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Information please: Church of God


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I love it how people have no problem with a rapper, rocker, or an athlete making millions of dollars, but if it's a pastor, it's such a horrible thing...

You'd have an excellent point if anyone had said anything of the sort.

I said I thought it was unusual for a pastor to be making 3x the average salary in his area. I think it is. I also said I wasn't making any snap judgments, and started a thread about salaries; hoping to prove that we value the people that SHOULD be valued more than we pay them.

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You'd have an excellent point if anyone had said anything of the sort.

I said I thought it was unusual for a pastor to be making 3x the average salary in his area. I think it is. I also said I wasn't making any snap judgments, and started a thread about salaries; hoping to prove that we value the people that SHOULD be valued more than we pay them.

What's more is that most pastors would decline such salaries and instead want that money directed back into the church in ministry and mission.

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What's more is that most pastors would decline such salaries and instead want that money directed back into the church in ministry and mission.

And it's a round-the-clock job. You're like a cop. You're never off duty. Someone is hospitalized at 3 am, you're there. Visiting rounds all week long. Counseling. Probably taking communion to shut-ins. Studying and planning for services. Etc., etc., etc.

Given what you've shared with me on this board, you probably make less than minimum wage if you break it down hourly. And that's not right. Even if you CHOOSE for it to be that way, it's not right.

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haha. I never thought of you as a jerk ASF.

But that response is preaching.

Infinite ? How do you teach something that has no ending, but has already ended (as far as the book) ?

So free thinking is judged ? As long as people follow the book and use their own beliefs they are good ?

That is what happens with several religions it seems.

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haha. I never thought of you as a jerk ASF.

But that response is preaching.

Meh...I give them plenty of material. ;)

Infinite ? How do you teach something that has no ending, but has already ended (as far as the book) ?

God is infinite. How do you teach something that has no ending? You cannot obviously teach it all, but for instance can you not teach people about the road that runs in front of their house? What about the roads in their neighborhoods and towns, can you not teach about those even if you don't know enough to teach about the roads in Argentina even though all of those roads are connected? Just because you can't teach all the things of God doesn't mean you can't teach what you do know and understand. As far as teaching all of the Bible, the problem is that the subject is deeper than you would imagine; 66 books written by dozens of authors over the span of 2,000 years to both Hebrew and Gentiles in historical contexts spanning from ancient Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, and Roman empires and all of the cultural contextual milieu that is involved with each. No one person can know all there is to know about all of it. You can know a lot about some or a little about a lot, but not all.

So free thinking is judged ? As long as people follow the book and use their own beliefs they are good ?

Sure free thinking is judged, so is historical thinking, it's all judged continually. The difficulty with "new" ideas regarding scripture is that for 2,000 years Christians have been devoting their lives to studying it and learning from God from it....and after that many people have spent that much time in studying it, "new" ideas about it are a very rare thing indeed.

That is what happens with several religions it seems.

As Methodists we allow for what we call "theological exploration", but we also understand that the history of the church is a great teacher, and like children we are all subject to correction.

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Sometimes I wish I had religious faith, instead of just unanswerable questions. But I don't.

I have to say that if I did have faith, the first place I would look to join in worship would be the Quakers. I find their ideas compelling in the abstract: that God is inside every human soul (Inner Light) and can be directly experienced by all without need for church or scriptures, that humans are not born sinful and instead have inherent worth to God their creator, that there is no "Hell" in the afterlife, their focus on integrity, honesty, equality, simplicity and humility - all of those impress the heck out of me.

And there is no group who has ever "walked the walk" of genuine Christian values better than they have, in my opinion.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/quaker2.htm

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Sometimes I wish I had religious faith, instead of just unanswerable questions. But I don't.

I wish discussions about matters of faith would more often than not go the direction this thread has so far. No judgments made about particular faiths or lack thereof. Just honest, genuine discussion. IMHO, this has been an example of ES at its best.

And honestly, I can understand where you're coming from, 100%. I'm not sure what you consider yourself, but I have an appreciation for the position of agnostics. I would be lying if I told you that there weren't a few times in my life that I've questioned my own beliefs...and not superficially, but VERY deeply. The fundamentals of Christianity ARE pretty unbelievable when you get right down to it. I can appreciate those people who want proof, and won't simply "just believe" because a whole lot of other people do. But then, I also ask the opposite question. What happens if the resurrection of Jesus could be somehow proven. What happens to the concept of "faith." You don't have to have faith in a fact. It's a fact.

I really enjoy discussions about things that don't have definitive answers; especially with people who are more intelligent than I. And there ain't no shortage of 'em. :ols:

I have to say that if I did have faith, the first place I would look to join in worship would be the Quakers. I find their ideas compelling in the abstract: that God is inside every human soul (Inner Light) and can be directly experienced by all without need for church or scriptures, that humans are not born sinful and instead have inherent worth to God their creator, that there is no "Hell" in the afterlife, their focus on integrity, honesty, equality, simplicity and humility - all of those impress the heck out of me.

It makes perfect sense that a tradition like that would appeal to you. (No sarcasm at all.) It's empowering, and it doesn't require a belief in something that can't be proven for salvation. And I certainly wish each of those values you listed were more prevalent in all areas of our society. We'd be in a much better place if they were.

And there is no group who has ever "walked the walk" of genuine Christian values better than they have, in my opinion.

Hard to argue that. Unfortuantely, some of their beliefs don't jibe with my idea of God, original sin, the reason for Jesus' existence, etc, but as a faith community, it's hard to argue with their results.

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Sometimes I wish I had religious faith, instead of just unanswerable questions. But I don't.

I have to say that if I did have faith, the first place I would look to join in worship would be the Quakers. I find their ideas compelling in the abstract: that God is inside every human soul (Inner Light) and can be directly experienced by all without need for church or scriptures, that humans are not born sinful and instead have inherent worth to God their creator, that there is no "Hell" in the afterlife, their focus on integrity, honesty, equality, simplicity and humility - all of those impress the heck out of me.

And there is no group who has ever "walked the walk" of genuine Christian values better than they have, in my opinion.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/quaker2.htm

One of my favorite 20th century Christian writers is Quaker. Richard Foster. If it ever strikes you, you should pick up any of his books. They're solid.

Honestly, there is major break down of denominational distinctions when you get past the level of cultic practices. People who focus on scholarship (and often on missiology) find themselves speaking the same language with differences and agreements that don't necessarily follow denominational lines.

Many of the theological barriers that are highlighted by the extremes of each denomination are embarrassing to the scholars who come from each of those denominations. All that to say, I think denominations are more about traditions and practices and polity than they are about true theological distinctions.

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One of my favorite 20th century Christian writers is Quaker. Richard Foster. If it ever strikes you, you should pick up any of his books. They're solid.

And if I may suggest 1 above the others, "Celebration of Discipline". Wow, it will change you in a wonderful way.

Honestly, there is major break down of denominational distinctions when you get past the level of cultic practices. People who focus on scholarship (and often on missiology) find themselves speaking the same language with differences and agreements that don't necessarily follow denominational lines.

Many of the theological barriers that are highlighted by the extremes of each denomination are embarrassing to the scholars who come from each of those denominations. All that to say, I think denominations are more about traditions and practices and polity than they are about true theological distinctions.

Pretty much agree here.

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I wish discussions about matters of faith would more often than not go the direction this thread has so far. No judgments made about particular faiths or lack thereof. Just honest, genuine discussion. IMHO, this has been an example of ES at its best.

And honestly, I can understand where you're coming from, 100%. I'm not sure what you consider yourself, but I have an appreciation for the position of agnostics. I would be lying if I told you that there weren't a few times in my life that I've questioned my own beliefs...and not superficially, but VERY deeply. The fundamentals of Christianity ARE pretty unbelievable when you get right down to it. I can appreciate those people who want proof, and won't simply "just believe" because a whole lot of other people do. But then, I also ask the opposite question. What happens if the resurrection of Jesus could be somehow proven. What happens to the concept of "faith." You don't have to have faith in a fact. It's a fact.

I really enjoy discussions about things that don't have definitive answers; especially with people who are more intelligent than I. And there ain't no shortage of 'em. :ols:

It makes perfect sense that a tradition like that would appeal to you. (No sarcasm at all.) It's empowering, and it doesn't require a belief in something that can't be proven for salvation. And I certainly wish each of those values you listed were more prevalent in all areas of our society. We'd be in a much better place if they were.

Hard to argue that. Unfortuantely, some of their beliefs don't jibe with my idea of God, original sin, the reason for Jesus' existence, etc, but as a faith community, it's hard to argue with their results.

Thanks for this post. I'm a lapsed Catholic who has become an agnostic. I would love to believe in something greater, but I am unable to force my rational mind to do so. At the same time, I know that there are questions that I can't answer, and maybe the answers to those questions could take me somewhere higher - if I only knew what the answers were. But I don't.

I have great respect for, and some jealousy toward, sincere religious people. They are experiencing something that I don't get to experience.

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And if I may suggest 1 above the others, "Celebration of Discipline". Wow, it will change you in a wonderful way.

Absolutely. A modern classic for sure.

But you know the one that snuck up on me was Streams of Living Water. The way he described the development of the charasmatic, evangelical, and sacrimental traditions blew the door off some misunderstand that I had.

honorary_hog, if you had asked about checking out a charasmatic church 9 years ago, I would have had a negative response. After reading Streams of Living Water, I've become much more generous in what I consider orthodoxy. I really do appreciate the attention to working of the Spirit denominations like Church of God bring and I have a lot to learn from them.

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Absolutely. A modern classic for sure.

But you know the one that snuck up on me was Streams of Living Water. The way he described the development of the charismatic, evangelical, and sacramental traditions blew the door off some misunderstand that I had.

I haven't read that one, but I'm pretty familiar with the Wesleyan Holiness traditions. "Celebration of Discipline" killed me especially the Discipline of Simplicity.

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Thanks for this post. I'm a lapsed Catholic who has become an agnostic. I would love to believe in something greater, but I am unable to force my rational mind to do so. At the same time, I know that there are questions that I can't answer, and maybe the answers to those questions could take me somewhere higher - if I only knew what the answers were. But I don't.

There's no shame whatsoever in being practical, and taking a "seeing is believing" kind of approach to life. I'm certain that it serves you better than the alternative in everything else that you do. (And in your religious beliefs too, if that's what works for you.) I don't expect to be preached to, and therefore, I won't preach to anyone else. But I will pray for you, brother. Not that you "come around to some 'right' way of thinking" but that you find what it is that you want to believe in. Forgive me if I'm reading something that isn't there, but it seems that in these last few posts, that you want to believe in something "more," whatever that may be for you. I sincerely hope that whatever it is you seek, you'll find. Not just in matters of faith, but in everything.

I have great respect for, and some jealousy toward, sincere religious people. They are experiencing something that I don't get to experience.

Y'know, the reason I "allow" you to piss me off sometimes is that I respect your opinion. If I didn't, you couldn't bother me. I'd just blow you off...like I do Bubble Screen. :ols:;)

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hh,

if youre up in montgomery county, church of the redeemer in gaithersburg is excellent. pastor dale o'shields is really fantastic. its contemporary without being over the top.

i always came out of a service feeling not only like i learned something new, i felt almost like a new person.

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hh,

if youre up in montgomery county, church of the redeemer in gaithersburg is excellent. pastor dale o'shields is really fantastic. its contemporary without being over the top.

i always came out of a service feeling not only like i learned something new, i felt almost like a new person.

Thanks man. I'm out in the sticks of Western MD (Cumberland), but my brother lives in Gaithersburg. If I ever get down that way to see him, I might try to visit. That's exactly what I want. A place that leaves me excited about my life, and what God wants for it, and recharges me for the coming week.

And I do like the sound of "contemporary without being over the top." We Lutherans are pretty stuffy, so trying something different gradually would probably be a good thing.

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