alexey Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Atheism is a statement about belief while agnosticism is a statement about knowledge. There are 2 possible situations: "God exists" and "God does not exist". Truth is limited to those 2 options. Belief is NOT limited to those two options. Agnostic Atheist says that we do not have enough information, and rejects both claims. Common approach is to assume that one must choose between these two positions. By rejecting one position, a person supposedly automatically selects the other. This is incorrect. You can reject BOTH positions (atheism), because there is insufficient evidence for either (agnostic). Default position is non-belief. Default position is to reject ALL claims. Atheism is the default position. This is well explained by several excellent videos in a program called the Atheist Experience produced by the Atheist Community of Austin, here is an example: As a side note: atheism has no dogma, no belief system, no certainty, no faith, no creed, and it is really not an ism. It is a rejection of a claim that some God exists. If I say that I am an atheist, I am not telling you what I do believe - I am telling you what I do NOT believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I am an atheist. I don't believe it, no way, no how. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 I am an atheist. I don't believe it, no way, no how.~Bang Me neither, and I really wish people would stop assuming that I have to automatically believe the opposite of things that I do not believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I am an atheist. I don't believe it, no way, no how.~Bang I don't believe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I don't believe you. So long as you believe IN me, I'm ok. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Me neither, and I really wish people would stop assuming that I have to automatically believe the opposite of things that I do not believe. The point is valid. But certainly not popular, or will be even accepted as a legitimate framing by many. And related common forms of reactivity on these matters are unlikely to change any time soon. I keep meaning to write sometime about how the "God/no God" or "atheist/agnostic/believer" discussion, which for many participants may be more properly be framed as the "Acceptance of the Christian construct of God and that religion" v. "Not', and then to what degree is the "not" (which is a central theme to the current "Bible verse" thread). ---------- Post added August-4th-2012 at 10:18 AM ---------- So long as you believe IN me, I'm ok.~Bang I have faith in you. ES-wise. (see how I am?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I am tangible. ES-wise. ~Boo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I consider myself more of an apathetic agnostic. To be completely honest, I kind of have a belief in something that I consider to be a much higher truth than any of us know or can think of. I've had the added benefit of living overseas where Christianity wasn't the dominant religion and of course most of my life here in the US. I simply don't agree with the answers given given by various religions on some valid and highly important questions. Just as an example, this was posted in the Questions for Christians thread. I'm not singling out AsburySkinsFan nor is this a callout but: I apologize, I decided to watch the Olympics and then go to bed. Genetic abnormalities are understood by many Christians as a result of the corruption of sin which has affected every aspect of life. As someone specializing as a geneticist, to me that sounds completely absurd and something not grounded in any kind of substance at all. And I've received similar and completely unsatisfactory answers from other religious beliefs as well. Ex: I posed this same question to a friend of my Dad's who is a Hindu preist and his response to me was that the current state of a person (say a genetic defect at birth) was likely caused because of sins in past life (reincarnation). Now this is only a small example, but I hope it conveys my point. In general, when people ask me about my religious belief, my answer is: Don't know, don't care. I agree that often gets mistaken as "I Don't believe a God (or a higher power) exists". And it can be frustrating trying to explain something that in theory isn't all that complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Atheism is the assertion that there is no god and therefore, unless they assert and can prove 100% PERSONAL knowledge of the universe, is an assertion of belief. This is what a belief system is: it is any statement upon which you rely that cannot be proven. Only the agnostic who makes no assertion about the existence or non-existence of god can claim no belief system. You can claim yourself as an agnostic with a very low p-value for god but unless you believe in that god does not exist, you are not an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 Atheism is the assertion that there is no god and therefore, unless they assert and can prove 100% PERSONAL knowledge of the universe, is an assertion of belief. This is what a belief system is: it is any statement upon which you rely that cannot be proven. Only the agnostic who makes no assertion about the existence or non-existence of god can claim no belief system. You can claim yourself as an agnostic with a very low p-value for god but unless you believe in that god does not exist, you are not an atheist. What is the right term to call people who do not believe that God exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Depends on whether or not they believe god exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 Depends on whether or not they believe god exists. 1) I do not believe that God exists. 2) I believe that God does not exist. These are very different statements, but both indicate atheism. On top of atheism, statement 2) also adds an affirmative belief. You seem to suggest that only statement 2) is atheism while statement 1) is not atheism. What do you base this on? Linguistically, prefix A means absence of something. It does not mean affirmation of the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 1) I do not believe that God exists.2) I believe that God does not exist. These are very different statements, but both indicate atheism. On top of atheism, statement 2) also adds an affirmative belief. You seem to suggest that only statement 2) is atheism while statement 1) is not atheism. What do you base this on? Linguistically, prefix A means absence of something. It does not mean affirmation of the opposite. That the two statements are not linguistically different. Why do you think that? And why did you not answer my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 there is no higher purpose other than what we give ourselves as a species. there is no after this. There is no reason. there is no grand scheme. It just is, and we are. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 That the two statements are not linguistically different. Why do you think that? And why did you not answer my question? One statement says I have no belief and another says that I do. They are not equivalent and both are atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 One statement says I have no belief and another says that I do. They are not equivalent and both are atheist. Again, why are you not answering my question? In any case, since you have chosen to abandon reason here, there really is no point in continuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 does a species give itself purpose or is it inherent in them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 does a species give itself purpose or is it inherent in them? Since we're the only ones who seem to have more than a sex, territory, and feed drive, i'd say we give it to ourselves. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Since we're the only ones who seem to have more than a sex, territory, and feed drive, i'd say we give it to ourselves.~Bang wouldn't that indicate a inherent nature of it specific to our species? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I used to believe in Bang Watched all the videos, read all of his writings. but then his visits were less and it seemed his attention was dissipating. I've started looking towards math and space since about 2008 (The vacant years). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 wouldn't that indicate a inherent nature of it specific to our species? Considering our species is the only one demonstrably capable of reason, I'd say that the nature of it is inherent with intellect. I think with intellect comes a desire to know more, and to learn what is not known. Even theologians don't stop at "i believe it, and that's all".. they research it, continually seek more answers regarding their faith. I think this is shown in animals.. higher intellect animals like chimps and dolphins are curious, problem solvers. Other animals may be interested in things they don't understand, but it's from a more primal sense. (Can i eat it? Will it eat me? ) Once the lowr animals determine either of those, they generally act accordingly, or lose interest if it can do neither. Some animals will play with things, but play among most animals is to mimic hunting or other survival skills. And some animals are just a trip that blow it all away, like ravens and crows. Smart little F-ers. They learn. ---------- Post added August-4th-2012 at 08:15 PM ---------- I used to believe in BangWatched all the videos, read all of his writings. but then his visits were less and it seemed his attention was dissipating. I've started looking towards math and space since about 2008 (The vacant years). peace be with you. And i say yay, there shall be more cartoons this year. Can't promise the podcast though. we'll see. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I consider myself more of an apathetic agnostic. To be completely honest, I kind of have a belief in something that I consider to be a much higher truth than any of us know or can think of.I've had the added benefit of living overseas where Christianity wasn't the dominant religion and of course most of my life here in the US. I simply don't agree with the answers given given by various religions on some valid and highly important questions... In general, when people ask me about my religious belief, my answer is: Don't know, don't care. I agree that often gets mistaken as "I Don't believe a God (or a higher power) exists". And it can be frustrating trying to explain something that in theory isn't all that complicated. This is pretty close to where I landed on the "trying to figure out how an allegedly benevolent God can exist" merry go round. Ultimately I concluded that he either doesn't exist or is incredibly incompetent and/or lacking in compassion. If it's the former my belief is irrelevant and if it's the latter, eff him. Why would I want anything to do with a "God" like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 Again, why are you not answering my question? In any case, since you have chosen to abandon reason here, there really is no point in continuing. What difference does my answer make? My answer is yes. Now what? My answer is no. Now what? Dictionary has these two definition for the word "atheism": http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism a·the·ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm] noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God. 2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. Do you understand the difference between these two definitions? You wrote that atheism is only the first one, claimed that they are the same, and proceeded to accuse me of abandoning reason. Anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 What difference does my answer make? My answer is yes. Now what? My answer is no. Now what? sounds like predestination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 sounds like predestination Dont get me started on that. I've been itching to start a thread on free will for a while now... But I didn't start a thread on free will, even though I could have. Or maybe I couldn't have started one. How would I know either way? Were you predetermined to bring this up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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