of fame, even with 7 Cy Youngs.( and if we're talking "best", I know Greg Maddux and Chipper Jones will both be there.)

Maddux also had a 19-2 season...I still get goosebumps and don't think I've been the same since.

Maddux had 2 20 win seasons in his career. both in the 1990's, Clemens had 6; 3 in the 1990's.

If he had lost his perjury trial I would agree with you. But after two bites at the apple by 2 teams of motivated federal prosecutors, without a conviction; I disagree, I think Clemens will get into the hall, just because there is no creditable evidence against him.

He pronounced his innocents, backed it up in court, why shouldn't he get in?

[Predicto]

It's one thing to accept Bonds used steroids. It's another to accept every other great player from the 90's did too. With Bonds it was obvious. Steroids allowed him to rewrite the record books after the age of 35. There is nowhere near that level of conclusivity with guys like Bagwell, Martinez, Biggio, etc.

There is no way to be conclusive. Baseball deliberately did not test for steroids. Players have a huge incentive to lie about it.

If you want to believe that only a rare few guys were using steroids, then you go that route. I don't believe that. Bonds used. McGwire used. Sosa used. Palmiero used. Sheffield. Joyner. Giambi (both of them). Segui. Rocker. Canseco (both of them). Juan Gonzalez. Roger Clemens. A-Rod. Manny. Piazza. On and on and on. Minor guys like Armando Rios or FP Santangelo. There is too much there. It was endemic.

According to some, Kelly Blair apparently told people he was delivering steroids to Bagwell. There are tons of rumors about him. Bagwell certainly deflated like a balloon as soon as they started steroid testing.

Bottom line - I think Bagwell took steroids and I also want to put him in the Hall of Fame because he performed like a Hall of Famer in a tainted era.

---------- Post added August-9th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------

Maddux had 2 20 win seasons in his career. both in the 1990's, Clemens had 6; 3 in the 1990's.

If he had lost his perjury trial I would agree with you. But after two bites at the apple by 2 teams of motivated federal prosecutors, without a conviction; I disagree, I think Clemens will get into the hall, just because there is no creditable evidence against him.

He pronounced his innocents, backed it up in court, why shouldn't he get in?

There is a huge difference between lack of conviction in a federal perjury trial based on the "beyond a reasonable doubt" criminal standard and a "lack of credible evidence."

I am all but certain that Clemens used steroids - and I am absolutely certain he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

[JMS]

There is a huge difference between lack of conviction in a federal perjury trial based on the "beyond a reasonable doubt" criminal standard and a "lack of credible evidence."

The reason I say the only evidence against Clemons was not creditable, is because that's what the federal judge said after a jury unanimously found him innocent of all charges of all seven charges .

I am all but certain that Clemens used steroids - and I am absolutely certain he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

If Clemens used steroids I don't think he should get in, and I think his records should be purged. Dude was looking at 30 years in prison if found guilty and was offered a deal which would have let him walk if he confessed. He turned it down and was found not guilty of seven charges... How can anybody fault him?

During the trial, prosecutors sought to bolster the credibility of McNamee, who admitted to lying or stretching the truth on numerous occasions. They presented physical evidence that McNamee claimed to have collected during his injections of ballplayers. Prosecutors said that McNamee gave them a needle that had traces of Clemens’s DNA and of steroid residue, as well as two cotton balls that contained Clemens’s DNA. The needle and cotton balls were stored in a FedEx box with other medical waste that the strength coach claimed were used on ballplayers, prosecutors said.

Prosecutors also called Andy Pettitte, a teammate and close friend of Clemens’s, to testify. Pettitte told jurors that Clemens confided in him in 1999 or 2000 that he had taken human growth hormone to help him recover from workouts. But on cross-examination, Pettitte agreed with a defense attorney that there was a “50-50” chance he had misheard or misunderstood Clemens.

Fay Vincent, a former baseball commissioner, said he did not think that the verdict “will have a great effect on his Hall of Fame chances. It clearly improves them somewhat, but I think the American public and the writers — we saw him testify, and he wasn’t very believable” during his congressional testimony.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I already did it in detail with Piazza, and it apparently wasn't good enough. Not going to bother to do the google searches for each player, just to have the results dismissed as inconclusive. Anyone who wants to do it can look up each of those players and find specific rumors and reasoned speculation about them all.

Where I'm coming from is simple: Baseball had a steroid era, I believe that most sluggers and pitchers used them, Canseco was telling the truth about how widespread it was, and I'm not happy about it. But I'm also not going to close my eyes to it and pretend that I know that my particular favorite baseball player must have been clean just because I like them. I'm just going to accept that they were probably doing it and accept that it was part of the game, and move on. I would vote Bagwell into the HoF, and Biggio, and pretty much everyone else on that list.

I'm not convicting anyone in a court of law - I'm just having my own opinion, and it is my opinion that there are too many rumors and there was too much incentive to do it back then and there is too much incentive to lie about it now to trust their claims of innocence. After watching so many "stand up " guys like Lance Armstrong and Raffy Palmiero on their honor declare that they were totally clean and that it was an insult to suggest otherwise - and then learn that they were lying - I have become inured to such things. So I'm accepting it and moving on.

I get it. I read Canseco's book and gotta say that he was pretty accurate so far. I basically believe him.

I do think he said that Roger Clemens did NOT use. Which may or may not be true, but Canseco has credibility on this issue.

My personal problem with your perspective on this is treating every player from the era in the same way. Certainly, we don't know of every person who used. But just because a player was good in the 90's-2000's doesn't mean he used steroids. And one guy saying someone used, or someone had acne is also very weak. Some players have had significant evidence pile up against them, and its fair to question some of them or even speculate they are users based on some of the circumstantial evidence. Its not, in my opinion, fair to treat every player from that era as a user. Its also not fair to assume every player who has ever been accused by any jonny-come-lately was a user.

So, I look at the totality of the circumstances. And I don't claim to KNOW who did and did not use, just to have a hunch.

---------- Post added August-9th-2012 at 03:15 PM ----------

Maddux had 2 20 win seasons in his career. both in the 1990's, Clemens had 6; 3 in the 1990's.

If he had lost his perjury trial I would agree with you. But after two bites at the apple by 2 teams of motivated federal prosecutors, without a conviction; I disagree, I think Clemens will get into the hall, just because there is no creditable evidence against him.

He pronounced his innocents, backed it up in court, why shouldn't he get in?

I have to say, I have come around on Clemens. I absolutely hate Clemens, but the evidence against him is very weak. Really, really weak. If Clemens hasn't cleared his name now, I don't know how any non-user who is accused of using could possibly do so. I think until more comes out, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.