The Fans Shift In Thinking - Or not

[Oldfan]

Never did I think I'd read the fricking Detroit Lions thrown up as an example on how to run and build a franchise on here. Even less so when, in the main to date, we're finally doing it the right way here in DC.

A fair few posters who I really respect are talking from their heart born out of utter frustration at the last two decades, whatever they'd say to the contrary; when they say they'd swap the Lions roster for ours. You'd maybe swap certain players, but there's a lot of young good been put in place here over the last 19 months that's as good pound for pound if not better as what's on Detroit's roster.

And as TD_w alluded to, until it all comes to fruition in Detroit and they become a consistent playoff team, Meyhew is doing no better a job than Allen.

Seriously, Detroit being lorded over on here. Strange, strange times indeed.

Hail.

I don't allow emotions to infect my positions, GHH. Mine aren't "born out of utter frustration" or colored by burgundy glasses.

I don't think that Shanahan and Allen have enough brainpower to compete with Mayhew and Schwartz. I'm also not convinced that their organizational goals stretch beyond building from year to year.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Then why are we even having this discussion, if everything is reduced to, "we'll have to see?"

I don't think I ever claimed to be psychic just because I believe that the Lions are primed for consistent trips to the playoffs soon.

We're discussing it since we have the luxury of hindsight with other teams that have started off promising but fizzled out. Hell, even Millen showed some exciting improvement over a couple years right at the beginning. Or what about the Texans (a team I love every August but ends up in the same place every year)?

I guess I would ask you what you believe Mayhew has done that is so special over the past 3 off-seasons? He drafted Suh which looks like it will yield a perennial Pro Bowl player. He drafted Stafford who looks promising but hasn't shown to be durable enough to play in even half of his team's games since he was drafted.

I'm just not ready to admit that Mayhew has done anything all that special until we see what the sum of his moves will be. The only reason we, as Redskin fans, latch onto what he's done is because it's the polar opposite of what we've tried for a decade or more. But doing it differently doesn't mean you'll do it any better.

[C26 Run]

I absolutely agree with you. We keep having these problems over and over again. We overpay for a veteran thinking that he'll be the solution to the puzzle, it never works out. This organization is about to lose a solid LB in Rocky. It seems like the FO and ownership is looking at highlight reels instead of scouting reports. We need a talent evaluator at the GM position.

:helmet:

[Mahons21]

The 12 prospects we drafted were the most we have ever had in a seven-round draft. We hope that this draft demonstrates our commitment to building the Redskins into a winner for years to come. The coaches and staff have worked diligently since the end of last season and are fully prepared for both free agency and training camp to ensure that we’re ready for the 2011 season

MS and BA July 26th, 2011

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

I aren't complaining at anyone banding us together with the Lions. We deserve to be classed with all the dregs of the league for nigh on two decades now.

What amuses the living piss out of me is a franchise as bad as what we've been, who's not that much further forward than we are, are being put up as an example on how to do things right. They haven't had a freeking winning season since 2000. They've won 8 games out of 48 the last 3 years. Yet their a shining example and all we've done the past 19 months lags behind in comparison?

Darn, what lofty aspirations we have.

Hail.

Actually, I think they are a great example and proof that even the crappiest organizations always have an opportunity to do the things the right way, regardless of their history--I'm jealous that they've finally figured it out.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Actually, I think they are a great example and proof that even the crappiest organizations always have an opportunity to do the things the right way, regardless of their history--I'm jealous that they've finally figured it out.

But why not go all the way and be jealous of a team that is "doing it the right way" AND getting results.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I don't allow emotions to infect my positions, GHH. Mine aren't "born out of utter frustration" or colored by burgundy glasses.

I don't think that Shanahan and Allen have enough brainpower to compete with Mayhew and Schwartz. I'm also not convinced that their organizational goals stretch beyond building from year to year.

Currently on the Lions roster, all brought in under Mayhew and/or Schwartz:

(Ages going into the coming season in brackets)/ Starts of 7 games or more after *

WR. Nate Burleson (30) *14

MLB. Vinny Ciurciu (31)

SS. Eric Coleman (29)

MLB. Isiah Ekejiuba (29)

C. Dylan Gandy (29)

QB. Shaun Hill (31) *10

CB. Tye Hill (29)

WR. Bryant Johnson (31) *7

OLB. Landon Johnson (30) *8

WR. Stefan Logan (30)

RB. Maurice Morris (31) *7

DE. Kyle Vanden Bosch (32) *11

CB. Nathan Vashur (29)

DT. Corey Williams (31) *16

14 players signed the past 3 years, 29 or older going into this season. 7 of whom started 7 or more games last season through whatever means.

Tell me again how the Lions under Mayhew and Schwartz aren't any more 'year-to-year' than the Redskins under Allen and Shanahan.

Hail.

[Mahons21]

Actually, I think they are a great example and proof that even the crappiest organizations always have an opportunity to do the things the right way, regardless of their history--I'm jealous that they've finally figured it out.

Until they produce something on the field they've figured nothing out but how to find talent in the top 2 picks of the draft, that isn't something to be that proud of. Outside of Suh/Stafford/Johnson/Fairley/Best, who is that the Lions have developed/found that is worthy of praise?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Until they produce something on the field they've figured nothing out but how to find talent in the top 2 picks of the draft, that isn't something to be that proud of. Outside of Suh/Stafford/Johnson/Fairley/Best, who is that the Lions have developed/found that is worthy of praise?

And the best (or second best if you like Suh as much as I do) of the bunch was inherited.

[pimpumd]

I think savvy Skins fans were aware of it, but most fans were not. Mike Shanahan didn’t seem to be aware of it. The trade for McNabb and the signing of some old vets signaled that Mike thought he could put a winner on the field right away.

This has all been discussed in numerous other threads. People have different opinions on what exactly Mike Shanahan was trying to do last year.

Look, we were 6-10 last year with horrible QB-play from McNabb. Had McNabb produced like Shanahan thought and we get a couple bounces (or kicks) in our favor, we could have easily been a 9-7 to 10-6 team--that would have been the best we could do with that roster and McNabb playing the way Shanny had thought/hoped.

While that's certainly not the ultimate goal, I think that is what Shanahan had in mind. I think he wanted to make us competitive right off the bat--I think Shanahan wanted to compete early and build on that. I don't think Shanahan thought all he needed to do was get McNabb and "some old vets" and we'd be competing for championships annually. That seems like your impression of Shanahan's mindset.

In the thread-contest to predict the 2010 record, more than half of 300 posters predicted a winning record. Even the media was sold on a big improvement for the Skins. McNabb and Shanahan, big names, big name coach, big name QB --big improvement expected.

You're pointing to a prediction thread on a Redskins forum as evidence that fans didn't think the Redskins needed a lot of new talent? What did you expect? This is a Redskins forum and, while many fans know deep down the team needs a lot of new talent and "rebuilding"-type moves, those fans are going to be optimistic, put on their rose-colored glasses, and be homers when it comes to predicting the team's record--especially with a new, two-time super bowl head coach and a new, borderline HOF QB arriving in the off-season.

I also don't recall the media being sold on big improvement. I don't recall many media members predicting playoffs for us last year, but perhaps I'm just not remembering correctly.

BTW--every time you quote you write "pimpund---I went to UMD, not UND --and yes I know my screen name is immature but I'll blame that on being 25 at the time and still in college/grad school when I registered on this forum.

[The Tris]

Never did I think I'd read the fricking Detroit Lions thrown up as an example on how to run and build a franchise on here. Even less so when, in the main to date, we're finally doing it the right way here in DC.

I believe the Lions win a playoff game before the Redskins do. Look no further than Mahon's sig

MS and BA July 26th, 2011

I think Coach and myself said that Donovan's going to be here from the beginning, and Donovan has been real clear in his intent of being a Redskin. So I think it just puts an exclamation point on it

MS and BA November 16th, 2010

Currently on the Lions roster, all brought in under Mayhew and/or Schwartz

2011 Lions starters 25 and younger:

QB Stafford (23)

RB Best (21)

RB Leshoure (21)

WR Johnson (25)

WR Young (21)

TE Pettigrew (25)

LDE Avril (25)

LDT Suh (23)

RDT Fairley (23)

SLB Palmer (25)

MLB Levy (24)

CB Smith (25)

SS Spievey (23)

FS Delmas (24)

[Mahons21]

I believe the Lions win a playoff game before the Redskins do. Look no further than Mahon's sig

I just figured that way we wouldn't forget it.

MS and BA November 16th, 2010

Plans can change Tris.

I believe you know my opinion that this may have been the case for MS.

[The Tris]

Plans can change

I agree.

So why can't this plan change:

The 12 prospects we drafted were the most we have ever had in a seven-round draft. We hope that this draft demonstrates our commitment to building the Redskins into a winner for years to come. The coaches and staff have worked diligently since the end of last season and are fully prepared for both free agency and training camp to ensure that we’re ready for the 2011 season

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

But why not go all the way and be jealous of a team that is "doing it the right way" AND getting results.

A) Many Redskins fans have discussed their envy for organizations such as PITT, NE, and BALT.

It helps to balance things out by looking at the no-so obvious examples--examples of teams who are making moves that might put them in the category of the above teams; it can resonate more soundly, too, since, record-wise, we're also a losing organization. It can be almost too much at this point to try to compare the Skins to teams like PITT, NE, and BALT

C) Furthermore, people tend to take those team's struggles for granted--their earlier struggles, that is--so it can help to use a fresher example of a team like DET that is making solid moves to put itself in a good position for the future.

[DeaconTheVillain]

Free agents and fantasy about what could be is just a sexy thought to most people. I was guilty the past few years of looking at the names on paper and thinking "how could this not work? We will definitely get a first round bye"

Well...

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

2011 Lions starters 25 and younger:

QB Stafford (23)

RB Best (21)

RB Leshoure (21)

WR Johnson (25)

WR Young (21)

TE Pettigrew (25)

LDE Avril (25)

LDT Suh (23)

RDT Fairley (23)

SLB Palmer (25)

MLB Levy (24)

CB Smith (25)

SS Spievey (23)

FS Delmas (24)

As we stand right now, before any FA moves, you could make a strong case for 9 'Skins starters to be 25 or under: Young/ Torrain or Helu/ Hankerson or Kelly/ Williams, T./ Neild/ Henson or Riley/ Orakpo/ Kerrigan and Barnes.

Point being we're behind the Lions in the amount of years under the respective regimes, but the overall youth-vet. moves aren't that different.

Hail.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Until they produce something on the field they've figured nothing out but how to find talent in the top 2 picks of the draft, that isn't something to be that proud of. Outside of Suh/Stafford/Johnson/Fairley/Best, who is that the Lions have developed/found that is worthy of praise?

So you eliminate five of their best players--as if a bad team should be penalized for sticking with young guys during the season to give them valuable game experience, which often leads to a bad record and lump-taking, the kind that lands you in the top 2-3 of the draft and gets many of those unheralded guys game experience?

Pettigrew and Avril are both solid starters.

[The Tris]

I hope we have 9 starters under 25, and I think its realistic that that could happen (think Neild is the only stretch at this time).

But 9 is not 14, and we still don't have a QB.

And as you said, FA is still to come.

(also, all this excitement about the Lions potential to make the next step is useless unless they sign some OL)

[Oldfan]

pimpumd ...I think that is what Shanahan had in mind. I think he wanted to make us competitive right off the bat--

I agree, but that conflicts with your earlier statement.

...I think most Redskins fans were able to look at the roster that Shanahan acquired when he took over and understand that a significant amount of "rebuilding" was needed--

I think Shanahan wanted to compete early and build on that. I don't think Shanahan thought all he needed to do was get McNabb and "some old vets" and we'd be competing for championships annually. That seems like your impression of Shanahan's mindset.

No -- my impression was that that Mike and most Skins fans thought we could compete right away. But, your claim was that most Skins’ fans knew that the roster was not ready to compete.

You're pointing to a prediction thread on a Redskins forum as evidence that fans didn't think the Redskins needed a lot of new talent?

However flawed, a 300 vote poll is better evidence of the fan optimism than your opinion to the contrary standing on its own.

EDIT: Actually, there were 975 voters. 72% predicted 9-7 or better.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?325746-***-GUESS-our-2010-SEASON-RECORD-CONTEST-***

[Hubbs]

Agree. Our fan base is simply addicted to big names. Meanwhile the Steelers went out and signed 15 UDFA's today. YES 15 of them.

Odds are they will find a contributor or 2 out of that bunch. Meanwhile we are wondering about Santonio Holmes, who would be useless on a team with this kind of foundation

Its mind boggling

God, I wish we'd sign 15 UDFAs.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

God, I wish we'd sign 15 UDFAs.

To make you feel that lil' bit worse man, it was actually 18:

http://www.steelers.com/news/article-1/Profiles-of-18-undrafted-rookies/e870280c-c4df-4a3c-8b3f-9bcfdd0a7dc4

Hail.

[derskinsfan]

i understand the point about 18 UDFAs and how the Steelers have a strong philosophy of how to build a winner and we don't seem to "get it." But slow down a second and breathe folks. Every year, UDFAs are signed and we almost never talk about any of them or how many of them there are until they show something on the field. Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, we're all a little too pumped up that something involving actual football is starting to happen today? Is it possible that we're making a little too much of the number of UDFAs signed?

By all accounts, it's been kind of a slow day for the Skins as far as concrete FA news... certainly not a feeding frenzy of activity, unless we choose to get off on the frenzy of rumors. Isn't that what we say we want? Sanity. Stability.

Keep cool. Let's see what happens.

[Mahons21]

I agree.

So why can't this plan change:

It can.

[The Tris]

It can.

So that was my whole point of posting the Nov 2010 quote to rebuttal your Jun 2011 quote.

What they say is not always what they do.

So while I am happy about the draft class and they are saying the right things now, I can't help but be apprehensive about who we sign come Friday.

[Mahons21]

So you eliminate five of their best players--as if a bad team should be penalized for sticking with young guys during the season to give them valuable game experience, which often leads to a bad record and lump-taking, the kind that lands you in the top 2-3 of the draft and gets many of those unheralded guys game experience?

Pettigrew and Avril are both solid starters.

I asked what players outside the first rounders they've drafted have gone on to actually do something. I don't think a team should be praised for hitting on their first round draft picks--3 of the 5 coming in the top 2 selections-- in my opinion this is to be expected. So I'm not eliminating them I'm just asking what they've done beyond what should be expected (having a successful 1st round draft choice).

Also what teams don't stick with their first round draft picks to give them playing time? We're talking about Stafford/Suh/Best/Johnson etc here obviously their first round draft choices are going to get playing time. First rounders --other than maybe WR/QB-- are expected to start and have an impact year 1, I don't think the Lions have operated differently than any other team in the NFL in this regard.

Pettigrew is another first round draft choice, Avril is a good example.

---------- Post added July-26th-2011 at 04:38 PM ----------

So that was my whole point of posting the Nov 2010 quote to rebuttal your Jun 2011 quote.

What they say is not always what they do.

So while I am happy about the draft class and they are saying the right things now, I can't help but be apprehensive about who we sign come Friday.

Oh I agree whole heartedly Tris. I put out that quote because other members felt they needed to here it straight from MS/BA's mouth to acknowledge that they were in a rebuild, my point all along has always been to watch what they do not what they say. I'm sorry I should have made that much more clear from the start.