Information please: Church of God

[Teller]

Dude, famous last words of a future snake handler. Just be careful man. I know you've been through some ****, so don't use anything there as a crutch.

Most definitely. I've got my head screwed on straight as far as that goes. I've taken most of the last three years to evaluate every ounce of my life and figure out which directions I'd like to move in, in all areas. There are no crutches, and no excuses anymore. This isn't something I need. I can (IMO) be a good Christian, and find a good place in my life without ever setting foot in a church again. I just would prefer to be in a faith community that I enjoy. Your point is VERY well taken though. And I haven't always had the outlook that I do now, as you well know. So I appreciate you lookin' out.

---------- Post added April-11th-2011 at 10:50 PM ----------

Here's a good test as far as I'm concerned. Find out where they stand on tithing. If it's presented as more of a demand, i.e. "You WILL give xx%" then I say pass. In all honestly, I rarely attend church despite my belief in God, and even when I do, I certainly haven't gotten involved with anything, I just sit in the back, sing, read the prayers, etc. I give them a couple bucks in the plate each time.

If I was an every week attendee, I'd still give them a couple bucks in the plate every week. If they demand more than that or pressure me for more money, I'll find a different church.

I agree entirely. In fact, any church that says to me, "you WILL anything" probably won't get a second visit from me.

[Mickalino]

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I hope that's Grape Juice in those glasses, and not wine or beer. Or I'm tellin your new pastor.

[AsburySkinsFan]

H_H, from what I know about the CoG churches they are independent and tend toward the charismatic worship styles, and stress "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" with evidences, and lean toward the pretty conservative interpretations of scripture. That said there are two streams of CoG churches, the other is the Church of God Anderson, but from my understanding they are both fairly conservative and hold to the holiness traditions and understanding of sanctification, but are non-sacramental.

---------- Post added April-11th-2011 at 10:58 PM ----------

I hope that's Grape Juice in those glasses, and not wine or beer. Or I'm tellin your new pastor.

Hey not all of us are teetotalers.

[Teller]

H_H, from what I know about the CoG churches they are independent and tend toward the charismatic worship styles, and stress "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" with evidences, and lean toward the pretty conservative interpretations of scripture. That said there are two streams of CoG churches, the other is the Church of God Anderson, but from my understanding they are both fairly conservative and hold to the holiness traditions and understanding of sanctification, but are non-sacramental.

---------- Post added April-11th-2011 at 10:58 PM ----------

Hey not all of us are teetotalers.

I was hoping to hear from you here, bud. Thank you.

I thought about you when I was talking to this pastor today. Though his congregation is in rural, southwest PA, he listed his income as nearly six-figures. I thought that was a little odd. Not that I don't think most pastors should be paid far more than they are -- it'd be brutal to break down the average hourly wage -- but I was taken aback by that a little bit. The average income in his area is probably $35k-$40k per household. I don't want to make any snap judgements, but I certainly thought that seemed high.

[Mickalino]

Hey not all of us are teetotalers.

Let's keep the Tea Party of this for once, can we ?

[Teller]

Let's keep the Tea Party of this for once, can we ?

ASF is many things. A tea partier is not one of them.

[grhqofb5]

... Though his congregation is in rural, southwest PA, he listed his income as nearly six-figures. I thought that was a little odd. Not that I don't think most pastors should be paid far more than they are -- it'd be brutal to break down the average hourly wage -- but I was taken aback by that a little bit. The average income in his area is probably $35k-$40k per household. I don't want to make any snap judgements, but I certainly thought that seemed high.

There's a red flag for you. Is he profiting from his congregation? I assume that it's his only source of income.

[Teller]

There's a red flag for you. Is he profiting from his congregation? I assume that it's his only source of income.

The church also runs a retirement home, and I assume he runs that too. If so, that would provide a little more justification for the salary, but it still concerned me a little. But yes, he only listed one source of income, and listed it as "pastor."

[grhqofb5]

The church also runs a retirement home, and I assume he runs that too. If so, that would provide a little more justification for the salary, but it still concerned me a little. But yes, he only listed one source of income, and listed it as "pastor."

If you want to do some sleuthing, find out if the retirement home is a separate corporation. Also, remember that if this church is independent, it will be the pastor who ultimately makes the rules. He may have a church board or some other administrative arm, but he most likely holds sway over his congregation. There is most likely no true oversight.

[Teller]

If you want to do some sleuthing, find out if the retirement home is a separate corporation. Also, remember that if this church is independent, it will be the pastor who ultimately makes the rules. He may have a church board or some other administrative arm, but he most likely holds sway over his congregation. There is most likely no true oversight.

Y'know, that's something else I do like is having some kind of church hierarchy. I hadn't even really considered that.

[Lady Brave]

I'm a CoG member. There are several churches that use the CoG name in some form, but the largest and most recognized is the one based out of Cleveland, TN.

Also, we pentecostals have become a lot more subdued in our worship style over the years. We only swing from the chandeliers on special occasions and holidays now.

[Teller]

I'm a CoG member. There are several churches that use the CoG name in some form, but the largest and most recognized is the one based out of Cleveland, TN.

Also, we pentecostals have become a lot more subdued in our worship style over the years. We only swing from the chandeliers on special occasions and holidays now.

Thanks, LB. And I hope I was clear. I wasn't trying to be critical at all of charismatic worship styles. It's just something that I'm not familiar with, maybe a little apprehensive about. It'd be nice if you lived a little closer. I'd rather go with someone who could give me an idea what to expect, and answer dumb questions when I have them.

[Fergasun]

Go to the church and see if you are comfortable with the teachings, but still feel challenged like you are not just listening to someone tell you what you want to hear, but judge it against the scriptures. I've been in a couple situations where I went to different churches lately. There was one where I could tell their heart was in the right place, but their teaching/pushing on tithing completely turned me off.

The church I used to go to; whenever there was an offering he would anti-push saying, "I don't want to be manipulative, give what is in your heart..." especially when he just went through teaching on tithing (the Bible is very strong in this but not everyone has the same understanding in their heart). Every Pastor is different, and that will impact how their church is as well. We were a church that was "pentacostal/charasmatic" and moved to a new church with similar beliefs; and the senior pastors have the same heart and character, their teachings are spot on but both of them focus on different things. One of them is more of a structured teacher; the other one teaches too but in a very honest and practical way that you can relate to. The character of the Pastor will have a big impact on the church. There was another church I went to (different denomination) that I felt was completely judgmental and somewhat confrontational... I wanted to jump up in the middle of the sermon and point out Ephesians 6:12 to him ("Our enemies are not the flesh and blood but the rulers, powers, and authorities against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm." Of course that would've just been heaping judgement back for judgement.

I grew up in a Catholic church; but at some point there were limitations to what Catholicism could teach me about God; or some point where I wasn't satisfied with what I was getting.

[Teller]

That's a great post, Ferg. Thank you very much.

And I agree with your statements about pastors completely. The pastor of the Lutheran church that I spent my formative years at was utterly phenomenal. And it left a huge hole in my heart personally, and in our church as a whole when he was called by the synod to take over a church in Baltimore. He was the total package. An excellent preacher, someone who could relate to all of his congregants, and someone who was an amazing counselor. Our current pastor has been there a little over 20 years, and I love him when he's in the pulpit. Every time I go, I feel like he's speaking to me personally. He has an amazing feel for what many of us need to hear, when we need to hear it.

However, he's had some pretty serious confrontations with members of our congregation, telling several never to come back. I'm sorry, but that's not his call to make. It's OUR building. It's our Lord's church. He has no right to say which children can "come unto Me," IMO.

Also, my mom is the choir director, and he ripped her guts out one afternoon after church, telling her that, "We'll be just fine, with or without a choir," because he didn't like a particular song she chose.

I need the total package. And the pastor I spoke with today was an incredibly warm, personable, kind and gentle person. He understood where I was coming from when we discussed some of my experiences. He and his wife both hugged me after they got the keys to their new car, very genuinely, even though I'd known them only a couple of hours. They said they would pray that I'd be shown the right way for me, and invited me to their church without being at all pushy. I was very, very impressed with both of them.

Maybe this is closed-minded of me, I don't know. But if he was a Lutheran pastor, I'd join his church tomorrow. I'm just a little leery of a drastic change in worship style. And the sacraments are something that are important to me, so if that's not there, that'll be tough too. But one thing I try to do is listen to other opinions, and TRY new things, as opposed to making a judgment from a distance. I feel that all people, of any faith, political persuasion, whatever, are owed my respect and attention until they prove otherwise.

This is a very trying time for me. My faith has never been as overwhelmingly important to me as it is now. I have a very deep-seeded yearning to find a place that I look forward to going to and praising my Lord every week. I'll find it. And when I do, I will poor my heart and soul into it. I'll use every talent my God has given me to make it a better place than it was before I got there. But this lack of direction hurts right now. I feel like God's reaching out to me personally, but for whatever reason, I'm slow on the uptake. I'll blame my humanity.

[Lady Brave]

Thanks, LB. And I hope I was clear. I wasn't trying to be critical at all of charismatic worship styles. It's just something that I'm not familiar with, maybe a little apprehensive about. It'd be nice if you lived a little closer. I'd rather go with someone who could give me an idea what to expect, and answer dumb questions when I have them.

I haven't taken any offense to anything that's been said. Pentecostal denominations are not what they were 20 years ago. There's been quite a shift in our our worship style and there's a lot less emphasis on the baptism of the holy spirit and speaking in tongues as a central point in our services. Over the years, I think people grew weary of pastors and worship leaders attempting to work the crowd into a frenzy, only to have those same people leave the service no better than when they came in. I guess they believed the louder and more demonstrative the services were, the more God's spirit would be present. It's taken them a long time to see otherwise.

Then again, it depends on the location and size of the church too. Your smaller, more rural congregations may still cling to older worship styles, but those located in more populated areas are probably going to be laid back and exhibit a more mainstream attitude. Our music and how we express ourselves during worship may be a bit livelier, but it's nothing that should cause you any permanent scarring.

It's hard to say what you might encounter, because pentecostal churches seem to be almost divided in a sense now. One CoG church might look like any other Baptist congregation on a Sunday morning and another might be doing it Benny Hinn style.

[Teller]

It's hard to say what you might encounter, because pentecostal churches seem to be almost divided in a sense now. One CoG church might look like any other Baptist congregation on a Sunday morning and another might be doing it Benny Hinn style.

What is meant exactly by "baptism of the Holy Spirit?" Sorry for my ignorance.

[Lady Brave]

What is meant exactly by "baptism of the Holy Spirit?" Sorry for my ignorance.

Sometimes I think even pentecostals don't have a great understanding of what it means, because they're notorious for abusing it's meaning.

I think I might let techboy tackle that question, though. I'm not very good at expressing myself or explaining things in writing. Hence why I only have a little over 100 posts on this board. The best I could do is point you to chapters 12-14 of 1st Corinthians which addresses spiritual gifts.

[Teller]

Sometimes I think even pentecostals don't have a great understanding of what it means, because they're notorious for abusing it's meaning.

I think I might let techboy tackle that question, though. I'm not very good at expressing myself or explaining things in writing. Hence why I only have a little over 100 posts on this board. The best I could do is point you to chapters 12-14 of 1st Corinthians which addresses spiritual gifts.

Aw, please? techboy will post 47 pages, all annotated, and I'll feel obligated to read it all, since he took the time to do it.

Just kidding. I think I understand the basic concept. Feel free to correct me of course. Essentially, people are filled with the Holy Spirit and they just do or say what they feel the spirit guiding them to do. It may be dancing or singing, or speaking in tongues, or "translating" what the person speaking in tongues is saying. To be perfectly frank, I'm not sure how I would feel about all that during a service. But then, I think it's incumbent upon me to not be so closed minded as to not find out.

I will say this though. I absolutely have felt as though the Holy Spirit came over me a time or two. I was at a youth convention in Dallas once, singing with about 20,000 other kids at Reunion Arena. And I can't even explain the feeling I had. Utter peace. Utter joy. Like I was floating, and in communion with something a lot bigger than myself. I mention this for one reason. And that is to say that whether or not I understand the way the Spirit manifests in some people, I absolutely, unequivocally believe that it's a very real thing.

---------- Post added April-12th-2011 at 01:38 AM ----------

Haha. Just realized how much of myself I'm putting out there. But I've been that way around here for 5 years. Why stop now, right?

[sportjunkie07]

HH,

I've seen in several of your comments that you are looking for a church that's right for you. Not a bad idea, but what about a church that's right for God?

i am thinking along these lines. read your Bible and find the church that is the one that God wants you to join.

[Teller]

i am thinking along these lines. read your Bible and find the church that is the one that God wants you to join.

I do actually. Unfortunately, there's no place that I've found that says, "God wants you to go to this church." Or "here's what all the demoninations that didn't exist at this time will believe."

I asked Woofer to go into a little more detail, but maybe he didn't see it, so I'll ask you. My heart is telling me I'm in the wrong place, and I need to make a change. God gave me my heart. Unfortunately, he didn't give me His divine knowledge of which is the "true" church, if there is one. Is there a better way to handle this than seeing what's out there, and what my heart (read: spirit) will be at peace with?

[sportjunkie07]

I do actually. Unfortunately, there's no place that I've found that says, "God wants you to go to this church." Or "here's what all the demoninations that didn't exist at this time will believe."

I asked Woofer to go into a little more detail, but maybe he didn't see it, so I'll ask you. My heart is telling me I'm in the wrong place, and I need to make a change. God gave me my heart. Unfortunately, he didn't give me His divine knowledge of which is the "true" church, if there is one. Is there a better way to handle this than seeing what's out there, and what my heart (read: spirit) will be at peace with?

All denominations are different based on location, pastor, etc. an example of this is the Westboro Baptist Church; i would never go near that place. i have found though, that the Fundamental Baptist churches most closely follow what God has to say. it really depends on what a church preaches though. are they preaching from the Bible? if not, you shouldnt be attending because you are hearing their ideas instead of what God has to say. are they preaching salvation through faith in Jesus, not by the good things you do in life? if not, they are missing the most important part of the Bible. these are two of the most important guidelines. and yes, you should be attending, because it is demanded by God as Mickalino posted earlier.

I have read that you have been burned before, and that is a shame and im sorry about that. But you must realize that God does have demands for us, these things are found in scripture.

[Toe Jam]

You can't go wrong with a non-denominational church. I've been attending one for awhile now and there's nothing I dislike about it.

The people there are like family to me. I think that's probably one of the most important things to look for in a church. Which congregation actually treats you like a brother in Christ? Will they have your back through the rough times or will they turn around and shun you until you "get right"?

People make mistakes. It's good to attend a church where they'll support you even if you accidentally blow up the world.

I'm a heathen, but they love me anyway.

---------- Post added April-11th-2011 at 11:08 PM ----------

But you must realize that God does have demands for us, these things are found in scripture.

This.

[Teller]

All denominations are different based on location, pastor, etc. an example of this is the Westboro Baptist Church; i would never go near that place. i have found though, that the Fundamental Baptist churches most closely follow what God has to say. it really depends on what a church preaches though. are they preaching from the Bible? if not, you shouldnt be attending because you are hearing their ideas instead of what God has to say. are they preaching salvation through faith in Jesus, not by the good things you do in life? if not, they are missing the most important part of the Bible. these are two of the most important guidelines. and yes, you should be attending, because it is demanded by God as Mickalino posted earlier.

Honestly, I prefer a liturgical service at a church that has a healthy adult Bible study. Certainly, though, I need a church with lessons from the Bible, and a sermon that's based on scripture as well. But to me, it's fine if your service and pure Bible study are separate entities. I wholeheartedly agree, I don't want to go and listen to someone's opinion of how I should live my life. I want someone who can make the lessons in the Bible personal and relevant to me.

I shy away a little bit from the "demand" you mention. My ex-wife's church called their Sunday service their Sunday "obligation." No thank you. I want my Sunday worship to be something that reinvigorates me. That gives me hope. That gives me a chance to stop and say, y'know what, the Lord Jesus Christ died that I might live forever. Do I want to do that because I'm obligated too? No. I want to do it because I WANT to do it.

I have read that you have been burned before, and that is a shame and im sorry about that. But you must realize that God does have demands for us, these things are found in scripture.

You're not wrong. And I've spent a great deal of time praying about the things I briefly mentioned. I don't want to get into too much detail, because these things are deeply personal, and frankly, for a time, were absolutely soul crushing. And though I'm not regularly in a church right now, I believe that my God knows my heart. I believe the things that happened, happened for a reason. I believe I'm more aware of what's right and wrong (IMO, at least) with the churches I've attended, and the messages of the men who teach there. I'm very confident and comfortable with my relationship with my God. I just want another outlet to give thanks and praise for the blessings I've been given.

By no means am I afraid. I know God wants me in His house, wherever that ends up being. But I also know that if I die tonight, there's a place in heaven for me; sins and all. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. And I don't have to go to a building to prove that.

---------- Post added April-12th-2011 at 02:33 AM ----------

You can't go wrong with a non-denominational church. I've been attending one for awhile now and there's nothing I dislike about it.

The people there are like family to me. I think that's probably one of the most important things to look for in a church. Which congregation actually treats you like a brother in Christ? Will they have your back through the rough times or will they turn around and shun you until you "get right"?

You'd have to have a lot of patience if you're going to wait for me to get right. And I think you hit squarely on the head what I'm longing for. That deep-rooted sense of faith community and family. Granted it's largely my own fault because of my sporadic attendance, but my church feels very foreign to me right now. It's where I grew up. I know most everyone there. But I feel like an outsider. Not an outcast, mind you, but I don't feel "at home" anymore. And it sucks.

People make mistakes. It's good to attend a church where they'll support you even if you accidentally blow up the world.

I'm a heathen, but they love me anyway.

If I'm ever down that way, I'd like to visit. Sounds like a beautiful place.

[Fergasun]

Not every church is perfect; in fact if you try to find the perfect congregation you'll spend a long time looking, and then even when you find one that just means they'll soon disappoint you.

The church I currently go to... so much clique-y... my wife and I call it the "friends and family" church because they seem very tepid to newcomers. The church I came from was probably the same except they had a really great small group leader who had this awesome small group after church (he actually left and formed his own church). The wisdom and love that was shared from him and his wife to everyone (like 20-30 people) was unbelievable... and their group had young, old, singles, families... it was amazing... met my wife in his small group... (I wasn't even looking for a wife!)

[Teller]

Not every church is perfect; in fact if you try to find the perfect congregation you'll spend a long time looking, and then even when you find one that just means they'll soon disappoint you.

The church I currently go to... so much clique-y... my wife and I call it the "friends and family" church because they seem very tepid to newcomers. The church I came from was probably the same except they had a really great small group leader who had this awesome small group after church (he actually left and formed his own church). The wisdom and love that was shared from him and his wife to everyone (like 20-30 people) was unbelievable... and their group had young, old, singles, families... it was amazing... met my wife in his small group... (I wasn't even looking for a wife!)

Anytime you involve humans, save for one, perfection is impossible. I'm sure I'm not doing a very good job of explaining myself in this thread, but have you ever just had that really deep feeling in your heart that something wasn't for you? That you REALLY needed to make a change if you were going to grow, and put yourself in what ever position you were seeking in life? The way I feel right now is the way I felt working my first job, but on steroids. The only difference being I KNEW I wasn't going to be there forever. In this case I want to find somewhere that I will be.

---------- Post added April-12th-2011 at 02:44 AM ----------

Good night, all. Gotta snag at least 5 hours worth of Z's before work tomorrow.

Thanks to all for keeping this informative, cordial and supportive. I hope I'm not the only one getting something out of it. Y'all are great.