The Fans Shift In Thinking - Or not

[Mahons21]

And that says nothing about unknowns.

Then what players were you referring to when you mentioned players that could make the team based on their performance and not their name?

---------- Post added July-26th-2011 at 12:37 PM ----------

It's happened a few times in this thread

I can't recall another instance please enlighten me.

[KDawg]

Then what players were you referring to when you mentioned players that could make the team based on their performance and not their name?

Anyone on the roster. Earn your spot. Name or no name. Role player or star. Big contract or small. You have to earn your place on this team. He did that sometimes, and other times he wanted no part of it. Casey Rabach, for example. Mike Sellers is another.

[pimpumd]

I didn't use the ground zero quote.

And yes, I do. Read the forums. I also don't believe that we ARE rebuilding.

I know you didn't use the "ground zero" quote, but you were responding to that quote. I do read the forums as well--thanks for that advice. When you say, "And yes, I do."....what are you referring to? Are you saying that Skins fans are so stupid they need to have the head coach tell them the team is devoid of talent and needs a lot of work?

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Did I say that? I pointed out one statistic. I could point out many more but I'm sure they'll be met with a sarcastic response.

Oh okay--thanks for this nugget; I should've assumed that the statistic you inserted wasn't meant to prove anything--just a random aside.

Seriously? How many Skins were on the team in 2005 that are still on the team now? How many Lions were on the DET team 2 years ago? Maybe you can see the difference in relevance...

Seriously? It was just a general example to respond to the "statistic" posted above. It seems like you're in hyper-defensive mode right now and not reading others' posts fully. Slow down. Take a deep breath. Nothing is at stake here.

Meaning you thought they would have a descent chance of taking the division title from the SB champs.

LOL--if you say so. "Challenge" within a division with the declining Vikings and mediocre Bears. Okay.

You're suggesting that DET is on the verge of becoming something I assume because you think they're going to challenge GB for the division. I'm pointing out that their #1 play-maker on offense very well might not be there any longer following next season, when you lose a piece of the pie like CJ it can have a significant negative impact and one that could easily put DET right back to where they were.

So DET's entire roster should be downplayed because its best player "might leave a year from now in FA"? Okay.

Now go ahead and have the last word--done this before w/ people in July/August and it's best to just revisit them in November or December when reality returns.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I never claimed that DET was a perfect organization, but they've been a hell of a lot better since Mayhew replaced Millen.

For all the hype they get, the Detroit Lions under Mayhew are 8-24 which is exactly a .008 improvement in winning percentage over the horrible Millen years. They SHOULD improve on that, but they haven't been a Hell of a lot of anything since Mayhew replaced Millen.

[The Tris]

Despite what has been said, I see a FO that obviously made a few mistakes at the get-go but has done fairly well in picking up the pieces of not only their mistakes but also the mistakes of previous regimes here in WSH.

I actually agree. All the more reason to not make mistakes during this tempting time.

And the rest of this thread between you and KDawg is just a rehashing of many of our old arguments, don't think I can add anything, or we will agree.

IMO, you are basically saying the fans are so stupid that they need the Redskins head coach to tell them, word-by-word, that the team is rebuilding (or "starting from ground-zero").

Yes. The average sports fan is stupid, and prioritizes moves that offer the most immediate return and gratification to themselves, ignorant of any future results.

We can't offer him much of a chance for another ring.

We can't offer him a high-powered passing game that will enhance his reputation.

Without a high-powered passing game, it's less likely to reach a goal-based incentives.

The only thing we can offer Santonio Holmes is big money...

which will bite us in the ass down the road when we want to resign our best rookie performers.

Yes.

[KDawg]

I know you didn't use the "ground zero" quote, but you were responding to that quote. I do read the forums as well--thanks for that advice. When you say, "And yes, I do."....what are you referring to? Are you saying that Skins fans are so stupid they need to have the head coach tell them the team is devoid of talent and needs a lot of work?

I think a lot of 'Skins fans (not necessarily those belonging to this forum) don't know much about the game. Which is fine. Not everyone has to study it. But they are often the vocal majority that voices their pleasures and problems with this team. They want the big name because they truly don't understand what "fit" means. And that's not unique to just the Redskins, but the fanbase has seen the Redskins do it one way for so long that the majority of fans don't know any different, so that's what they gravitate towards. I can guarantee if we don't make any big splashes alot of our fans are going to be pissed. They wanted a new jersey to purchase.

[pimpumd]

For all the hype they get, the Detroit Lions under Mayhew are 8-24 which is exactly a .008 improvement in winning percentage over the horrible Millen years. They SHOULD improve on that, but they haven't been a Hell of a lot of anything since Mayhew replaced Millen.

+1. Detroit gets a lot of praise around here. Yes, they look on paper, but let's see them perform before we start slobbering everywhere.

[Mahons21]

Oh okay--thanks for this nugget; I should've assumed that the statistic you inserted wasn't meant to prove anything--just a random aside.

One statistics proves nothing, it was simply a piece of information that should be taken into account in my opinion when saying that the DET Lions are going to challenge for their division title.

Seriously? I was just a general example to respond to the "statistic" posted above. It seems like you're in hyper-defensive mode right now and not reading others' posts fully. Slow down. Take a deep breath. Nothing is at stake here.

Hardly apples to apples..

LOL--if you say so. "Challenge" within a division with the declining Vikings and mediocre Bears. Okay.

If challenging for the title doesn't mean a team has a chance at winning it, what does it mean?

---------- Post added July-26th-2011 at 12:48 PM ----------

I actually agree. All the more reason to not make mistakes during this tempting time.

I agree completely, I think you and me are relatively on the same page aside from a few, rather key, differences. I wouldn't mind Santonio for example, but only if Moss isn't signed.

And the rest of this thread between you and KDawg is just a rehashing of many of our old arguments, don't think I can add anything, or we will agree.

Unfortunately our debate hasn't been half as interesting/though-provoking as the debate I had with you and OF. A lot of childish back and forth going on, I'll do my best to refrain from continuing it.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

For all the hype they get, the Detroit Lions under Mayhew are 8-24 which is exactly a .008 improvement in winning percentage over the horrible Millen years. They SHOULD improve on that, but they haven't been a Hell of a lot of anything since Mayhew replaced Millen.

This doesn't even begin to tell the entire story.

Mayhew inherited one of the worst franchises in pro sports.

In three seasons, they went from 0-16 to 6-10--I'd say that's a pretty decent improvement, wouldn't you?

They've improved every season since 2008.

---------- Post added July-26th-2011 at 04:53 PM ----------

Oh, and also, the team that supposedly can't challenge within the division split with the Packers last season, with the loss a 28-26 defeat @GB.

[Oldfan]

For all the hype they get, the Detroit Lions under Mayhew are 8-24 which is exactly a .008 improvement in winning percentage over the horrible Millen years. They SHOULD improve on that, but they haven't been a Hell of a lot of anything since Mayhew replaced Millen.

Mayhew has made almost all the right moves. I'd love to trade for Detroit's roster, their coach, and their GM.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

This doesn't even begin to tell the entire story.

Mayhew inherited one of the worst franchises in pro sports.

In three seasons, they went from 0-16 to 6-10--I'd say that's a pretty decent improvement, wouldn't you?

They've improved every season since 2008.

They have...and the Redskins under Turner went from 3-13 to 9-7 in two years and never really got over that hump. Showing incremental improvement for two seasons doesn't guarantee anything. Millen even took the Lions from 3 wins to 7 wins one year before sliding back down into oblivion.

I like the direction that the Lions seem to be heading, but unless they can take the next step they aren't any better than they've been for a decade. In some ways, acquiring a franchise that just went 0-16 and has mostly young players and a lot cap flexibility is a little easier than acquiring an aging team that just went 8-8. Millen probably felt compelled and pressured to hold on to parts of that playoff team he acquired while Mayhew could do whatever he wanted.

---------- Post added July-26th-2011 at 12:57 PM ----------

Mayhew has made almost all the right moves. I'd love to trade for their roster, their coach and their GM.

Mayhew has made the right moves to get them to a point where they are a 6-10 team. Hopefully (for them) he can get them over the next hump or two. Until then, he's not really successful. As a fan, I agree with you that their team would be much more exciting to follow...but we followed a young team just like that in the mid-1990s and it never turned into the contender we all assumed it might.

[pimpumd]

Yes. The average sports fan is stupid, and prioritizes moves that offer the most immediate return and gratification to themselves, ignorant of any future results.

I just don't agree with this. While the average sports fan might be stupid (your words, not mine--I haven't done the research on average Redskins fan intelligence levels), I think even a "stupid" fan could see that it was going to take a lot of work, effort, new talent, etc, from the new regime after Cerrato & company departed. We ended '08 2-6, '09 was 4-12. I think even a "stupid" fan could see how the team was trending. A quick glance at the roster at the end of '09 clearly showed a substantial lack of talent at most all positions. I guess we can just agree to disagree when it comes to the level of intellect required to determine the state of the team.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

They have...and the Redskins under Turner went from 3-13 to 9-7 in two years and never really got over that hump. Showing incremental improvement for two seasons doesn't guarantee anything. Millen even took the Lions from 3 wins to 7 wins one year before sliding back down into oblivion.

I like the direction that the Lions seem to be heading, but unless they can take the next step they aren't any better than they've been for a decade. In some ways, acquiring a franchise that just went 0-16 and has mostly young players and a lot cap flexibility is a little easier than acquiring an aging team that just went 8-8. Millen probably felt compelled and pressured to hold on to parts of that playoff team he acquired while Mayhew could do whatever he wanted.

Never said it guaranteed anything but Casserly didn't draft as well as Mayhew has the last few seasons. His drafts were mostly terrible.

[KDawg]

I just don't agree with this. While the average sports fan might be stupid (your words, not mine--I haven't done the research on average Redskins fan intelligence levels), I think even a "stupid" fan could see that it was going to take a lot of work, effort, new talent, etc, from the new regime after Cerrato & company departed. We ended '08 2-6, '09 was 4-12. I think even a "stupid" fan could see how the team was trending. A quick glance at the roster at the end of '09 clearly showed a substantial lack of talent at most all positions. I guess we can just agree to disagree when it comes to the level of intellect required to determine the state of the team.

I agree that an uneducated football fan could see the trend.

I disagree that they know how to properly build. Most uneducated fans think the big name splash is the answer to the issue at hand.

(Just for the record, that doesn't mean that if you want Santonio Holmes you're uneducated. I disagree with the need to sign him right now, however, that's preference. The uneducated fan wants Holmes, Moss, Cullen Jenkins, Brett Favre [threw that one in there for laughs], Asomugha, etc, etc, etc. all at the same time.) They want a ton of big names, not just a few that plug holes at need positions.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Never said it guaranteed anything but Casserly didn't draft as well as Mayhew has the last few seasons. His drafts were mostly terrible.

You never said it, but you implied by stating that Mayhew has done a hell of a lot better than Millen. Given that their winning percentage is almost identical, you'd have to be basing that on a projection of where you think they'll end up. All I'm saying is that we really don't know. The "next best thing" ends up not panning out in the NFL just as often as it pans out.

When it comes to the draft, how do we know yet? Suh looks ridiculously good. Beyond that though, isn't it too early to really grade the past couple drafts? I know that we missed on Westbrook and Shuler during that time, but even we didn't know that for sure after one or two years.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

You never said it, but you implied by stating that Mayhew has done a hell of a lot better than Millen. Given that their winning percentage is almost identical, you'd have to be basing that on a projection of where you think they'll end up. All I'm saying is that we really don't know. The "next best thing" ends up not panning out in the NFL just as often as it pans out.

Well, Mayhew has done a hell of a lot better than Millen--no implication, actually. Blindly tossing records in the air without considering context is shallow and superficial at best.

And I can argue the above w/ confidence without looking into a crystal ball, esp. since we're arguing about direction.

[The Tris]

I agree completely, I think you and me are relatively on the same page aside from a few, rather key, differences. I wouldn't mind Santonio for example, but only if Moss isn't signed.

If we are going to sign Santonio (which I think doesn't make sense for a number of reason), we shouldn't resign Moss as well.

Pigs are flying, as you and I have found multiple areas of common ground, and Califan007 even agreed this week.

[Mahons21]

If we are going to sign Santonio (which I think doesn't make sense for a number of reason), we shouldn't resign Moss as well.

Pigs are flying, as you and I have found multiple areas of common ground, and Califan007 even agreed this week.

I know it's been an ass backwards week, the NFL is back, you and I had one day IIRC with multiple agreements and not a single disagreement, pigs are flying and you better pack a jacket in hell.

I just can't wait to see what happens in FA, I hope Mike keeps my faith in him alive.

[The Tris]

I just don't agree with this. While the average sports fan might be stupid (your words, not mine--I haven't done the research on average Redskins fan intelligence levels), I think even a "stupid" fan could see that it was going to take a lot of work, effort, new talent, etc, from the new regime after Cerrato & company departed. We ended '08 2-6, '09 was 4-12. I think even a "stupid" fan could see how the team was trending. A quick glance at the roster at the end of '09 clearly showed a substantial lack of talent at most all positions. I guess we can just agree to disagree when it comes to the level of intellect required to determine the state of the team.

In a poll of fans on Hogs Haven (who's readership I would actually consider more informed than the average Redskins fan), this was the consesus fo what the 2011 offseason should be:

Ryan Harris, RT: 6 Years, $30 Million

Jonathan Joseph, CB: 6 Years, $72 Million

Aubrayo Franklin, NT: 4 Years, $32 Million

Davin Joseph, G, 6 years, $42 Million

Santana Moss, WR, 3 years, $16.5 Million

Rex Grossman, QB, 2 years, $8 Million

Cullen Jenkins, DE, 5 years, $42.5 Million

$243 M in contracts in one offseason. More than any single offseason under Snyder.

[Oldfan]

pimpund [39] ~ ...I think most Redskins fans were able to look at the roster that Shanahan acquired when he took over and understand that a significant amount of "rebuilding" was needed--

I think savvy Skins fans were aware of it, but most fans were not. Mike Shanahan didn’t seem to be aware of it. The trade for McNabb and the signing of some old vets signaled that Mike thought he could put a winner on the field right away.

In the thread-contest to predict the 2010 record, more than half of 300 posters predicted a winning record. Even the media was sold on a big improvement for the Skins. McNabb and Shanahan, big names, big name coach, big name QB --big improvement expected.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Well, Mayhew has done a hell of a lot better than Millen--no implication, actually. Blindly tossing records in the air without considering context is shallow and superficial at best.

And I can argue the above w/ confidence without looking into a crystal ball, esp. since we're arguing about direction.

Wins are what matters at some point, regardless of context. If the Lions continue to progress and become a 10-win team and playoff contender, then everyone's feeling that Mayhew is doing better will be confirmed. If they slide backwards and win 5 games next year, then 6, then 4 (or something similar to that), then all Mayhew has really improved upon is perception, not reality. And ultimately who really cares about that in the long run?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Never did I think I'd read the fricking Detroit Lions thrown up as an example on how to run and build a franchise on here. Even less so when, in the main to date, we're finally doing it the right way here in DC.

A fair few posters who I really respect are talking from their heart born out of utter frustration at the last two decades, whatever they'd say to the contrary; when they say they'd swap the Lions roster for ours. You'd maybe swap certain players, but there's a lot of young good been put in place here over the last 19 months that's as good pound for pound if not better as what's on Detroit's roster.

And as TD_w alluded to, until it all comes to fruition in Detroit and they become a consistent playoff team, Meyhew is doing no better a job than Allen.

Seriously, Detroit being lorded over on here. Strange, strange times indeed.

Hail.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Wins are what matters at some point, regardless of context. If the Lions continue to progress and become a 10-win team and playoff contender, then everyone's feeling that Mayhew is doing better will be confirmed. If they slide backwards and win 5 games next year, then 6, then 4 (or something similar to that), then all Mayhew has really improved upon is perception, not reality. And ultimately who really cares about that in the long run?

Then why are we even having this discussion, if everything is reduced to, "we'll have to see?"

I don't think I ever claimed to be psychic just because I believe that the Lions are primed for consistent trips to the playoffs soon.

---------- Post added July-26th-2011 at 05:59 PM ----------

Never did I think I'd read the fricking Detroit Lions thrown up as an example on how to run and build a franchise on here. Even less so when, in the main to date, we're finally doing it the right way here in DC.

A fair few posters who I really respect are talking from their heart born out of utter frustration at the last two decades, whatever they'd say to the contrary; when they say they'd swap the Lions roster for ours. You'd maybe swap certain players, but there's a lot of young good been put in place here over the last 19 months that's as good pound for pound if not better as what's on Detroit's roster.

And as TD_w alluded to, until it all comes to fruition in Detroit and they become a consistent playoff team, Meyhew is doing no better a job than Allen.

Seriously, Detroit being lorded over on here. Strange, strange times indeed.

Hail.

Considering the fact that the Redskins have made the playoffs an impressive three times since the end of Gibbs I, I don't see why it's "strange" to mention the Lions.

Also, only Redskins fans would laugh at the mentioning of the Lions in the same breath as the Skins. Fans from every other team--esp. ones with no reason to hate either squad--would take the Lions over our roster any day of the week, and twice on Sunday, but I'm sure that's just a result of media bias or hate toward the Skins that has slowly seeped into the minds of everyone who follows the NFL.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Considering the fact that the Redskins have made the playoffs an impressive three times in twenty years, I don't see why it's "strange" to mention the Lions.

Also, only Redskins fans would laugh at the mentioning of the Lions in the same breath as the Skins. Fans from every other team--esp. ones with no reason to hate either squad--would take the Lions over our roster any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

I aren't complaining at anyone banding us together with the Lions. We deserve to be classed with all the dregs of the league for nigh on two decades now.

What amuses the living piss out of me is a franchise as bad as what we've been, who's not that much further forward than we are, are being put up as an example on how to do things right. They haven't had a freeking winning season since 2000. They've won 8 games out of 48 the last 3 years. Yet their a shining example and all we've done the past 19 months lags behind in comparison?

Darn, what lofty aspirations we have.

Hail.