Should we have just carpet bombed Afghanistan?

[ardowling]

lol your funny

United States (47.085)

United Kingdom (9.500)

Germany (4.415)

France (3.750)

Italy (3.150)

Canada (2.830)

Poland (1.955)

Netherlands (1.940)

Australia (1.550)

Spain (1.070)

Denmark (750)

yes very involved.

Again, who's laughing??? Many of those countries have lost Soldiers, and yet you set your fatass on the sofa. How involved are you chicken****? Time to man up *****.

[21cents]

Again, who's laughing??? Many of those countries have lost Soldiers, and yet you set your fatass on the sofa. How involved are you chicken****? Time to man up *****.

your funny, come visit me in fairfax jiu jitsu so i can whoop that old ass of yours.

[Mad Mike]

We should have not went to war in the first place.

This was pretty much a epic fail war for us. We are fighting a guy we put weapons on his hands and gave him power. We are now fighting against a american born white convert muslim who right now takes care of all the operations.Adam Gadahn.

talk about epic fail

Talk about an epic fail. Your post is an epic fail. You don't have a single fact right.

We did not in any way shape or form put weapons in bin Laden's hands. Nor did we give him any power. bin Laden went to Afghanistan on his own to fight the soviets. He used his own money. He formed his own group of Arab fighters which we never had any contact with. He paid for his own weapons and manpower. He met Ayman Al Zawahiri, then leader of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad which was in part supported by Saddam Hussien. Together they later formed al Qaeda. Those are the FACTS.

What do YOU think we should have done in response to 9/11?

And Adam Gadahn.... is a mouth piece He does not "take care" of ANY operations. :doh:

And as a refresher on Iraq. Which absolutely was a success however difficult and painful it was.

From documents captured in Iraq:

Iraqi Perspectives Project. Saddam and Terrorism: Emerging Insights from Captured Iraqi

Documents. Volume 1 (Redacted)

Pentagon_Report_V1.pdf

INSTITUTE FOR DEFENSE ANALYSES

Joint Advanced Warfighting Program

Kevin M. Woods, Project Leader

with James Lacey

The Iraqi Perspectives Project. In September 2003 the Commander,

United States Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM), asked the Joint Advanced

Warfighting Program (JAWP) at the Institute for Defense Analyses (IDA)

to help develop the operational and strategic lessons from OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM

(OIF) from the perspectives of former senior Iraqi decision-makers. By creating

a historical narrative of the events surrounding OIF, interviewing captured

prisoners, and reviewing translations of enemy documents and media archives,

IDA researchers were able to report on the inner workings-and sometimes delusional

behavior en masse-of the Saddam Hussein regime.

For this paper, the JAWP Iraqi Perspectives Project (IPP) research

team screened more than 600,000 original captured documents I and several thousand

hours of audio and video footage archived in a US Department of Defense

(DOD) database called Harmony.

Abstract

Captured Iraqi documents have uncovered evidence that links the regime of Saddam Hussein to regional and global terrorism, including a variety of revolutionary, liberation, nationalist, and Islamic terrorist organizations. While these documents do not reveal direct coordination and assistance between the Saddam regime and the al Qaeda network, they do indicate that Saddam was willing to use, albeit cautiously, operatives affiliated with al Qaeda as long as Saddam could have these terrorist–operatives monitored closely. Because Saddam’s security organizations and Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network operated with similar aims (at least in the short term), considerable overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the same outside groups. This created both the appearance of and, in some ways, a “de facto” link between the organizations. At times, these organizations would work together in pursuit of shared goals but still maintain their autonomy and independence because of innate caution and mutual distrust. Though the execution of Iraqi terror plots was not always successful, evidence shows that Saddam’s use of terrorist tactics and his support for terrorist groups remained strong up until the

collapse of the regime.

_______________________________

Quotes....

_______________________________

Iraq was a long-standing supporter of international terrorism. The existence

of a memorandum (Extract 10) from the lIS to Saddam, written a decade

before OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM, provides detailed evidence of that support.

Several of the organizations listed in this memorandum were designated as international

terrorist organizations by the US Department of State. 31

We list herein the organizations that our agency [iIS] cooperates with and

have relations with various elements in many parts of the Arab world and

who also have the expertise to carry out assignments indicated in the above

directive [the cited directive has not been discovered yet].

Fatah - Revolutionary Council (Abu-Nidal's Organization)

Established in 1973 after a split with the Fatah organization. [LJed by Sabri

al-Bana who used to be head of the Fatah office in Baghdad. The organization's

political beliefs are based on violence and assassinations. We

have been in contact with the organization since 1973 and have provided

financial and logistical support, such as vehicles. They have members in

many Arab countries, but we did not assign them any operations in the war

[1991] despite their willingness to assist.

Palestine Liberation Front

Established in 1983 by Abu aI-Abbas. Currently has an office in Baghdad.

They were assigned and carried out commando operations for us against

American interests in the [1991] war.

Force 17

Security agency specializing in operations inside the occupied territories

(Palestine). We have good relations with them and they maintain an office

in Baghdad. They were not assigned to conduct any commando operations

during the war; nevertheless, they were assigned to collect intelligence

information and they provided valuable information.

Renewal and Jihad Organization

Secret Islamic Palestinian Organization established after the war. It believes

in armed jihad against the Americans and Western interests. They

also believe our leader [saddam Hussein], may God protect him, is the true

leader in the war against the infidels. The organization's leaders live in

Jordan... when they visited Iraq two months ago they demonstrated a willingness

to carry out operations against American interests at any time.

The Palestinian Abd al-Bari al-Duwaik (aka Abu Dawoud)

Was a representative of the Popular Front organization-abroad operations.

He currently lives in Cyprus, and he was assigned to carry out a

number of commando operations during the [1991] war which he did. Our

relationship with him is outstanding and we can benefit by him carrying

out operations for us.

Islamic Jihad Organization [Egyptian Islamic Jihad]

In a meeting in the Sudan we agreed to renew our relations with the Islamic

Jihad Organization in Egypt. Our information on the group is as follows:

It was established in 1979. Its goal is to apply the Islamic shari' a law and establish Islamic

rule. It is considered one of the most brutal Egyptian organizations. It

carried out numerous successful operations, including the assassination

of Sadat. We have previously met with the organization's representative and

we agreed on a plan to carry out commando operations against the

Egyptian regime.

(My Note: Ayman al-Zawahiri is a prominent leader of al-Qaeda, and was the second and last "emir" of Egyptian Islamic Jihad. In 1998 al-Zawahiri formally merged Egyptian Islamic Jihad into al-Qaeda. According to reports by a former al-Qaeda member, he has worked in the al-Qaeda organization since its inception and was a senior member of the group's shura council. He is often described as a "lieutenant" to Osama bin Laden, though bin Laden's chosen biographer has referred to him as the "real brains" of al-Qaeda.)

Islamic Ulama Group - Islamic Scholars Group

It was established in 1948 and is very influential in large areas of Pakistan,

especially in the northern districts. They rely on financial support from

Iraq and Libya. The party is led by Ahmad Nu'mani. He has strong relations

with our agency since 1981 and is ready to carry out any assignment

we task him with.

The Afghani Islamic Party

It was founded in 1974 when its leader [Gulbuddin Hekmatyar] escaped

from Afghanistan to Pakistan. It is considered one of the extreme political

religious movements against the West, and one of the strongest Sunni parties

in Afghanistan. The organization relies on financial support from Iraq

and we have had good relations with Hikmatyar since 1989

Jam'iyat Ulama Pakistan - Pakistan Scholars Group

Established in 1970, its goals are religious and political reform. It is well

known in Pakistan and well into India. The organization maintains offices

in England and Holland.

Our agency has had relations with them since 1987. They were not tasked

with commando operations during the war, but were tasked to undertake

protest demonstrations against American aggression in several countries.

They did undertake activities for this purpose. 32

_______________________________

Captured Iraqi archives reveal that Saddam was training Arab fighters (non-Iraqi) in Iraqi training camps more than a decade prior to OPERATION DESERT STORM (1991). A Saddam memorandum directed the IIS to submit a list of foreign nationals who were trained in Iraq and carried out operations during the 1991 war against the United States. 33 In response,

the IIS sent a list of one-hundred names of foreign national fighters, categorized by country

-----------------------------------

Two other memoranda in this folder are from Saddam through his Presidential Secretary to a member of the Revolutionary Council and to the IIS Director, respectively.

• In the first, from January 1993, and coinciding with the start of the US

humanitarian intervention in Somalia, the Presidential Secretary informed

the council member of Saddam's decision to "form a group to

start hunting Americans present on Arab soil; especially Somalia."

• In the second memorandum, Saddam orders the IIS Director to revise a

plan the IIS director had previously forwarded to include setting up

operations inside Somalia.44 The overlap between bin Laden's and

Saddam's interests in Somalia provides a tactical example of the parallel

between Iraq and radical Islam: at the same time Saddam was ordering action in Somalia aimed at the American presence, Osama bin Laden was doing the same thing.

___________________________

Iraq and Iran were not the only states that wanted to use Palestinian

terrorist organizations for their own purposes. For Saddam, these groups were often

the means toward a common end and a tool to influence or manipulate an ally.

One such example was a Palestinian Liberation Front leader, Abu aI-Abbas who

lived in Iraq under Saddam's protection. He originally fled to Iraq to avoid an Italian

warrant imposing five life terms for his part in the 1985 hijacking of the Italian

cruise liner Achille Lauro and the murder of an American citizen. 66 Abu alAbbas

was captured later by US forces as they entered Baghdad in April 2003. 67

While in Iraq, Abbas often traveled to Gaza and reported back to

Saddam on the conditions of the Palestinians and the various terrorist organizations

there. In one note, he asks for Saddam's help in developing methods for the

Palestinians to infiltrate Israeli military and security operations in order to "analyze

the weak points in the enemy structure so as to select potential targets and

our future hits.,,7

__________________________

Other documents show Saddam's terror organizations could be

deadly. They were willing to target not only Western interests but also to directly

attack Americans. Uday Hussein reports to his father the results of one such terrorist

strike that specifically targeted American aid workers with the UN

_________________________

When attacking Western interests, the competitive terror cartel

came into play, particularly in the late 1990s. Captured documents reveal that the

regime was willing to co-opt or support organizations it knew to be part of al

Qaeda-as long as that organization's near-term goals supported Saddam's longterm

vision. A directive (Extract 24) from the Director for International Intelligence

in the IIS to an Iraqi operative in Bahrain orders him to investigate a particular

terrorist group there, The Army of Muhammad.

"[July 2001]

We have learned of a group calling themselves The Army ofMuhammad... has

threatened Kuwaiti authorities and plans to attack American and Western interests

...We need detailed information about this group, their activities, their objectives,

and their most distinguished leaders. We need to know [to] whom

they belong to and with whom they are connected. Give this subject your ut-

. 82 most attentIon."

"Information available to us is that the group is under the wings of bin

Laden. They receive their directions from Yemen. Their objectives are the

. 83 same as bIll Laden..."

A later note84 lists the group's objectives, among them:

• Jihad in the name of God.

• Striking the embassies and other Jewish and American interests anywhere in the world.

• Attacking the American and British military bases in the Arab land.

• Striking American embassies and interests unless the Americans pull out their forces from the Arab lands and discontinue their support for Israel.

• Disrupting oil exports [to] the Americans from Arab countries and

threatening tankers carrying oil to them.

A later memorandum from the same collection85 to the Director of the IIS reports that the Army of Muhammad is endeavoring to receive assistance [from Iraq] to implement its objectives, and that the local IIS station has been told to deal with them in accordance with priorities previously established. The IIS agent goes on to inform the Director that "this organization is an offshoot of bin Laden, but that their objectives are similar but with different names that can be a way of camouflaging the organization."

_____________________________

You can read the full report here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/iraqi/index.html

[ardowling]

your funny, come visit me in fairfax jiu jitsu so i can whoop that old ass of yours.

See again, you don't get it, I won't do any what jitsu **** with you (which I take as a threat) I will just shoot you in the face and watch you bleed out....(sucks being you) Oh well.

---------- Post added April-23rd-2011 at 10:56 PM ----------

MM right on. Thanks

[Mad Mike]

your funny, come visit me in fairfax jiu jitsu so i can whoop that old ass of yours.

Oh, we have a real winner here. :doh:

BTW, It's you're. Education is a wonderful thing.

[21cents]

This war represents an epic failure, a national embarrassment and a moral blight on our nation. . . . So i can’t think of anything more patronizing than to tell [Americans] not to worry their pretty little heads about the war, that us grown-ups in Washington have it all taken care of.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/congresswoman-afghanistan-war-is-an-epic-failure-a-national-embarrassment/

The US never achieved anything. We went in there to scour the country for resources and prevent a pipeline to China being built. There is NO evidence whatsoever that shows that any of these people were involved in attacks. Also, 95% of the country don't even know about 9/11. How messed up is that? The opium? Where do you think the drug surge in Mexico came from? Otherwise wouldn't the US be doing more to keep their borders "safe"? Also Karzai is corrupt because we put him there. Do you know that Karzai was/is a part of the Northern Alliance which is opposed to the Taliban. The Taliban still control 70% of the country. The Pashtun (ethnic group) tribes elders are being bribed not to fight us; the moment we run out of the green stuff, these guys are going to wipe out any and every Nato/US personnel there. The Taliban in Afghanistan is composed up of a very small portion of the populace. And even then we can't handle them! We're keeping the region destabilized to prevent the Chinese from gaining a steady access to oil. Why do you think countries like Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Algeria, Sudan etc. are coincidentally at the same time, facing "internal" problems. And the fact that you have nut jobs like Brezinski and Mullen going on about military intervention and junk makes it even worse. Don't be skeptical regarding this kind of thing. I used to be too, but when I saw all these places and met the people, I realized how ignorant my assumptions were. Its no surprise that people who still have the same assumptions watch garbage like CNN, FOX, MSNBC,etc. or read the New York Times and Washington Post. Sorry for going on a rant; long story short, the war was a failure the moment we decided to go in there. The people there have held their own against the Greeks, the Mongols, the British and more recently the Soviets.

[ardowling]

Sigh...I just don't know what to say. Your world must really suck.

[Mad Mike]

We went in there to scour the country for resources and prevent a pipeline to China being built.

Michael Moore, is that you?

Seriously dude. You're an idiot. I have no more time for you. :doh:

[21cents]

See again, you don't get it, I won't do any what jitsu **** with you (which I take as a threat) I will just shoot you in the face and watch you bleed out....(sucks being you) Oh well.

---------- Post added April-23rd-2011 at 10:56 PM ----------

MM right on. Thanks

you have issues man :/ , whats up with you shooting at anything and everything?

i wont be suprised if i ever see you in a article like this http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327

[visionary]

I'm thinking personal threats, not a good idea, guys.

[ardowling]

you have issues man :/ , whats up with you shooting at anything and everything?

i wont be suprised if i ever see you in a article like this http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327

Actually, I'm pretty peaceful, however If you are a threat me or my family I will kill you and will not have any reservations about it. You said you would kick my ass I take that as a threat to my life if you want to play as billy badass get ready for the results.

[21cents]

Actually, I'm pretty peaceful, however If you are a threat me or my family I will kill you and will not have any reservations about it. You said you would kick my ass I take that as a threat to my life if you want to play as billy badass get ready for the results.

In terms of going on a one on one wrestling match or something. I have no intention of harming anyone. If i did i dont think i will be against wars.

[ardowling]

Were done. Oh, by the way Gina Carano is a hottie:)

[The 12th Commandment]

And to think, you actually had to edit that at least once to get it just right... :pfft:

I think my non edit post rate is about 1 in 10.

So I can edit this one: Lighten up with the personal **** Francisis'

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Two quick things before I get out of this thread:

Carpet bombing is a horrible idea. What exactly are you carpet bombing? How well did that work in Vietnam? What is going to be the reaction of the next generation in the Middle East? Don't think carpet bombing Afghanistan would have done much for hearts and minds elsewhere. You know, like where al Qaeda members actually come from. The world's got a great thing going with this Arab Awakening (or w/e you want to call it.) I don't think it's a coincidence that it's occuring immediately after we toned down our presence in the reigon.

Two, totally disagree with Mad Mike about Iraq. (Not getting into a debate though. Been there, done that, seen it; for years now on this site.)

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

The US never achieved anything. We went in there to scour the country for resources and prevent a pipeline to China being built. There is NO evidence whatsoever that shows that any of these people were involved in attacks

you really shouldnt trust those desi news channels man....its full of propaganda and false accusations. Look at the Siddiqui case for example

[twa]

Toned down our presence?

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Toned down our presence?

How is that funny?

[twa]

We have a larger presence than ever ...as well as more involved

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

We have a larger presence than ever ...as well as more involved

Didn't realize it started with Libya. My bad.

Or that Afghanistan was an Arab country.

[twa]

I shouldn't have laughed,but our presence in the Middle East(including Arab lands) is higher than ever.....it's a secret

[Mad Mike]

totally disagree with Mad Mike about Iraq. (Not getting into a debate though. Been there, done that, seen it; for years now on this site.)

OK lets skip past Saddam's long history of supporting terrorism. Let's look at the impact of a democratic Iraq on the current situation in the middle east.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/iraq/bush_2-26.html

THE PRESIDENT (Bush): Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm proud to be with the scholars, and the friends, and the supporters of the American Enterprise Institute. I want to thank you for overlooking my dress code violation. (Laughter.) They were about to stop me at the door, but Irving Kristol said, "I know this guy, let him in." (Laughter.)

Chris, thank you for your very kind introduction, and thank you for your leadership. I see many distinguished guests here tonight -- members of my Cabinet, members of Congress, Justice Scalia, Justice Thomas, and so many respected writers and policy experts. I'm always happy to see your Senior Fellow, Dr. Lynne Cheney. (Applause.) Lynne is a wise and thoughtful commentator on history and culture, and a dear friend to Laura and me. I'm also familiar with the good work of her husband -- (laughter.) You may remember him, the former director of my vice presidential search committee. (Laughter.) Thank God Dick Cheney said yes. (Applause.)

Thanks for fitting me into the program tonight. I know I'm not the featured speaker. I'm just a warm-up act for Allan Meltzer. But I want to congratulate Dr. Meltzer for a lifetime of achievement, and for tonight's well-deserved honor. Congratulations. (Applause.)

At the American Enterprise Institute, some of the finest minds in our nation are at work on some of the greatest challenges to our nation. You do such good work that my administration has borrowed 20 such minds. I want to thank them for their service, but I also want to remind people that for 60 years, AEI scholars have made vital contributions to our country and to our government, and we are grateful for those contributions.

We meet here during a crucial period in the history of our nation, and of the civilized world. Part of that history was written by others; the rest will be written by us. (Applause.) On a September morning, threats that had gathered for years, in secret and far away, led to murder in our country on a massive scale. As a result, we must look at security in a new way, because our country is a battlefield in the first war of the 21st century.

We learned a lesson: The dangers of our time must be confronted actively and forcefully, before we see them again in our skies and in our cities. And we set a goal: we will not allow the triumph of hatred and violence in the affairs of men. (Applause.)

Our coalition of more than 90 countries is pursuing the networks of terror with every tool of law enforcement and with military power. We have arrested, or otherwise dealt with, many key commanders of al-Qaida. (Applause.) Across the world, we are hunting down the killers one by one. We are winning. And we're showing them the definition of American justice. (Applause.) And we are opposing the greatest danger in the war on terror: outlaw regimes arming with weapons of mass destruction.

In Iraq, a dictator is building and hiding weapons that could enable him to dominate the Middle East and intimidate the civilized world -- and we will not allow it. (Applause.) This same tyrant has close ties to terrorist organizations, and could supply them with the terrible means to strike this country -- and America will not permit it. The danger posed by Saddam Hussein and his weapons cannot be ignored or wished away. The danger must be confronted. We hope that the Iraqi regime will meet the demands of the United Nations and disarm, fully and peacefully. If it does not, we are prepared to disarm Iraq by force. Either way, this danger will be removed. (Applause.)

The safety of the American people depends on ending this direct and growing threat. Acting against the danger will also contribute greatly to the long-term safety and stability of our world. The current Iraqi regime has shown the power of tyranny to spread discord and violence in the Middle East. A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. America's interests in security, and America's belief in liberty, both lead in the same direction: to a free and peaceful Iraq. (Applause.)

The first to benefit from a free Iraq would be the Iraqi people, themselves. Today they live in scarcity and fear, under a dictator who has brought them nothing but war, and misery, and torture. Their lives and their freedom matter little to Saddam Hussein -- but Iraqi lives and freedom matter greatly to us. (Applause.)

Bringing stability and unity to a free Iraq will not be easy. Yet that is no excuse to leave the Iraqi regime's torture chambers and poison labs in operation. Any future the Iraqi people choose for themselves will be better than the nightmare world that Saddam Hussein has chosen for them. (Applause.)

If we must use force, the United States and our coalition stand ready to help the citizens of a liberated Iraq. We will deliver medicine to the sick, and we are now moving into place nearly 3 million emergency rations to feed the hungry.

We'll make sure that Iraq's 55,000 food distribution sites, operating under the Oil For Food program, are stocked and open as soon as possible. The United States and Great Britain are providing tens of millions of dollars to the U.N. High Commission on Refugees, and to such groups as the World Food Program and UNICEF, to provide emergency aid to the Iraqi people.

We will also lead in carrying out the urgent and dangerous work of destroying chemical and biological weapons. We will provide security against those who try to spread chaos, or settle scores, or threaten the territorial integrity of Iraq. We will seek to protect Iraq's natural resources from sabotage by a dying regime, and ensure those resources are used for the benefit of the owners -- the Iraqi people. (Applause.)

The United States has no intention of determining the precise form of Iraq's new government. That choice belongs to the Iraqi people. Yet, we will ensure that one brutal dictator is not replaced by another. All Iraqis must have a voice in the new government, and all citizens must have their rights protected. (Applause.)

Rebuilding Iraq will require a sustained commitment from many nations, including our own: we will remain in Iraq as long as necessary, and not a day more. America has made and kept this kind of commitment before -- in the peace that followed a world war. After defeating enemies, we did not leave behind occupying armies, we left constitutions and parliaments. We established an atmosphere of safety, in which responsible, reform-minded local leaders could build lasting institutions of freedom. In societies that once bred fascism and militarism, liberty found a permanent home.

There was a time when many said that the cultures of Japan and Germany were incapable of sustaining democratic values. Well, they were wrong. Some say the same of Iraq today. They are mistaken. (Applause.) The nation of Iraq -- with its proud heritage, abundant resources and skilled and educated people -- is fully capable of moving toward democracy and living in freedom. (Applause.)

The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the "freedom gap" so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times. Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater politics participation, economic openness, and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward politics reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region. (Applause.)

It is presumptuous and insulting to suggest that a whole region of the world -- or the one-fifth of humanity that is Muslim -- is somehow untouched by the most basic aspirations of life. Human cultures can be vastly different. Yet the human heart desires the same good things, everywhere on Earth. In our desire to be safe from brutal and bullying oppression, human beings are the same. In our desire to care for our children and give them a better life, we are the same. For these fundamental reasons, freedom and democracy will always and everywhere have greater appeal than the slogans of hatred and the tactics of terror. (Applause.)

Success in Iraq could also begin a new stage for Middle Eastern peace, and set in motion progress towards a truly democratic Palestinian state. (Applause.) The passing of Saddam Hussein's regime will deprive terrorist networks of a wealthy patron that pays for terrorist training, and offers rewards to families of suicide bombers. And other regimes will be given a clear warning that support for terror will not be tolerated. (Applause.)

Without this outside support for terrorism, Palestinians who are working for reform and long for democracy will be in a better position to choose new leaders. (Applause.) True leaders who strive for peace; true leaders who faithfully serve the people. A Palestinian state must be a reformed and peaceful state that abandons forever the use of terror. (Applause.)

For its part, the new government of Israel -- as the terror threat is removed and security improves -- will be expected to support the creation of a viable Palestinian state -- (applause) -- and to work as quickly as possible toward a final status agreement. As progress is made toward peace, settlement activity in the occupied territories must end. (Applause.) And the Arab states will be expected to meet their responsibilities to oppose terrorism, to support the emergence of a peaceful and democratic Palestine, and state clearly they will live in peace with Israel. (Applause.)

The United States and other nations are working on a road map for peace. We are setting out the necessary conditions for progress toward the goal of two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. It is the commitment of our government -- and my personal commitment -- to implement the road map and to reach that goal. Old patterns of conflict in the Middle East can be broken, if all concerned will let go of bitterness, hatred, and violence, and get on with the serious work of economic development, and political reform, and reconciliation. America will seize every opportunity in pursuit of peace. And the end of the present regime in Iraq would create such an opportunity. (Applause.)

In confronting Iraq, the United States is also showing our commitment to effective international institutions. We are a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council. We helped to create the Security Council. We believe in the Security Council -- so much that we want its words to have meaning. (Applause.)

The global threat of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction cannot be confronted by one nation alone. The world needs today and will need tomorrow international bodies with the authority and the will to stop the spread of terror and chemical and biological and nuclear weapons. A threat to all must be answered by all. High-minded pronouncements against proliferation mean little unless the strongest nations are willing to stand behind them -- and use force if necessary. After all, the United Nations was created, as Winston Churchill said, to "make sure that the force of right will, in the ultimate issue, be protected by the right of force."

Another resolution is now before the Security Council. If the council responds to Iraq's defiance with more excuses and delays, if all its authority proves to be empty, the United Nations will be severely weakened as a source of stability and order. If the members rise to this moment, then the Council will fulfill its founding purpose.

I've listened carefully, as people and leaders around the world have made known their desire for peace. All of us want peace. The threat to peace does not come from those who seek to enforce the just demands of the civilized world; the threat to peace comes from those who flout those demands. If we have to act, we will act to restrain the violent, and defend the cause of peace. And by acting, we will signal to outlaw regimes that in this new century, the boundaries of civilized behavior will be respected. (Applause.)

Protecting those boundaries carries a cost. If war is forced upon us by Iraq's refusal to disarm, we will meet an enemy who hides his military forces behind civilians, who has terrible weapons, who is capable of any crime. The dangers are real, as our soldiers, and sailors, airmen, and Marines fully understand. Yet, no military has ever been better prepared to meet these challenges.

Members of our Armed Forces also understand why they may be called to fight. They know that retreat before a dictator guarantees even greater sacrifices in the future. They know that America's cause is right and just: liberty for an oppressed people, and security for the American people. And I know something about these men and women who wear our uniform: they will complete every mission they are given with skill, and honor, and courage. (Applause.)

Much is asked of America in this year 2003. The work ahead is demanding. It will be difficult to help freedom take hold in a country that has known three decades of dictatorship, secret police, internal divisions, and war. It will be difficult to cultivate liberty and peace in the Middle East, after so many generations of strife. Yet, the security of our nation and the hope of millions depend on us, and Americans do not turn away from duties because they are hard. We have met great tests in other times, and we will meet the tests of our time. (Applause.)

We go forward with confidence, because we trust in the power of human freedom to change lives and nations. By the resolve and purpose of America, and of our friends and allies, we will make this an age of progress and liberty. Free people will set the course of history, and free people will keep the peace of the world.

Thank you all, very much. (Applause.)

[Hubbs]

There was tremendous success in Iraqi freedom..... Saddam Hussein is not only gone but most importantly men and women have the freedom to vote!!!!......Thats Tremendous success

the biggest reason for not claiming greater victory is politics .......

who in the world of politics or the media is going say Bush did good with Iraqi freedom

So let's go invade Syria. And Iran. And Cuba. And North Korea. And China. And Sudan. And Myanmar. And Chad. And keep right on going....

The ultimate reason for acting was given in the name by those that acted... Operation Iraqi freedom.... regime change was also a popular theme....... so let's not pretend that there has not been major accomplishments towards the ultimate goal of operation Iraqi freedom.......

desperately named the Iraq war by those not supporting freedom for this region.......

You can't possibly be serious.

Spanish-American War

World War I

World War II

Korean War

Vietnam War

Gulf War

War on Terrorism

Notice a pattern?

(And please, spare me the pointless side argument about how we officially designate Korea and Vietnam as "conflicts." That has nothing to do with "desperately naming" them something else, it's a constitutional thing.)

Hubbs, check out "Ghost Wars" by Steve Coll. It covers Afghanistan/Pakistan from the Soviet invasion to 9/11. Really good read (not too dry) and beyond informative. SHF recommended it to me a few years back and I'm so happy he did.

Interesting. I'll check it out.

[cedk]

So let's go invade Syria. And Iran. And Cuba. And North Korea. And China. And Sudan. And Myanmar. And Chad. And keep right on going....

.

I never said let's go invade countries that do not allow the freedom to vote.(where busy and broke)

Neither did I mean to say we invaded Iraq because they could not vote... But the goal was regime change and establishing some sort of democracy ....(freedom to vote)

just pointing out that Bush chose a much more humane conclusion in Iraqi freedom....

whereas much of the world was prepared to give sanctions and just leave the area to rot once again....

　

As the world continues to evolve the freedom to vote will eventually be the staple of all countries. Once the freedom to vote is established in all countries major wars would cease in my opinion.. it has been going on for thousands of years....

The freedom of the people to vote is part of the American international agenda.... even now France is leading the way in Libya with hope of establishing this fundamental freedom....

　

　

[21cents]

I never said let's go invade countries that do not allow the freedom to vote.(where busy and broke)

Neither did I mean to say we invaded Iraq because they could not vote... But the goal was regime change and establishing some sort of democracy ....(freedom to vote)

just pointing out that Bush chose a much more humane conclusion in Iraqi freedom....

whereas much of the world was prepared to give sanctions and just leave the area to rot once again....

　

As the world continues to evolve the freedom to vote will eventually be the staple of all countries. Once the freedom to vote is established in all countries major wars would cease in my opinion.. it has been going on for thousands of years....

The freedom of the people to vote is part of the American international agenda.... even now France is leading the way in Libya with hope of establishing this fundamental freedom....

　

　

Do you hear yourself talk?

your telling me saint bush went to war in iraq to help the poor people get their rights and help them get freedom?

You dont think it had anything to do with oil?