What If there was really a serperation of church and state in all governments

[DRSmith]

I was think about this what happened if governments were not being driven at times by those who believe their religion should be the rules for all.

For instance in the middle east what happened if governments were secular and more worried about their nations over all health and not just those with they share a sect of that particular faith.

Or in the US what would have happened if the last decade had not been spent worrying about gay marriage, gays in the military abortion and a woman whose husband wanted to take her off like support could there have been an eye on the economy and the incoming doom instead?

I look at Russia where you have one sect of Christianity using the government to go after sects of Christianity and Muslims and it just creates more of a mess.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Then the religious people would not have equal representation by their government.

[DRSmith]

Then the religious people would not have equal representation by their government.

Should not government just represent the best interests of all people?

[ACW]

Gays in the military abortion?

[Kosher Ham]

:munchout:

[Thiebear]

It wouldn't be worse/better than now.

Though it would make different mistakes it wouldn't VVV

on 4/7/2011 almost shut down the government over funding of an abortion/free clinic.

Add in the fact it is as legal as eating a fruit smoothie

And its a fraction of a fraction of even this days budget vs. the month or the year.

And it was going to cost more to take the two weeks beforehand stopping everything being worked and work on an essential employee list.

And it was going to stop Washngton D.C. costing million during the f'ing blossom festival days?

And it was going to shut down parks and military families wouldn't get paid until the strike was over?

If thats not pandering to the religious right there's no reason to even pretend. You show me the person that says the above false is party first certified.

(disclaimer)

I know it wasn't the republicans fault persay: The Dems haven't passed a budget bill in years?

I'm just pointing out the obvious of the last minutes of the negotiations when you have to keep the 30000 foot view and not get caught up in the moment.

And you can't blame the United States with any women's safety issues.. Our nation at its age makes the rest look cruel in comparison.

A black/hispanic women from a New Orleans restaurant could probably walk into office and push President Obama out with us debating if that was okay...

[AsburySkinsFan]

Should not government just represent the best interests of all people?

This may sound like heresy, but no, the government's job is to represent the will of the people after all this is still a Democratic Republic (representative democracy). If it was the will of the people institutionalized racism could still be legal providing a Constitutional amendment is adopted allowing for it.

[Teller]

This may sound like heresy, but no, the government's job is to represent the will of the people after all this is still a Democratic Republic (representative democracy). If it was the will of the people institutionalized racism could still be legal providing a Constitutional amendment is adopted allowing for it.

It is.

And this is a good topic idea, but man, that OP was hard to get through.

[Destino]

If you actually think political leaders in the US were focused on gays and such you're too gullible. Look at the transformation the US economic system has experienced since the 80s. The systematic dismantling of demand side economic policy and the weakening of US regulatory systems. Does that strike you as the action of people that forgot about the economy and were focused on gays?

Of course not.

[AsburySkinsFan]

If you actually think political leaders in the US were focused on gays and such you're too gullible. Look at the transformation the US economic system has experienced since the 80s. The systematic dismantling of demand side economic policy and the weakening of US regulatory systems. Does that strike you as the action of people that forgot about the economy and were focused on gays?

Of course not.

The Right co-opted the Conservative religious vote and convinced them that Fiscal Conservatism=Social Conservatism. Heck Bachmann has even said as much. And they did it to push their economic agenda under the guise of a religious agenda.

http://www.minnpost.com/dailyglean/2011/03/28/26934/social_conservatism_is_fiscal_conservatism_says_bachmann

Whereas Jim Wallis says

You can't be evangelical and associate yourself with Jesus and what he says about the poor and just have no other domestic concerns than tax cuts for wealthy people.

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jim_wallis_2.html#ixzz1J9ItW9hn

and...

When evangelical leaders can persuade the president to be concerned about what's happening in Sudan, or sex trafficking around the world, or HIV-AIDS, that's a very good thing. I am completely supportive of that.

and...

I believe in the separation of church and state, absolutely. But I don't believe in the separation of public life from our values, our basic values, and for many of us, our religious values.

Those pretty much sum up my beliefs regarding the separation of Church and State.

[Teller]

I'm so tired of the "tax cuts for the wealthy" lie that I want to break things.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm so tired of the "tax cuts for the wealthy" lie that I want to break things.

I would be too if all I wanted was tax cuts for the wealthy and people kept calling me out for it.

[Teller]

I would be too if all I wanted was tax cuts for the wealthy and people kept calling me out for it.

I've asked you before, and I don't expect an answer this time either, but I got the Bush tax cut. Did you?

[Destino]

I'm so tired of the "tax cuts for the wealthy" lie that I want to break things.[/QUOTe]

What lie are you talking about? The tax code for the top bracket prior to the Two Santa and Supply Side stance from the GOP was 70%. They are currently proposing flat taxes that would reduce it to the lowest levels possible and tie it to everyone else so they can never be raised.

What lie?

[AsburySkinsFan]

I've asked you before, and I don't expect an answer this time either, but I got the Bush tax cut. Did you?

Nope, I don't make enough because I'm poor, seriously I'm $5k above the poverty line. Heck my state taxes went up this year.

[Teller]

What lie are you talking about? The tax code for the top bracket prior to the Two Santa and Supply Side stance from the GOP was 70%. They are currently proposing flat taxes that would reduce it to the lowest levels possible and tie it to everyone else so they can never be raised.

What lie?

I got the tax cut. Apparently that makes me incredibly wealthy. Which is news to me, of course.

And there isn't a damned thing wrong with a flat tax. Heaven forbid we drastically reduce the size of the IRS and save all that money, and have everybody treated equally. And you guys can still be happy because 20-25% of 30 million is still a lot more than the same percentage of $30,000.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I got the tax cut. Apparently that makes me incredibly wealthy. Which is news to me, of course.

And there isn't a damned thing wrong with a flat tax. Heaven forbid we drastically reduce the size of the IRS and save all that money, and have everybody treated equally. And you guys can still be happy because 20-25% of 30 million is still a lot more than the same percentage of $30,000.

Except that the wealthy will find a loophole to hide their money from being taxed like they do now, but as long as we're creating a Utopian dreamscape, what would be wrong with not charging anyone anything for any services and instead if everyone just used what they needed and supplied the needs of others as they are able, see right there we've eliminated all of our economic problems.

[Teller]

Except that the wealthy will find a loophole to hide their money from being taxed like they do now, but as long as we're creating a Utopian dreamscape, what would be wrong with not charging anyone anything for any services and instead if everyone just used what they needed and supplied the needs of others as they are able, see right there we've eliminated all of our economic problems.

Who said I opposed eliminating loopholes? Not me.

[Destino]

I got the tax cut. Apparently that makes me incredibly wealthy. Which is news to me, of course.

And there isn't a damned thing wrong with a flat tax. Heaven forbid we drastically reduce the size of the IRS and save all that money, and have everybody treated equally. And you guys can still be happy because 20-25% of 30 million is still a lot more than the same percentage of $30,000.

No where have I said that tax cuts were exclusively in the top tax bracket so the fact you got one is entirely irrelevant. Cool story though.

As for the flat tax: I think it's incredibly wrong minded. It will shift the tax burden onto the middle class, add velocity to the wealth gap, reduce the government ability to respond to economic issues as they happen, and the purpose is entirely to tie the top tax bracket to everyone else so they can't be raised. All that plan is, is a means to make "trickle down" permanent policy when it's results show that it should be abandoned entirely not adopted as a rule.

Also "loop holes" aren't all bad and deductions shouldn't be eliminated. Taxes not being super simple isn't an issue that moves me at all. They can be complicated if your finances are complicated... get an accountant problem solved. It's a non issue in my mind.

[Thiebear]

I know with the stimulus'

I received 126$ due to making too much

I received nothing? for President Obama's stimulus

I received nothing for the child credit

All from my horrible memory but i thought the tax cuts/stimulus were for 75k and below mostly?

and at this point the bush cuts should be removed.

Its a fourth layer to a 3d puzzle of insanity.

[Teller]

No where have I said that tax cuts were exclusively in the top tax bracket so the fact you got one is entirely irrelevant. Cool story though.

It's entirely relevant. Pelosi et al continue to hammer that the Bush tax cuts were "only for the wealthiest Americans" and as ASF demonstrates, it's been bought hook, line and sinker, despite being utterly false.

As for the flat tax: I think it's incredibly wrong minded. It will shift the tax burden onto the middle class, add velocity to the wealth gap, reduce the government ability to respond to economic issues as they happen, and the purpose is entirely to tie the top tax bracket to everyone else so they can't be raised. All that plan is, is a means to make "trickle down" permanent policy when it's results show that it should be abandoned entirely not adopted as a rule.

You won't convince me that punishing prosperity (small "p" lol) is a good thing, nor will I convince you that it's not. I believe that your goals are noble and sincere, and I hope that you would have the same respect for mine. But further debate would be pretty pointless.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Who said I opposed eliminating loopholes? Not me.

I know you didn't but it would be naive to think that the rich who fund the candidate's election campaigns wouldn't also push for loopholes in which to hide their money, or they just wouldn't report it. That's why I believe that a flat tax that truly taxes all at an equal percentage is a pipe dream, what's more is that a 20% tax on the poor has a much bigger impact than it does on the rich.

[twa]

It looks to me that those issues are simply used as a distraction by both parties to keep ya from stringing them all up for incompetence.

[Destino]

It looks to me that those issues are simply used as a distraction by both parties to keep ya from stringing them all up for incompetence.

absolutely and entirely in agreement on both parties. Show me a party that puts American infrastructure as a priority? None. We're happy to fight incredibly expensive wars, expand entitlement programs, and slash revenues though. Meanwhile we have crumbling bridges, levees, rail systems, and internet infrastructure that is a national embarrassment. Hell we can't even get these clowns to close the loopholes that provide incentives to offshore profits and jobs (and the parties agree on this issue!).

[Darth Tater]

Separation of church and state or the desired ownership of the church which seems to be the jist of this thread. Nazi Germany is a good example.