merge please... how would you identify Obama politically

[Baculus]

I actually tend to agree with you, but it's important to remember that "left" and "right" are somewhat subjective terms at best. In France, you'd be a conservative, and ABQCOWBOY would be a fascist.

Your first point is very true. Look at the agreement which you can find between Ron Paul supporters and progressives on the War on Terrorism, the Patriot Act, etc. Politics is a strange, complicated beast.

And yeah, the leftists in France would call me a "reactionary" for my pro-Second Amendment position.

I can always find a crowd that I'd annoy in some manner.

[nonniey]

Ok if you line up everyone presently in Congress, the Supreme Court, the President and the VP from left to right based on their politics, where would he stand in that crowd? Near the middle? I think not. He almost certianly would be within the 30-40 people from the person standing furthest left in that crowd. So yes when it comes to an American standard of Poliitcs he is far left.

[jpyaks3]

Ok if you line up everyone presently in Congress, the Supreme Court, the President and the VP from left to right based on their politics, where would he stand in that crowd? Near the middle? I think not. He almost certianly would be within the 30-40 people from the person standing furthest left in that crowd. So yes when it comes to an American standard of Poliitcs he is far left.

Care to provide anything other than how you feel? What policy of his is so leftist?

[twa]

How about his stimulus package?

Suing Arizona and others over immigration

Energy policy

[Prosperity]

Arizona's bat **** crazy, they don't count

[Baculus]

Ok if you line up everyone presently in Congress, the Supreme Court, the President and the VP from left to right based on their politics, where would he stand in that crowd? Near the middle? I think not. He almost certianly would be within the 30-40 people from the person standing furthest left in that crowd. So yes when it comes to an American standard of Poliitcs he is far left.

I've stated this before, but by any neutral party's metrics, this is not true. He doesn't support "far left" views, and his actions haven't aligned with the far left, either. I've previously asked for evidence to support this view, and all I've got is a shrug, followed by, "It's simply what I believe," which is a reply that would earn an "F" in an political science ideology course.

While ideologies are sometimes difficult to define, there are some identifiable specifics. Take economics, where government regulation and intervention isn't considered to be "radical," since most governments support a mixed economy. The same goes for universal health care, which can be found the world over. Support for either of these does not place a politician on the extreme left of any spectrum, no matter the assertion from some guy on the radio or TV.

There aren't any revolutionary leftists in Congress -- they all work within the system, this includes Bernie Sanders, probably the most left member of Congress, who is a revisionist, meaning he favors slow progress, which is also what conservative Edmund Burke favored, too: slow gradual changes which favor society without upturning it. So those on the true far left who are revolutionary would scoff at any attempt to place a man of the system, Pres. Obama; within their ranks.

It would be like telling a member of a right-wing militia that George W. Bush is one of their guys.

[nonniey]

I've stated this before, but by any neutral party's metrics, this is not true. He doesn't support "far left" views, and his actions haven't aligned with the far left, either. I've previously asked for evidence to support this view, and all I've got is a shrug, followed by, "It's simply what I believe," which is a reply that would earn an "F" in an political science ideology course.

While ideologies are sometimes difficult to define, there are some identifiable specifics. Take economics, where government regulation and intervention isn't considered to be "radical," since most governments support a mixed economy. The same goes for universal health care, which can be found the world over. Support for either of these does not place a politician on the extreme left of any spectrum, no matter the assertion from some guy on the radio or TV.

There aren't any revolutionary leftists in Congress -- they all work within the system, this includes Bernie Sanders, probably the most left member of Congress, who is a revisionist, meaning he favors slow progress, which is also what conservative Edmund Burke favored, too: slow gradual changes which favor society without upturning it. So those on the true far left who are revolutionary would scoff at any attempt to place a man of the system, Pres. Obama; within their ranks.

It would be like telling a member of a right-wing militia that George W. Bush is one of their guys.

So by your standard no one serving in Congress, the Supreme Court or the Presidency can be considered far left. And likewise no one can be considered far right? What was the point of even including those choices in the poll? I guess we can both then agree that Obama is in the far left of the Democratic Party.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I guess we can both then agree that Obama is in the far left of the Democratic Party.

Nope. Go ask any far left Dem what they think of Obama.

Trust me, they don't think he's "one of them" In fact they liken him to George Bush.

[nonniey]

Nope. Go ask any far left Dem what they think of Obama.

Trust me, they don't think he's "one of them" In fact they liken him to George Bush.

Can you name any Dem serving in Congress that they consider to be far left and if you can can you name more than 40 of them?

[NoVaO]

Can you name any Dem serving in Congress that they consider to be far left and if you can can you name more than 40 of them?

I'm not going to sit here and list out 40 Congressman, but Obama's actions put him just to the left of Congressman like Matheson (Utah) and Schuler (North Carolina), but to the right of the vast majority of Democrats serving in Congress.

There are only about 6 or 7 Democratic senators who I can put to the right of Obama as well.

[Baculus]

So by your standard no one serving in Congress, the Supreme Court or the Presidency can be considered far left.

I never said that, but you have to remember we're talking about Obama, and by no means is he on the far political left. He is a reformer, a revisionist, who tend to be non-radicalized. And yes, there are some people in Congress who left-of-left-of-center, but Obama ain't one of them, and neither is anyone on the Supreme Court. The most left members of Congress are probably in the House.

The problem is that to talk radio, anyone who is basically to the left of them is a "communist" or "far left," which is hyperbolic and disconnected from reality, Heck, many people who are a liberal, moderate, or progressive Republican, some of whom are right-of-center, have been accused of being "socialist." It's the new Red Scare. Glenn Beck is a perfect example of this ideological fear mongering.

A well-regulated capitalist system is not revolutionary, and that is what most liberals and anyone on the Congressional left supports. In fact, revolutionaries considered that to be a betrayal of their ideology.

And likewise no one can be considered far right?

Never said that either, but there are some pretty right-wing politicians in Congress, to which some will willingly admit to that, especially in this day and age when the GOP have been pushed to the right. Even former moderates have now been pressured to assume a right-of-right-of-center stance.

What was the point of even including those choices in the poll? I guess we can both then agree that Obama is in the far left of the Democratic Party.

To see what people think. But, no, we cannot agree at all that "Obama is in the far left of the Democratic Party," because he isn't. Haven't you been paying attention?

Round hole, square peg.

---------- Post added July-17th-2011 at 09:22 PM ----------

Can you name any Dem serving in Congress that they consider to be far left and if you can can you name more than 40 of them?

Many people on the far left are generally outside of the mainstream political system (similar to many on the far right, too). Go to an anarchist website and you will notice they don't hold Obama or his party's politics in a very positive light. I know this first hand -- my nephew is an anarchist, he has marched with the Black Bloc, and he was even arrested protesting at the Democratic National Convention in Denver.

]

Ok if you line up everyone presently in Congress, the Supreme Court, the President and the VP from left to right based on their politics, where would he stand in that crowd? Near the middle? I think not. He almost certianly would be within the 30-40 people from the person standing furthest left in that crowd. So yes when it comes to an American standard of Poliitcs he is far left.

He would certainly be near the middle, by virtues of his policies.

[twa]

He would certainly be near the middle, by virtues of his policies.

:evilg: ...a slightly different view :beatdeadhorse:

"And I’m saying it bluntly, that this administration is the greatest wet blanket to business, and progress and job creation in my lifetime. And I can prove it and I could spend the next 3 hours giving you examples of all of us in this market place that are frightened to death about all the new regulations, our healthcare costs escalate, regulations coming from left and right. A President that seems, that keeps using that word redistribution. Well, my customers and the companies that provide the vitality for the hospitality and restaurant industry, in the United States of America, they are frightened of this administration.And it makes you slow down and not invest your money. Everybody complains about how much money is on the side in America.

You bet and until we change the tempo and the conversation from Washington, it’s not going to change. And those of us who have business opportunities and the capital to do it are going to sit in fear of the President. And a lot of people don’t want to say that. They’ll say, God, don’t be attacking Obama. Well, this is Obama’s deal and it’s Obama that’s responsible for this fear in America.

The guy keeps making speeches about redistribution and maybe we ought to do something to businesses that don’t invest, their holding too much money. We haven’t heard that kind of talk except from pure socialists. Everybody’s afraid of the government and there’s no need soft peddling it, it’s the truth. It is the truth. And that’s true of Democratic businessman and Republican businessman, and I am a Democratic businessman and I support Harry Reid. I support Democrats and Republicans. And I’m telling you that the business community in this company is frightened to death of the weird political philosophy of the President of the United States. And until he’s gone, everybody’s going to be sitting on their thumbs." Steve Wynn, CEO of Wynn Resorts

http://wizbangblog.com/2011/07/18/this-administration-is-the-greatest-wet-blanket-to-business-and-progress-and-job-creation-in-my-lifetime/

[Jumbo]

I can understand many of twa's stated concerns here, and think that much of the criticism in this post as directed at the current admin is fair enough. I also think business/corporate interests have been very damaging to our society overall and the nation's financial well-being, acknowledging the assisting/building aspects while still noting the debilitating/harming (sometimes "raping" would be the better term) aspects. And that's a dynamic shared with government institutions including military/defense. It's going to be hell to sort it all out and get such institution, private and public, into a healthy balance if such is even possible.

It all reflects why talk/argument/animus over left/right ideological differences pales in importance (and is actually a big part of the cluster****) compared to focusing on easily identified and shared principles/traits like honesty, integrity, competence, justice, selfless service, genuine compromise, and sincere regard for the best results for the greatest number. Acting within classic principles, values, and displaying traits universally (or close) held in high esteem across time and cultures are the smart topical focus of discussion and debate, then followed by the same on technique or actual style of intervention/action to be taken---not constantly pursuing partisan ideological debate (usually full of self-contradiction and outright hypocrisy anyway) and indulging lock-step jingoism centered around the shell-game that one side has inherently "superior" philosophical/ethical/moral components than the other side.

[Baculus]

:evilg: ...a slightly different view :beatdeadhorse:

Twa -- next time, use quotes. I just spent time responding to your post, thinking it was your views, when it was really from this this right-winger casino owner. Some posting etiquette would be appreciated.

This conservative casino owner represents the sort of knee-jerk "OMB TEH SOCIALIZMS!!!11!!" stuff that I earlier described in this thread. The debt ceiling was raised a half-dozen times under Bush, where the debt was doubled under his administration. But now, with Obama in charge, it's suddenly different, for no good reason. I don't think, by any means, is this CEO a good judge of ideologies.

[Thinking Skins]

Obama is too cool for his own good. I think he'd be a better president if he looked like a putz more often. But you can't have that stride of his and think people are going to negotiate with him on a level ground. Nah, that stride gives him a leg up and it hurts him because people want him to be as miserable as them. Kinda sad.

[twa]

Twa -- next time, use quotes. I just spent time responding to your post, thinking it was your views, when it was really from this this right-winger casino owner. Some posting etiquette would be appreciated.

This conservative casino owner represents the sort of knee-jerk "OMB TEH SOCIALIZMS!!!11!!" stuff that I earlier described in this thread. The debt ceiling was raised a half-dozen times under Bush, where the debt was doubled under his administration. But now, with Obama in charge, it's suddenly different, for no good reason. I don't think, by any means, is this CEO a good judge of ideologies.

Oops, Mea Culpa .....though the absence of a single ya'll shoulda been a clue

didn't see him mention the debt ceiling anywhere

right winger that supports Reed?.....damn we do speak different languages

add

fixed ....but since I agree with everything he said ya can retype it.

[peajay2166]

I think he is dead center between the right and left butt cheeks