GHH laid totally bare with his fanhood on the line: Why it's best for our team to lose out the rest of the 2011 season.

[addicted]

Well the point is that we have been a losing organization for 20 years, and we want that to change. The overwhelming evidence suggests that it will not change unless we draft a franchise QB, as so many other (now) successful teams have done. If you think the difference between 8-8 and 3-13 is that great, well that's a difference in opinion. But I can tell you that the odds suggest that going 3-13 will lead to longer-term sucess than going 8-8. And also, you suggest that a 'losing attitude' carries over from one season to the next. I disagree.

And by the way, I don't see this team going 8-8. But I could see us winning 2 or 3 more games, which will put us squarely back where we are today. A bad team without a QB.

Who is the best QB in the game today? Most would say Aaron Rogers...who was drafted in the 20's.

Which QB playing today has the most trophies? Brady...who wasn't drafted in the first round

Which QB today has been in 3 Superbowls? Ben Rothesberger...who wasn't drafted in picks 1-10

Now your bonus question...of all of the QB's playing in 2011 who were picked first overall how many superbowls have they won? Only one of them, Eli Manning. In fact Look at the QB's drafted in round one over the years

1990 – Andre Ware (Detroit), Jeff George (Indianapolis)

1991 – Dan McGwire (Seattle), Todd Marinovich (Oakland)

1992 – David Klingler (Cincinnati), Dave Brown (N.Y. Giants), Tommy Maddox (Broncos)

1993 – Drew Bledsoe (New England), Rick Mirer (Seattle)

1994 – Heath Shuler (Washington), Trent Dilfer (Tampa Bay)

1995 – Steve McNair (Houston), Kerry Collins (Carolina)

1996 – NONE

1997 – Jim Druckenmiller (San Francisco)

1998 – Peyton Manning (Indianapolis), Ryan Leaf (San Diego)

1999 – Akili Smith (Cincinnati), Daunte Culpepper (Minnesota), Cade McNown (Chicago)

2000 – Chad Pennington (New York Jets)

2001 – Mike Vick (Atlanta)

2002 – David Carr (Houston), Joey Harrington (Detroit), Patrick Ramsey (Washington)

2003 – Carson Palmer (Cincinnati), Byron Leftwich (Jacksonville), Kyle Boller (Baltimore), Rex Grossman (Chicago)

2004 – Eli Manning (N.Y. Giants), Philip Rivers (San Diego), Ben Roethlisberger (Pittsburgh), J.P. Losman (Buffalo)

2005 – Alex Smith (San Francisco), Aaron Rodgers (Green Bay), Jason Campbell (Washington)

2006 – Matt Leinart (Arizona), Jay Cutler (Denver)

2007 – JaMarcus Russell (Oakland), Brady Quinn (Cleveland)

2008 – Matt Ryan (Atlanta), Joe Flacco (Baltimore)

2009 – Matt Stafford (Detroit), Mark Sanchez (N.Y. Jets), Josh Freeman (Tampa Bay)

The QB's bolded won the Superbowl and only two of them both were named Manning ever won a Superbowl after being drafted #1 overall

[GibbsFactor]

And for the losing begets losing crowd... why is it that the only two times we made it to the playoffs, we had losing records before starting the run?

Only to follow up both playoff years with very disappointing campaigns the year after?

Because the losing begets losing argument is full of human waste.

[zCommander]

I always believe that sometimes you have to step back and then move forward. It would be wise to do just that for this season. With all the injuries we are set back anyways so might as well do just that. Step back, recollect, and then move forward to more prosperous road.

[Drew_Fl]

So those that shorted the market 4 years ago are losers? Their bank account says differently.

Losing begets losing? What is this AA?

That's a ridiculous argument. Some people do live in reality and some of those people can be in the football business.

Making millions on the stock market does not equal building a super bowl football team. Also, all people who not only work in football, but actually, you know, EXIST, do live in reality. Dan Snyder is and was an amazing business man. How has that worked out since he took over?

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

So your favorite team's owner has already proved your own "reality" isn't so.

[addicted]

So those that shorted the market 4 years ago are losers? Their bank account says differently.

When did we start talking about the Stock Market? That's totally different then football.

Losing begets losing? What is this AA?

No but maybe you need a meeting

That's a ridiculous argument. Some people do live in reality and some of those people can be in the football business.

Any one pretending at 3-3 that we can control our positioning in next years draft to get a QB is not living in reality

[Taylor4Life]

I don't make judgments on what fans are supposed to say and how they should think, this game is for all of us to enjoy (or to be miserable with) as we please.

It does pain me, though, to see threads like this and it's not even November yet.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

The QB's bolded won the Superbowl and only two of them both were named Manning ever won a Superbowl after being drafted #1 overall

Of course if you took that sample size and did it for the whole SB era, you'd find that of 20 QB's drafted #1 (including Steve Young in 1984's suplimental draft), 7 have gone on to win the SB. 17 times between them out of 45 SB's.

But don't let all the stats get in the way of a good ASF style rant.

Hail.

*Edit* But hey, ignore me. I'm just an asshat who's not a proper fan.

[War Paint]

And for the losing begets losing crowd... why is it that the only two times we made it to the playoffs, we had losing records before starting the run?

Only to follow up both playoff years with very disappointing campaigns the year after?

Because the losing begets losing argument is full of human waste.

It's easy. Because back then we were built with aging vets that briefly played at a higher level for short periods of time. Players like Jon Jansen and Mark Brunell rapidly went into a downward spiral. We had no depth. We didn't build through the draft. Also, Gibbs retired after our last playoff run and we replaced him with Zorn.

[Drew_Fl]

Of course if you took that sample size and did it for the whole SB era, you'd find tha oft 20 QB's drafted #1 (including Steve Young in 1984's suplimental draft), 7 have gone on to win the SB. 17 times between them out of 45 SB's.

But don't let all the stats get in the way of a good ASF style rant.

Hail.

*Edit* But hey, ignore me. I'm just an asshat who's not a proper fan.

What is your endgame to tanking the rest of the season? We aren't getting Luck, and several of the teams that are probably picking in the top 10 around us this season do not need a QB. And you know as well as I do Shanahan won't just pick any QB who is there (re Gabbert, Blaine). If Shanny doesn't like him, we aren't taking him plain and simple. So if we get so high up the draft board, is it not unrealistic to think that the "best" available QB is not graded highly according to Shanny, so he tries to trade down but can't so we take a high graded player at another position?

I'm just saying, you act like 3-13 guarantees a great QB (what even close to "sure things" are there after Luck?) and we do not need to be that bad to get a top tier QB, and that may be "too bad" to get the QB that Shanny wants unless he is able to trade down.

[GibbsFactor]

When did we start talking about the Stock Market? That's totally different then football.

No but maybe you need a meeting

Any one pretending at 3-3 that we can control our positioning in next years draft to get a QB is not living in reality

You can certainly control your draft position.

What's so wrong with big picture thinking in football? Especially when you are rebuilding? I'd be pissed if my coach still thought this team was a contender. I'd fire him for someone competent.

---------- Post added October-25th-2011 at 05:19 PM ----------

It's easy. Because back then we were built with aging vets that briefly played at a higher level for short periods of time. Players like Jon Jansen and Mark Brunell rapidly went into a downward spiral. We had no depth. We didn't build through the draft. Also, Gibbs retired after our last playoff run and we replaced him with Zorn.

The team wasn't that different from 05 to 07. That excuse doesn't hold water for me. Same team give or take a few new pieces here or there. Core was the same.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

What is your endgame to tanking the rest of the season? We aren't getting Luck, and several of the teams that are probably picking in the top 10 around us this season do not need a QB. And you know as well as I do Shanahan won't just pick any QB who is there (re Gabbert, Blaine). If Shanny doesn't like him, we aren't taking him plain and simple. So if we get so high up the draft board, is it not unrealistic to think that the "best" available QB is not graded highly according to Shanny, so he tries to trade down but can't so we take a high graded player at another position?

I'm just saying, you act like 3-13 guarantees a great QB (what even close to "sure things" are there after Luck?) and we do not need to be that bad to get a top tier QB, and that may be "too bad" to get the QB that Shanny wants unless he is able to trade down.

The closer we get to that top pick strengthens our hand all round. Be it trading up. Be it maybe the Rams land it and let's say Bradford becomes available. Or be it taking one of the one or two other top level guys a level below Luck. (Some would say RGIII, some Tanehil (Sp?), and some, myself included, Landry Jones.).

This is a deep QB class it's true. But the very best guys will go real high.

All about maximising your chances, and not just settling for merely 'good.'

Hail.

[addicted]

Of course if you took that sample size and did it for the whole SB era, you'd find that of 20 QB's drafted #1 (including Steve Young in 1984's suplimental draft), 7 have gone on to win the SB. 17 times between them out of 45 SB's.

But don't let all the stats get in the way of a good ASF style rant.

Hail.

*Edit* But hey, ignore me. I'm just an asshat who's not a proper fan.

Are you implying that the games not changed?

If you don't think that is significant then your just looking for reasons to support your arguement.

18 of the last 20 Superbowls were won by a QB not picked #1 overall, keep beliving we need that top pick

And keep pointing to ancient history like you just did, it only goes to show your grasping at straws. Recent history doesn't agree with you one bit

[GibbsFactor]

Are you implying that the games not changed?

If you don't think that is significant then your just looking for reasons to support your arguement.

18 of the last 20 Superbowls were won by a QB not picked #1 overall, keep beliving we need that top pick

And keep pointing to ancient history like you just did, it only goes to show your grasping at straws. Recent history doesn't agree with you one bit

Aaron Rodgers should have been the #1 pick. Your stats are screwed up due to really bad 49ers management.

Drew Brees? He blew it up in college and was only a second because of his height.

Here's the deal. The NFL disagrees with you. Why? Quarterbacks continue to get picked #1 overall.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Are you implying that the games not changed?

If you don't think that is significant then your just looking for reasons to support your arguement.

18 of the last 20 Superbowls were won by a QB not picked #1 overall, keep beliving we need that top pick

And keep pointing to ancient history like you just did, it only goes to show your grasping at straws. Recent history doesn't agree with you one bit

Straw man, straight out of the ASF playbook.

Hail.

[addicted]

You can certainly control your draft position.

Just how can you do that?

Seriously answer that for me because I would like to know how you can even speculate on that

Here is the NFL right now, worst 15 teams records

0-6

3-3

3-3

2-5

0-7

3-3

2-4

3-3

3-3

2-4

1-6

2-5

2-4

1-5

0-6

Based on records alone how could you after 7 weeks of football know where any one would be drafting next April? And that's what this post is all about, GHH says at 3-3 we should lose out. My point is that there is no way you could know that is what is best for this team and recent history shows we can vastly improve by manipulating the draft sliding down then moving up

What's so wrong with big picture thinking in football? Especially when you are rebuilding? I'd be pissed if my coach still thought this team was a contender. I'd fire him for someone competent.

This a a .500 team. Everyone knows that. But it's not a terrible blow the thing the hell up either. It's rebuilding and that process takes time

---------- Post added October-25th-2011 at 04:39 PM ----------

Straw man, straight out of the ASF playbook.

Hail.

2 out of the last 18 isn't strawman it's a dominate arguement and clear trend pal. Not since 2007 has a QB picked #1 overall won the SB, and only 2 times since 1990 has a #1 overall QB selection won the SB. Straw man my ass pal

[bigdoublebass]

If your not first you last. I hate wanting to lose so i just keep up with where the teams lower then us are and cheer for them to win.

[addicted]

Aaron Rodgers should have been the #1 pick. Your stats are screwed up due to really bad 49ers management.

Whatever..if that was even the case why did 20 teams pass on him? Hahaha

Drew Brees? He blew it up in college and was only a second because of his height.

Drew Brees was a 2nd round QB selection and no one but the Saints wanted him when he hit Free Agency. Hahaha

Here's the deal. The NFL disagrees with you. Why? Quarterbacks continue to get picked #1 overall.

And success of those picked QB's disagrees with anyone saying that you need a QB #1 overall to win jack spit. Unless you want to believe that 2 out of 20 is something dominate which it isnt. Hahah

[SKINS'n'Spurs]

I am not rooting for the Skins to lose any games, I would rather see us show some character and battle for the rest of the season with the rest of our devastatingly crippled team. Putting Cooley on IR just stings. He is my favorite current Redskin and that is probably due to his character and personality more so than his physical skills at this point. I'm hoping he returns 100% healthy in the offseason and the organization doesn't disappoint his loyal fans by shipping him and his clay pots off to some TE graveyard.

Anyways, as I was saying about tanking the season.... I am not rooting for it, but wouldn't be too terribly suprised or distraught if we did AND were then able to secure top 3 pick (hopefully Luck). This is a better plan than the one proposed the other day by trading off the next 3 years of draft picks for the guy. And if Shanny & Co. wanted to tank the season, it is sort of in their hands.....We play all the terrible teams (MIA, Vikings, & Colts.... damn we could have lost to STL too, haha). This is totally hypothetical, It would destroy Shanny's reputation as well as most of those associated with our organization, so I'm hoping it doesn't happen whether it's on purpose or not. Just thought it was interesting that we have those 3 terrible teams left on the schedule; and winning or losing to them could make a huge difference if not for us (definitely for them) on who lands Luck.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

2 out of the last 18 isn't strawman it's a dominate arguement and clear trend pal. Not since 2007 has a QB picked #1 overall won the SB, and only 2 times since 1990 has a #1 overall QB selection won the SB. Straw man my ass pal

You get presented with the full facts of QB's drafted #1 in the SB era, instead of your small sample size. You then turn and twist that around with a fictitious assertion that anything outside of your sample size doesn't matter as that's 'ancient history'; and this fallacy of me believing we need the top pick. (Something you keep both running with and quoting out of context.).

Congratulations. Not only have you done ASF proud by manipulating stats to suit, you've created your own straw man in the process.

And I'm not your 'pal.' We went over that. I'm just an asshat who's not a proper fan that you'd like to fight, amongst other things.

Hail.

[addicted]

You get presented with the full facts of QB's drafted #1 in the SB era, instead of your small sample size

The last 20 years, the most recent 20 years isn't a small sample size. That's the problem with your bs. The most recent 20 years is not a small sample size and its not a strawman. Just because Bart Starr fits your arguement "In the Superbowl Era" doesn't mean a damn thing. Have you really been under a rock all of these years where people constantly ***** and moan that today's NFL isn't like yesterdays NFL? I mean seriously. In the modern NFL you don't need to draft a QB #1 overall to win. Unless you think 10% out of 100% says you do. So stick the strawman arguement, it's not. Your clinging to that because like most everything you and I argue about you end up on the losing side, lol. You can have the last word. I'm leaving work now. I will continue keeping up the good fght against your bullspit the next time I'm around.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

For someone so fixated on #1 draft picks to of won the SB, I'd of thought you'd of know Bart Starr is far from on that list. But whatever fallacy aids your straw man.

Which apparently you haven't created.

Hail.

[Destructis]

1994 – Heath Shuler (Washington), Trent Dilfer (Tampa Bay)

Dilfer should have been bolded because he did win a Super Bowl. He also goes to prove another point. You don't need a superstar QB to win a SB. Defense wins championships and I still believe that even in today's league.

We can disagree with GHH and I normally do, but I still respect his opinion. His opinion matters as much as any of ours does. We are just fans and not GM's or HC's.

I try to avoid this part of the forum after a loss because of the kneejerk reactions here. I saw the thread title and had to click on it though.

Even on Twitter, I see kneejerk reactions. LL56 seems to boil things down most of the time and keeps it pretty level there. A Skins loss isn't the end of the world. It just shows us areas, that we as a team, need to work on. Wins do the same thing, just without all the angsty stuff.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Thank you D.

Feelings mutual.

I'd disagree on the likes of Dilfer though. Not in respect that you can't win the lot with an average, game manager type behind a real strong D/ great run game et all.

Just that rarely does that success last over a duration. If you haven't got that ability to destroy teams through air in today's NFL, everything else eventually catches up with you.

Hail.

[Seabee1973]

I dont think its a quareentee we draft a QB high next draft. Mike wants a offense that any QB can come in and run efficiently so i think we will continue to strengthen the Line.

[Seabee1973]

You can certainly control your draft position.

What's so wrong with big picture thinking in football? Especially when you are rebuilding? I'd be pissed if my coach still thought this team was a contender. I'd fire him for someone competent.

---------- Post added October-25th-2011 at 05:19 PM ----------

The team wasn't that different from 05 to 07. That excuse doesn't hold water for me. Same team give or take a few new pieces here or there. Core was the same.

They were an ageing Core Injuries in along with no depth did them in plus it was pure luck not Lucky that we made the playoffs if you get my drift