49ers Game Is Our First "Big Game" of 2011

[Brotherz]

I like the sentiment overall but I am curious about something you said Kleese - What makes you think our guys have pride? Take out Fletcher. He deinfitely does. The biggest dissappointment from my perspective isn't the record its the fight. They looked so ridiculously flat the last two weeks its really hard for me to feel they are fighting. Miami fought last week against the Giants. I have no doubt about it. Losing is awful. I hate it. But like you I expected it and accepted it this year. But to see them be embarrassingly lifeless each and every week is very bothersome to me. I wanted to see improvement. I wanted to lose tough, hard-fought games. I wanted to see the defense take shape and accept that the offense while improving on the o-line, rb and wr positions would lag behind without the franchise QB. But honestly, I don't see it. The offense seems worse in many respects. The receivers look God awful. The line is still a joke. The RB's aren't threatening at all. The defense can't get off the field. Doesn't get enough turnovers and they repeatedly get driven on. They look lost. No fight. No pride. I WANT to believe they have pride but I don't see it. How do you?

[Diss]

I like the sentiment overall but I am curious about something you said Kleese - What makes you think our guys have pride? Take out Fletcher. He deinfitely does. The biggest dissappointment from my perspective isn't the record its the fight. They looked so ridiculously flat the last two weeks its really hard for me to feel they are fighting. Miami fought last week against the Giants. I have no doubt about it. Losing is awful. I hate it. But like you I expected it and accepted it this year. But to see them be embarrassingly lifeless each and every week is very bothersome to me. I wanted to see improvement. I wanted to lose tough, hard-fought games. I wanted to see the defense take shape and accept that the offense while improving on the o-line, rb and wr positions would lag behind without the franchise QB. But honestly, I don't see it. The offense seems worse in many respects. The receivers look God awful. The line is still a joke. The RB's aren't threatening at all. The defense can't get off the field. Doesn't get enough turnovers and they repeatedly get driven on. They look lost. No fight. No pride. I WANT to believe they have pride but I don't see it. How do you?

This is my biggest issue, too.

At first, you can say, "Well, it's hard to have pride when you don't know what you're doing, you're not comfortable with the guys around you, and you don't have confidence." That to me sums up the offensive side of things. On defense, you could make the excuse that the defense is just on the field too much, that the terrible offensive play eventually deflates them, and that makes sense.

HOWEVER, the flaw in that is that guys are on record saying that they came out "FLAT" on defense for the Philly game. THAT is totally unacceptable. That was when the team was still relatively injury-free, and what a huge opportunity that was. To come out flat there is, well, disheartening, and that comes right back to coaching, I'm afraid. I've also heard reports of guys on the plane back to D.C. this last week, after that humiliation, laughing and joking and having a good time on the flight. I don't get it. Something definitely stinks.

I think that's what a lot of people miss when they ask for "patience" and say you can't expect miracles overnight.

No one I know expects miracles. Just a team that plays with heart and pride, a team we can be proud of as fans.

I always go back to that 2004 team. That was as proud as I've ever been about a 6-10 team, because they made opponents earn just about everything, they made the other guy realize he was in for a fight, win or lose, and they were heading in the right direction.

[sportjunkie07]

imo, the first "big game" was the eagles game, as i said before we played them. that was the game that would dictate if we would rise to the occasion as we have not been able to do in the past. we did not, because we are not that type of team yet.

*and it goes without saying that the next game is always your "biggest game"

[kleese]

I'm sorry, but big games have already happened.

The Eagles game would have gotten a 2nd win in the Division, pretty much put the Eagles away (they would have been 2-5 right now, only 2 more losses probably allowed for them to get into the playoffs), and would have the Redskins in a head to head battle with the Giants up top.

The wonders this could have done for the team mentally. But instead, Grossman played bad, and now the QB who is the WORST starter in the NFL by far (IMHO) is playing, Grossman who gives the team a chance is on the bench.

That game was the biggest, they lost, now I will be lucky for a 5 win season.

.

Winning this game will only give false hope to people, San Fran is a good team, and may embarrass the Skins at home.

My goal before the year and now was to go 7-9 this year... Not sure how winning on Sunday would overly inflate my hopes

---------- Post added November-3rd-2011 at 02:23 PM ----------

I like the sentiment overall but I am curious about something you said Kleese - What makes you think our guys have pride? Take out Fletcher. He deinfitely does. The biggest dissappointment from my perspective isn't the record its the fight. They looked so ridiculously flat the last two weeks its really hard for me to feel they are fighting. Miami fought last week against the Giants. I have no doubt about it. Losing is awful. I hate it. But like you I expected it and accepted it this year. But to see them be embarrassingly lifeless each and every week is very bothersome to me. I wanted to see improvement. I wanted to lose tough, hard-fought games. I wanted to see the defense take shape and accept that the offense while improving on the o-line, rb and wr positions would lag behind without the franchise QB. But honestly, I don't see it. The offense seems worse in many respects. The receivers look God awful. The line is still a joke. The RB's aren't threatening at all. The defense can't get off the field. Doesn't get enough turnovers and they repeatedly get driven on. They look lost. No fight. No pride. I WANT to believe they have pride but I don't see it. How do you?

Why do you say London has pride? Because he pounds his fists and looks mad? Very hard for fans to judge the effort level of the team....

As a matter of fact one of the reasons we got run over by Carolina was because London had a very poor game... Out of position on several runs up the gut and had a hard time keepin up in space. I did think he was one of the few that played well in Buffalo though.

The Bills game was the only game this year where I thought there was a lack of energy.... But that stems more from lack of confidence than lack of caring.

There have been a few times in my lifetime when I thought the Redskins quit and/or didn't care.... The end of the 2000 season comes to mind as does the last half of the Spurrier and Zorn eras.... But I are absolutely no evidence of that yet.

---------- Post added November-3rd-2011 at 02:26 PM ----------

This is my biggest issue, too.

At first, you can say, "Well, it's hard to have pride when you don't know what you're doing, you're not comfortable with the guys around you, and you don't have confidence." That to me sums up the offensive side of things. On defense, you could make the excuse that the defense is just on the field too much, that the terrible offensive play eventually deflates them, and that makes sense.

HOWEVER, the flaw in that is that guys are on record saying that they came out "FLAT" on defense for the Philly game. THAT is totally unacceptable. That was when the team was still relatively injury-free, and what a huge opportunity that was. To come out flat there is, well, disheartening, and that comes right back to coaching, I'm afraid. I've also heard reports of guys on the plane back to D.C. this last week, after that humiliation, laughing and joking and having a good time on the flight. I don't get it. Something definitely stinks.

I think that's what a lot of people miss when they ask for "patience" and say you can't expect miracles overnight.

No one I know expects miracles. Just a team that plays with heart and pride, a team we can be proud of as fans.

I always go back to that 2004 team. That was as proud as I've ever been about a 6-10 team, because they made opponents earn just about everything, they made the other guy realize he was in for a fight, win or lose, and they were heading in the right direction.

Players always blame bad outings on being flat or needing more intensity, etc.

Generally speaking a guy isn't going to come out say "we lost because I'm too slow and can't cover that guy" or "we lost because I got

Manhandled in the trenches." almost 100% of the time players blame losses on beating themselves.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I like the idea of this thread. My expectations were tempered despite the 3-1 start. In hindsight, I think Shanny's biggest mistake was to not give Rex one more game. It seemed like a desperate move to me, in the same realm of Denver's Tebow situation. There is a difference in "providing a spark" and being the man that the other team preps all week for.

I also think this is a big reason that we have come out flat. Behind closed doors, I think the team feels like their chances for a playoff run were dashed as soon as Beck got the nod.

This is a big game for the mindset of the players and the fans. I agree that changing the culture is the most difficult part of the transition. If we get drummed, there's more negative press, etc. which is never a good thing. Heck, just look at what the last two games have done to the diehards on this board. It's always sad to watch us eat our own.

I'm still more than happy with our draft/free agent pickups, and I am prepared to go down with the ship this year if it goes that way. I think the biggest reason our D has looked less than stellar is more of a result of snaps played than anything else. It reminds me of the year Blache led the league in 3 and outs, but we would tire out late and give it up in the 4th. When our D isn't gassed, I think they are legit.

In true homer fashion, I think the Redskins come out and make a statement this Sunday. Trent plays, Hank grabs his first TD, and Shanny gives the quick handshake to Harbaugh.

Suck it Niners.

[Burgold]

No, our first big game was the Eagles. A chance to claim first place in the division, kill the playoff hopes of a rival and being healthy and coming off a bye. That was our big game and we laid an egg. We haven't recovered from it since.

[superozman]

My goal before the year and now was to go 7-9 this year... Not sure how winning on Sunday would overly inflate my hopes

---------- Post added November-3rd-2011 at 02:23 PM ----------

I meant that for the overall fan base. But certainly that philly game is the one in my opinion...although i really hate "this is a must win" this "is a big game" cliches for NFL. EACH GAME IS JUST as big as the other, unless its' needed for a playoff berth or Home field down the line.

[Destino]

No, our first big game was the Eagles. A chance to claim first place in the division, kill the playoff hopes of a rival and being healthy and coming off a bye. That was our big game and we laid an egg. We haven't recovered from it since.

I think our big games came at Dallas and at home against the Eagles. Kleese has a gamblers view of football that I think is lost on fans and players because it ignores the emotional significance of games in favor of factors with superior predictive value. The players and the fans don't give a damn if the match ups favor them against the cowboys and the eagles, they want to rise up and defeat the teams in their division and prove they have what it takes.

Going into the Dallas game I think this team wanted to know if it had what it took to go into a town that spells doom for the Redskins and come out smiling. We were riding high on a fast start and the offense sputtered. We were able to bounce back against the Rams but the team looked less than 100% motivated. Then came the damn Eagles. We hadn't lost a game at home and were looking pretty damn good... the Eagles were looking like a team buried by mistakes needing to rebound. Here was the chance to kick them down the stairs and show the world the Redskins were for real.

Instead, the wheels fell off.

The QB had an absolute meltdown that critics were waiting for and both units got handled fairly easily by their division foes. The final insult wasn't even the fact that Rex was benched... it was that the Eagles were able to ice the game by gaining first downs when we needed the ball by running the ball. Since that game the Redskins have been an entirely different team. The confidence in the defense has absolutely vanished. A complete reversal from the feeling surrounding the team prior to the Eagles game. The confidence in the offense... well it's hard to imagine what that even felt like at this point. They were late arriving to the Carolina game and they never got off the plane in Toronto.

This 49ers game, and the following three games, are all big games for a team that needs to avoid falling into the basement. They need to win most to get emotionally back into the season. The problem is that they don't look like they believe in themselves anymore. We've all seen the look before and should recognize it by now. It's the look that says "here we go again".

[KCClybun]

Every game is just a game, including this one. You have to go into it with a player's mentality; treat every game of equal importance (by treating every game as SUPER important), play as hard as you can, and win or lose, you celebrate it for a day and then you get over it and move on.

Of course, win or lose, I'm betting on a huge overreaction on the fanbases part, so what do I know?

[Brotherz]

Why do you say London has pride? Because he pounds his fists and looks mad? Very hard for fans to judge the effort level of the team....

As a matter of fact one of the reasons we got run over by Carolina was because London had a very poor game... Out of position on several runs up the gut and had a hard time keepin up in space. I did think he was one of the few that played well in Buffalo though.

The Bills game was the only game this year where I thought there was a lack of energy.... But that stems more from lack of confidence than lack of caring.

There have been a few times in my lifetime when I thought the Redskins quit and/or didn't care.... The end of the 2000 season comes to mind as does the last half of the Spurrier and Zorn eras.... But I are absolutely no evidence of that yet.

So is it your position that nobody is quitting and lacking pride EXCEPT London? He had 20 tackles and half a sack on a bad hamstring against Buffalo. That's why I think he has pride. His pounding his fist and being angry is more than ANYONE else on our defense did. They didn't even looked like they care. They get burned on 3rd and 22 and blame the coach for the call. They hang their heads and jump off-sides in crucial moments. They take stupid penalties and have no fight after being embarrassed twice. They showed up for a HOME game, after a bye, against a team in their division who humiliated them last year in front of their home crowd after a bye with an opportunity to seize control of the division, bury a hated rival and send them into a tail spin and they show up flat? Seriously? You don't see signs of quit? But you see signs of quit in fletcher? We just aren't seeing the same game. I get and respect your point, I really do. But I disagree that this team is showing pride or fight in anyway, other than Fletch.

[kleese]

So is it your position that nobody is quitting and lacking pride EXCEPT London? He had 20 tackles and half a sack on a bad hamstring against Buffalo. That's why I think he has pride. His pounding his fist and being angry is more than ANYONE else on our defense did. They didn't even looked like they care. They get burned on 3rd and 22 and blame the coach for the call. They hang their heads and jump off-sides in crucial moments. They take stupid penalties and have no fight after being embarrassed twice. They showed up for a HOME game, after a bye, against a team in their division who humiliated them last year in front of their home crowd after a bye with an opportunity to seize control of the division, bury a hated rival and send them into a tail spin and they show up flat? Seriously? You don't see signs of quit? But you see signs of quit in fletcher? We just aren't seeing the same game. I get and respect your point, I really do. But I disagree that this team is showing pride or fight in anyway, other than Fletch.

No, I don't think Fletcher quit. Never. My point is maybe we set him apart because he is actually GOOD.

I don't think Rocky misses tackles because he isn't trying. He just isn't very good.

Sounds to me like you, along with many others, deep down vastly overate the talent on this team. I find it laughable to think we lost to the Eagles because we were "flat." We lost to the Eagles because they are significantly more talented and experienced at mist every key position, not to mention they have a coaching staff/philosophy that has been in place for over a decade.

Of course the players will tell you they lose because they were flat. Otherwise, they then have to admit that they just aren't very good football players (on the whole).

If fans listed the names of the Redskins who think are playing with heart and focus you'd probably hear names like Fletcher, Kerrigan, Davis.... Councidentally those are the players who are also.... GOOD. For all I know Will Montgomery could be the most intense, most hungry, most focused player in the history of football... But if he isn't good, that stuff isn't going to be real obvious on gameday.

No doubt, the team laid an egg against the Bills. That was bad. But it was the only time this year I felt the team wasn't "all in" emotionally. And generally, I'll give a team one mulligan or so per year in that regard. The best team we've fielded since 1991 (2005) got blanked 36-0 in a game.... Sometimes things are off and you get blasted.

If the Redskins don't bounce back Sunday, I might start to buy what your selling, but right now, I am not on board with your theory.

---------- Post added November-3rd-2011 at 10:22 PM ----------

I think our big games came at Dallas and at home against the Eagles. Kleese has a gamblers view of football that I think is lost on fans and players because it ignores the emotional significance of games in favor of factors with superior predictive value. The players and the fans don't give a damn if the match ups favor them against the cowboys and the eagles, they want to rise up and defeat the teams in their division and prove they have what again".

And this is my point exactly. Our fans acted like all we needed to do was come out, try hard, punch the Eagles in the mouth, and we'd win the game. If the talent levels were equal, or even close, that might have some merit. But they aren't, it doesn't.

And in reality, we were even flat all to start that day?

Eagles went three and out on their first drive. On our first drive we made a few first downs and were looking good until a holding call pushed is just out of FG range and the drive stalled. It ended with Rex's first INT, which was also they play where kory went down.... And in retaliation for that, Trent got a 15 yard penalty that gave the Eagles the ball at the 17 instead of the 2. Even then, we stopped the Eagles again..... If not for the unlucky personal foul on Orakpo. Then, a few minutes later Cooley and Trent go down.

In the span of about 10 game minutes, we lost three starters on offense and had two personal foul calls (both of which were aggression based).... If anything maybe we were TOO jacked for that game?

Saying the team was "flat" is just much easier than analyzing what actually happened I guess.

[88Comrade2000]

The 49ers overachieving in general is a point I agree on. They are a team playing solid fundamental football, but at the same time once the dust of the NFL settles, I believe they will be a one and done playoff team once the other elite teams settle in.

However, at the same time this is a completely separate point from whether or not they will run our team over. I am afraid they will.

What elite teams?

Packers are the only elite team in the NFC and maybe NFL.

The wild cards will be from the NFC North and NFC South. NFC EAST will send only the division winner- which be either be the Giants or the Eagles will have completed their turnaround and take it from the Giants.

San Fran who will have one of the byes will face either the Lions, Falcons, Saints, or Bucs. I think they can beat all 4 of those teams; especially since they have already beaten 2 of them.

---------- Post added November-4th-2011 at 03:45 AM ----------

No, our first big game was the Eagles. A chance to claim first place in the division, kill the playoff hopes of a rival and being healthy and coming off a bye. That was our big game and we laid an egg. We haven't recovered from it since.

Dallas was the first big game.

The 2011 Skins are on the verge of quitting. A couple of more losses and this team will probably hang it up for the year.

[KCClybun]

And this is my point exactly. Our fans acted like all we needed to do was come out, try hard, punch the Eagles in the mouth, and we'd win the game. If the talent levels were equal, or even close, that might have some merit. But they aren't, it doesn't.

And in reality, we were even flat all to start that day?

Eagles went three and out on their first drive. On our first drive we made a few first downs and were looking good until a holding call pushed is just out of FG range and the drive stalled. It ended with Rex's first INT, which was also they play where kory went down.... And in retaliation for that, Trent got a 15 yard penalty that gave the Eagles the ball at the 17 instead of the 2. Even then, we stopped the Eagles again..... If not for the unlucky personal foul on Orakpo. Then, a few minutes later Cooley and Trent go down.

In the span of about 10 game minutes, we lost three starters on offense and had two personal foul calls (both of which were aggression based).... If anything maybe we were TOO jacked for that game?

Saying the team was "flat" is just much easier than analyzing what actually happened I guess.

It also bares mentioning that in two of the last three games, our defenses first drive on the field has resulted in a three and out for the team. Versus Carolina, after getting torched, they stiffened in the red zone and forced a field goal, and forced field goals the entire first half of that game. Versus the Eagles, they got beat up most of the day, and then kept Philly out of the end zone and field goal range the rest of the day. "Defense plays flat" my ass. Our defense just isn't built to keep us hanging in the game as long as it has.

What did the offense do after that?

Versus Philly, Rex threw an interception. Versus Carolina, Beck fumbles the ball. Versus the Bills, we ran that stupid end around with Stallworth and got a three and out. Both plays ruined a solid drive. Our defense is getting sold out by our offense.

All this running on our defense wouldn't happen if the offense could score 14 and then let the defense attack.

But I don't for a second believe this "our guy aren't playing hard, they don't care, they play flat" bullcrap.

---------- Post added November-4th-2011 at 03:59 AM ----------

And this is my point exactly. Our fans acted like all we needed to do was come out, try hard, punch the Eagles in the mouth, and we'd win the game. If the talent levels were equal, or even close, that might have some merit. But they aren't, it doesn't.

And in reality, we were even flat all to start that day?

Eagles went three and out on their first drive. On our first drive we made a few first downs and were looking good until a holding call pushed is just out of FG range and the drive stalled. It ended with Rex's first INT, which was also they play where kory went down.... And in retaliation for that, Trent got a 15 yard penalty that gave the Eagles the ball at the 17 instead of the 2. Even then, we stopped the Eagles again..... If not for the unlucky personal foul on Orakpo. Then, a few minutes later Cooley and Trent go down.

In the span of about 10 game minutes, we lost three starters on offense and had two personal foul calls (both of which were aggression based).... If anything maybe we were TOO jacked for that game?

Saying the team was "flat" is just much easier than analyzing what actually happened I guess.

It also bares mentioning that in two of the last three games, our defenses first drive on the field has resulted in a three and out for the team. Versus Carolina, after getting torched, they stiffened in the red zone and forced a field goal, and forced field goals the entire first half of that game. Versus the Eagles, they got beat up most of the day, and then kept Philly out of the end zone and field goal range the rest of the day. "Defense plays flat" my ass. Our defense just isn't built to keep us hanging in the game as long as it has.

What did the offense do after that?

Versus Philly, Rex threw an interception. Versus Carolina, Beck fumbles the ball. Versus the Bills, we ran that stupid end around with Stallworth and got a three and out. Both plays ruined a solid drive. Our defense is getting sold out by our offense.

All this running on our defense wouldn't happen if the offense could score 14 and then let the defense attack.

But I don't for a second believe this "our guy aren't playing hard, they don't care, they play flat" bullcrap.

[Brotherz]

If the Redskins don't bounce back Sunday, I might start to buy what your selling, but right now, I am not on board with your theory.

Ok, I can probably buy the idea that we are mis-labeling effort and talent. Fair enough. Are you talking about bouncing back and winning this Sunday? I would be completely shocked if we even kept this game close Sunday. And maybe that's where you and I see this differently Kleese. I don't think this is a very talented football team either. But I see such a distinct difference between Miami, and us right now. I look at teams like Cincinatti, Cleveland, the Raiders, the Chiefs, the Vikings and I just can't say we have that much less talent than those teams. But they are fighting and scrapping. Miami is 0-7. They fight though. I have every reason to believe they will whip our ass in their house. While I agree in theory that we can get overly deluded about the talent level of this team, particularly when we start 3-1 and "shoulda" been 4-0 going into our bye, the reality is this team looks absolutely pathetic right now in almost every conceivable area. We aren't even just losing, we are getting stomped. In the age of parity its really hard for me to look at this team and say we are THAT far behind everyone else in talent. I'll be utterly shocked if Miami gets blanked 23-0 by the Bills. How the hell does Andry Dalton with no off-season, and Lewis as HC overcome the carson palmer situation, the lockout and everything else and remain competitive? They aren't scary talented. There are alot of teams with talent similar to us who don't lay eggs like we do. That's something else. In my mind that's pride, but I am happy to discuss it after we get humiliated in our house again by San Fran sunday. Believe me man, I hope you are right. Hell, I can come back here and be pretty happy to eat crow if we don't get blown out of our own building. I just don't see where they plan on manufacturing the pride that would require in a week though.

[kleese]

Ok, I can probably buy the idea that we are mis-labeling effort and talent. Fair enough. Are you talking about bouncing back and winning this Sunday? I would be completely shocked if we even kept this game close Sunday. And maybe that's where you and I see this differently Kleese. I don't think this is a very talented football team either. But I see such a distinct difference between Miami, and us right now. I look at teams like Cincinatti, Cleveland, the Raiders, the Chiefs, the Vikings and I just can't say we have that much less talent than those teams. But they are fighting and scrapping. Miami is 0-7. They fight though. I have every reason to believe they will whip our ass in their house. While I agree in theory that we can get overly deluded about the talent level of this team, particularly when we start 3-1 and "shoulda" been 4-0 going into our bye, the reality is this team looks absolutely pathetic right now in almost every conceivable area. We aren't even just losing, we are getting stomped. In the age of parity its really hard for me to look at this team and say we are THAT far behind everyone else in talent. I'll be utterly shocked if Miami gets blanked 23-0 by the Bills. How the hell does Andry Dalton with no off-season, and Lewis as HC overcome the carson palmer situation, the lockout and everything else and remain competitive? They aren't scary talented. There are alot of teams with talent similar to us who don't lay eggs like we do. That's something else. In my mind that's pride, but I am happy to discuss it after we get humiliated in our house again by San Fran sunday. Believe me man, I hope you are right. Hell, I can come back here and be pretty happy to eat crow if we don't get blown out of our own building. I just don't see where they plan on manufacturing the pride that would require in a week though.

I think you are being overly reactionary to the drubbing in Toronto. That is the only game this where we got stomped, and the only game where I was disappointed in the team from an effort/energy level. The Carolina game got out of hand in the early part of the 4th quarter, but that had more to do with us simply not being able to keep up with Cam and Steve Smith and less to do with how hard we were trying. And for as hard as Rex tried to give the Eagles game away, we hung tough in that game. A "quitting" team doesn't get down 20-0 and then lose 20-13.

And those other teams you mentioned?

Chiefs lost their first two games by a combined 89-10. Raiders lost their most recent game 28-0. Browns got plastered at home by the Titans. Titans got plastered at home by a hobbled Houston team. Bengals are the definitie exception. Marvin Lewis is doing an awesome job, no doubt. You have every right to be envious of Bengals fans.

While we agree that our talent gap is fairly large, the gap in the NFL in general is fairly small...we see it all the time. This is why I see us hanging close this week. I actually think we can almsot DICTATE that it stays close.

Coming off a humiliating loss, we could go ultra-conservative in an effort to stay in the game. Run on first, run on second, screen on third, etc... maybe piddle out a few first downs, taking no chances or shots downfield though. Maybe letting the defense rest a bit more...give them more field to work with, etc... Sort of bleed the life out of the game on purpose.

Now, where I could be wrong is in my view of the 49ers. While I think they are doing a great job and will cruise to a division title, I do not believe they are a dynamic offense or one that can always dictate tempo and pace. They are more methodical than they teams we've played recently. And yes, my law of averages hangs over this game as well....

The Vegas thing also, is quite interesting. The books are begging the public to keep bettting on SF, staking their lot with the Skins this week. Again, it's gambling and maybe the books get toasted, but when I played the games, I always got very nervous if I was on the public side.

And in the end, I do think we lose Sunday. I just think it will be an ugly, 16-13 type loss as oppossed to the 35-3 pasting many are predicting.

[Destino]

And this is my point exactly. Our fans acted like all we needed to do was come out, try hard, punch the Eagles in the mouth, and we'd win the game. If the talent levels were equal, or even close, that might have some merit. But they aren't, it doesn't.

Based on what the Eagles had done to the point all we had to do was let them be the team that self destructed. You act as if the 1-4 eagles were some colossus coming into FedEx field when they clearly were not. The team that makes the least mistakes wins in a league that has a great deal of parity even if there is a talent disparity on the field. Also you are ignoring the "division x factor" that seems to pop up all the time. The Chiefs are not as talented as the Chargers. The Chargers screwed up in a close game and lost. The Bills are not as talented as the Pats and yet they won.

The skins didn't have to come out and punch them in the mouth, they just needed to execute and not kill themselves.

And in reality, we were even flat all to start that day?

Eagles went three and out on their first drive. On our first drive we made a few first downs and were looking good until a holding call pushed is just out of FG range and the drive stalled. It ended with Rex's first INT, which was also they play where kory went down.... And in retaliation for that, Trent got a 15 yard penalty that gave the Eagles the ball at the 17 instead of the 2. Even then, we stopped the Eagles again..... If not for the unlucky personal foul on Orakpo. Then, a few minutes later Cooley and Trent go down.

In the span of about 10 game minutes, we lost three starters on offense and had two personal foul calls (both of which were aggression based).... If anything maybe we were TOO jacked for that game?

Saying the team was "flat" is just much easier than analyzing what actually happened I guess.

The defense wasn't flat at all but the passing game was absolutely falling apart heading into that game. You don't think 9/22 143yards 0TD 4int is flat? What about 6/12 53yards 0TD 2int? That was Rex's second half against the Rams. The fact that he was falling apart was evident to anyone paying attention. I was posting about his obvious decline before the bye week. He was sharply trending down and he hit the pavement against the Eagles.

Now let's talk about start of the Eagles game:

A holding penalty from Trent Williams is nothing new and it came on 1st down. The Redskins were at the 32 at the time. Rex's interception occurred when the skins were on the 38. You really think that 6 yards is responsible for Rex throwing an interception? I don't.

I call an offense that can't do much more than screw up "flat". Perhaps you think that's the wrong word and would rather attribute it to being "too hyped up". Personally I don't think Rex imploded because he was too excited.

[authentic]

ESPN 980

Just came back from the Washington Redskins locker room - Didn't get to talk to Trent Williams yet, but Mike Shanahan told other reporters that he is a game time decision, will test it Sunday AM. Talked to Kareem Moore he says "I'm ready to go! Ask the big man upstairs." Of course, Shanny won't say. A source close to the situation said he would very likely be promoted. Talked to Maurice Hurt, who has been practicing exclusively at left guard this week, as opposed to both guard spots.

[SkinsFanCTT]

Before you can get a W can we at least get more than a 3 and out and run the ball more than 5 times a game.

That would be a start.

SF is nothing special, the QB has not had to 'win' a game in over a year.

They play fundamental defense and the sound D gives the O more than average opportunties to move the ball........the SF 49ers remind me of the Alabama Crimson Tide or LSU Tigers in college football........49ers, LSU, Alabama don't have anything special on offense. Alabama at home leads 10-3 at the half then wins 41-3 due to the quality of the D getting the offense on the field for 25 of the 30 minutes in a half and wearing down the oppositions D. LSU is the same way.....you can't name a heisman hopeful on their team because there aren't any, not even a top 20 finalist. They play sound D and the D opens up the O.

No real talent on the team that will be around for more than a few months then forgotten......how is Crabtree doing by the way? Hurt? Flat? Bust? Exactly. He has 250 yards half way through the season. Gore is on the decline, Alex Smith needs to 'manage' (100 yards rushing then he starts to pass when he has the lead and looks to extend it, otherwise he doesn't take chances)..

They do everything soundly. They don't blow people out, they don't have to. They do just enough on offense to get the win and don't take chance or make silly mistakes. They capitalize on turnovers the D creates and slink on out of the stadium with a W.

I see a 23-10 win for the 49ers. I don't see how we can run the ball against them let alone pass. 10 in the box and they will dare Beck to pass. He will fail and a 10-7 game will get away from them in a hurry in the 2nd Q......a glimmer of a comeback are squashed by a late fumble and a pick.......

[blueskin]

Last week, Buffalo was our "first must win of 2011"

The week before, it was the Panthers.

Remember how the Philly game was the make or break for the season?

People keep moving the goal posts on this team. We failed our test already. It was the Cowboys game- we beat them and the Redskins begin to leave behind the mediocrity of past years; but we all know what has happened: the same old ****- start well, go into a mid-season swoon, and clusterfark ourselves into last place.

The only question is, can the Redskins get back off of the canvas before its too late. They need to beat the 9ers for that to happen. I fervently hope they will, but I am more cynical of their chances than ever.

And this is from someone who rocked my Skins gear during the Ritchie Petitbone (who should've had at least another season) era, and the unimaginable collapse of 1996 (7-1 to 9-7 and out of the playoffs. **** you, Norval!)

[Brotherz]

And in the end, I do think we lose Sunday. I just think it will be an ugly, 16-13 type loss as oppossed to the 35-3 pasting many are predicting.

I want to see some fight. I'll be shocked if its a 16-13 type game. I really will. I expect an absolute drubbing at home. Again, I am actually ok with the losing (not in the general sense but this season). I had em 8-8 and maybe I HOPED for 9-7. When we went 3-1 I started to think "what if" too much. BUT, the eagles game brought me crashing down to earth. Carolina and Buffalo have really crushed my spirit. I think what really sucks the most from my perspective is the defense. I am just not impressed. Ya know everyone talks about the giants game and how they were all injured and we beat their second team etc, but there offense was as healthy as it had been all year. I thought the defense played pretty inspired in that game. against Arizona other than that breakdown on Fitz, I thought they played another solid game. Dallas - Dissappointing game but other than that AWFUL 3rrd and twenty something, I thought they fought their guts out (homage to JG). St. Louis?Yea, its St. Louis but I don't care! We got after the quarterback and stopped Steven Jackson.

I started having this vision of us having a top 10 defense and an offense that was improving each week. I am a firm believer in the idea that "its not just the wins and losses, its how and when they come". I guess I thought, with the offense improving and the defense upper echelon we'd maybe end up 8-8 but win 4 out of 5 at the end or throw down hard with the pats and jets at the end of the season. I wanted to see a semblance of a team that could put a franchize QB in there and have a reasonable expectation of being competitive. That's not what I am seeing. My expectations after watching the defense get torched to the tune of 20 first half points against the eagles and then getting driven on like a bus against Carolina only to get there heads handed to them against Buffalo is just so disheartening.

I know the offense is putting them in bad spots etc but the defense still looks average or below. I know you will point to the points scored but that's deceiving. When teams jump out to multiple touchdown leads their game plan changes too. very rarely in the NFL do you see the 59 pt drubbings like last year against Philly. Usually, when a team gets up by three touchdowns in the first half, the gameplan is to leave healthy and run the clock down. The bills could have put up 40 on us. They didn't have to. They literally could score at will. Maybe you are right about San Fran not being able to do that but I doubt it. I see Gore rushing for 150 and 3 tds and yea, I even see guys who can't catch a cold like Crabtree having a big fantasy day against us. I am negative right now. (and wordy). . . . if I see a 16-13 game I will be impressed. But after the last three weeks I am calling 31-3.

---------- Post added November-4th-2011 at 02:42 PM ----------

I call an offense that can't do much more than screw up "flat". Perhaps you think that's the wrong word and would rather attribute it to being "too hyped up". Personally I don't think Rex imploded because he was too excited.

I think Kleese is being even more basic than that. He's not saying it was because they were too flat or too excited, he's saying its because they just suck talent-wise.

[Crazy Levi]

The 2011 Skins are on the verge of quitting. A couple of more losses and this team will probably hang it up for the year.

They did it last year, and they did it the year before. It's kind of common practice with these guys.

[kleese]

Destino- brothers is right... I am contesting the notion that we lost to Philly because we didn't try hard enough. I don't buy that at all. Our offense struggled because our offense sucks, not because they were flat or unmotivated.

---------- Post added November-4th-2011 at 02:38 PM ----------

They did it last year, and they did it the year before. It's kind of common practice with these guys.

I think there is ZERO evidence that the team quit last year. Zero. Fat Albert quit of course, but that's about it.

We played hard in Dallas, played hard (and won) in Jax, an played hard the last game of the year against the Giants. I saw absolutely nothing to indicate that the team stopped trying. Were they probably discouraged? Sure. Quitters? No.

Again, it's the tired fan refrain that all a team needs to do is dig down deep and victory will be theirs.

[Destino]

Destino- brothers is right... I am contesting the notion that we lost to Philly because we didn't try hard enough. I don't buy that at all. Our offense struggled because our offense sucks, not because they were flat or unmotivated.

I agree with you on effort, I don't think they quit in the Philly game at all. I don't think they quit against the Bills either for that matter and that game was a shut out. I do however think you are failing to properly appreciate the importance of confidence in sports. The Redskins started the season believing they had a special locker room and now have the familiar "here we go again" tone.

We lost to Philly because this team (Rex, mostly) simple could not execute and I believe defenses are getting better at game planning for Kyle's offense. I'm not sure we lose that game if Rex doesn't have a total meltdown.

[Taylor4Life]

-- The transitive property has almost no place in the NFL.

This is a point that few people really get. If games were so easy to predict on a week to week basis, we would have a bunch of bankrupt casinos in Vegas (if the they're not already bankrupt from the recession).

[kleese]

I agree with you on effort, I don't think they quit in the Philly game at all. I don't think they quit against the Bills either for that matter and that game was a shut out. I do however think you are failing to properly appreciate the importance of confidence in sports. The Redskins started the season believing they had a special locker room and now have the familiar "here we go again" tone.

We lost to Philly because this team (Rex, mostly) simple could not execute and I believe defenses are getting better at game planning for Kyle's offense. I'm not sure we lose that game if Rex doesn't have a total meltdown.

I don't dispute the confidence argument at all. My response was to the "we came out flat" versus the Eagles crowd.

---------- Post added November-4th-2011 at 09:17 PM ----------

This is a point that few people really get. If games were so easy to predict on a week to week basis, we would have a bunch of bankrupt casinos in Vegas (if the they're not already bankrupt from the recession).

Exactly. It just isn't that easy. Blowouts happen of course, but predicting them is hardly an exact science.