drtdrums Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I know there is a fairly strong liberal contingent here in the Tailgate, and I have a great deal of respect for at least most of you despite disagreeing with you economically and probably on many other things as well. While I believe none of you have the belief system of Michael Moore, I think that Moore does echo a sentiment often espoused by those on the left -- namely, that the rich should pay more taxes because they're currently not paying their fair share. This video is a fairly succinct example of why this idea doesn't begin to scratch the surface of our needs as a nation. Never mind the economic implications -- our budget has outgrown our economy and cannot be fixed by taking the wealth of the wealthy (or of anyone else). Understand that I do not believe that the R's are blameless in this. Nor do I believe they have sufficient answers. This is not even an indictment of the liberal platform. This is only an indictment of this particular plank of the platform. Increasing taxes by any amount on any portion of the citizenry is urinating into a hurricane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boofMcboof Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 While I don't think that production should be taxed but I thought the video was a pretty shallow argument overall as it doesn't address current core tax structure problems. I'm politically and economically heterodox but videos like this really get my blood boiling at how many people are getting used advancing agendas that have no real connection to what our country was founded on. Well, I've watched your video. Now if you could watch mine. CnrEHFwZ9hk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Funny how America was a much stronger nation after the depression with regulation and higher taxes, imagine if after 9/11 along the war taxes had gone up and when Bush said he wanted to invade Iraq he had said and taxes with have to go up. What if everytime the corpotations decided they wanted to ship jobs over seas they would see their taxes go up to cover the cost to tax payers their move was going to cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Funny how America was a much stronger nation after the depression with regulation and higher taxes, imagine if after 9/11 along the war taxes had gone up and when Bush said he wanted to invade Iraq he had said and taxes with have to go up.What if everytime the corpotations decided they wanted to ship jobs over seas they would see their taxes go up to cover the cost to tax payers their move was going to cost. and there you have it. After 9/11 we were told to keep on going on shopping and spending money. Not tighten our belts and pitch in for the greater good. No victory gardens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 my dad, who is a cpa told me that he just did a tax return for a guy who made multiple millions of dollars just in dividends this year and wound up paying the same percentage of taxes as my dad and many other middle class people (my dad makes low 6 figures, probably close to 150k or so). something doesn't seem right about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
December90 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 my dad, who is a cpa told me that he just did a tax return for a guy who made multiple millions of dollars just in dividends this year and wound up paying the same percentage of taxes as my dad and many other middle class people (my dad makes low 6 figures, probably close to 150k or so). something doesn't seem right about that What is unfair about paying the same "percentage"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 the guy making multiple millions of dollars a year should pay a higher percentage than the guy making 100k in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_Edwards_Fan Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Originally Posted by DRSmith: "Funny how America was a much stronger nation after the depression with regulation and higher taxes, imagine if after 9/11 along the war taxes had gone up and when Bush said he wanted to invade Iraq he had said and taxes with have to go up. What if everytime the corpotations decided they wanted to ship jobs over seas they would see their taxes go up to cover the cost to tax payers their move was going to cost. " While i tend to agree most often with many of the posters who think our tax structure needs to be reevaluated (including the closing of loopholes and increased taxes), i tend to find the argument about how well the US did post depression/post-WWII a bit misleading. I think our country would be pretty strong today as well if we could instantly shut down the majority of the means of production in most of western Europe, Japan and be the (essentially) the lone country still capable of manufacturing. I think we forget too ofte the destruction of European/Eastern plants, roads, railroads and populations that led to some of our large gains in the post depression/post-WWII eras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
December90 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget Total Receipts by individual Tax Payers 899Billion (Lets round up to 1 trillion) Total Receipts by individual Tax Payers who earn in the top 1% (between 2005 and 2008 it has averaged around 40% of total tax receipts So lets say 400 Billion) Total Receipts by individual Tax Payers who earn in the top 5% (between 2005 and 2008 it has averaged around 60% of total tax receipts So lets say 600 Billion) Now with a 1.65 Trillion dollar budget deficit for this year, just do the math yourself and ask if we eliminate that by quadrupling the tax collections on the top 1% (which even the most left wingnut is not proposing) "Taxing the rich" isn't the answer. ---------- Post added April-6th-2011 at 09:10 AM ---------- the guy making multiple millions of dollars a year should pay a higher percentage than the guy making 100k in my opinion From those according to their ability, to those according to their need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 the guy making multiple millions of dollars a year should pay a higher percentage than the guy making 100k in my opinion why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 why? just my opinion when my dad explained the break down of this particular client's tax return (the multi millionaire) and told me how much he paid in taxes i was amazed at how little it actually was. the middle class is paying a much higher percentage of their wages to taxes than this guy is. it just didn't seem right to me. you have your opinion, and i have mine. not like its gonna change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 just my opinion fair enough, I believe in equal taxes across the board, why should we tax someone more because they worked harder or made it in an industry that is more lucrative? I just don't understand the idea that people believe those with more money than them should suffer consequences. Those people worked hard for their money, why should they pay more because of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 fair enough, I believe in equal taxes across the board, why should we tax someone more because they worked harder or made it in an industry that is more lucrative? I just don't understand the idea that people believe those with more money than them should suffer consequences. Those people worked hard for their money, why should they pay more because of it? i see what you are saying, and i hate being taxed myself but i know i have a responsibility to pay my share for the roads, schools, etc.. i guess i look at it like, if i make 3 million dollars a year and pay 10% towards taxes, that 300k. i still wind up with 2.7 million for the year then there is this other guy who makes 100k and pays 10% towards taxes, which is only 10k. but that bumps him down to only 90k for the year. obviously this is a very basic, hypothetical scenario but the guy who gets taxed for 10k probably feels that more than the guy getting taxed 300k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 At this point "Science" should have this down to defaults: IF running 5 wars do not cut defense or VA. Up taxes to 45% IF running 5 wars during the worst recession evah! (take oil from countries involved) i'm sure they can throw a few more variables in there but i think i covered the majority of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 The tax structure needs to be re-adjusted for millionaires and billionaires. There is no reason that someone making 75k a year needs to be in a 28 percent bracket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 fair enough, I believe in equal taxes across the board, why should we tax someone more because they worked harder or made it in an industry that is more lucrative? I just don't understand the idea that people believe those with more money than them should suffer consequences. Those people worked hard for their money, why should they pay more because of it? Assuming the rich worked harder is a bit of a stretch. How about those who didn't work for any of it? There's plenty of them out there. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Assuming the rich worked harder is a bit of a stretch.How about those who didn't work for any of it? There's plenty of them out there. ~Bang Agree. Which is why I have no problem with the "death tax" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 The tax structure needs to be re-adjusted for millionaires and billionaires.There is no reason that someone making 75k a year needs to be in a 28 percent bracket. Yes, exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 .namely, that the rich should pay more taxes because they're currently not paying their fair share. I respect the calm rational way you've framed and pressented your statement, posters on both sides of the argument could learn from your style... I would entirely disagree with how you framed the question however. The question is not whether it is reasonable to tax the rich more.. There is no question it is reasonable... The real question we face is whether it is reasonable to tax the wealthy less. In the modern history of the nation the wealthy are at historic low levels of income tax. The question is whether after we've taken actions recommended by the conservative right not once but on two separate occassions spaning 30 years, both times resulting in near disasterous deficites; whether it's rational to set those asside and say let's have one more go at the issue... The current top tax rate is the lowest tax rate since Herbert Hoover left the white house!!! Hoover who saw the great depression occur in his first six months in office cut the tax rate to spurr economic development too... How did that work out for him? It didn't.. Top tax rate by year... http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213 America cut taxes on the wealthy in the 1980's under Ronald Reagan.... We didn't see more revenue relative to government spending as promised, we saw the deficite bolloon and then mushroom. We did it again under George W. Bush.. Cut taxation on the wealthy with the promise of seeing more revenue come to the federal coffers via the increased economic activity such cuts would generate. Again the cuts over 10 years had the opposite effect. Revenues shrank and did not ever narrow much less keep pace with government spending... Today the conservatives tell us we are broke and can't afford to take care of our poor, our elderly, our disadvantage. Which demonstrates how stupid the conservative leadership believes the United States People are. The US economy is the largest most diverse economy in the world. Our sole problem is not that we are broke, our sole problem is when you cut taxes over ten years while increasing both civilian and military spending your deficites are going to get bigger. And that's exactly what we did, or they did from 2000 - 2008 resulting in near economic collapse... And what was the bootie the conservatives sold the future of our economy to achieve? The reduction of income tax from a historic low of 38% to a new historic low of 36% for the top 1% of the nations earners... Personally as one of the nation's top earners, I would rather have elderly living indoors and poor children eating meals consistantly. These are the people the conservatives today want to pay for my tax cut.. It's disgraceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulane Skins Fan Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 How about taxing the rich as much as Reagan, Clinton of Bush I did? My understanding is removing just the W Bush tax cuts, eliminates the deficit in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 i see what you are saying, and i hate being taxed myself but i know i have a responsibility to pay my share for the roads, schools, etc..i guess i look at it like, if i make 3 million dollars a year and pay 10% towards taxes, that 300k. i still wind up with 2.7 million for the year then there is this other guy who makes 100k and pays 10% towards taxes, which is only 10k. but that bumps him down to only 90k for the year. obviously this is a very basic, hypothetical scenario but the guy who gets taxed for 10k probably feels that more than the guy getting taxed 300k I have an issue with this. Before that though, the above is a great example to work from. Person A does whatever he does (works hard or got many benefits in life, whatever) and makes 3M per year in a capitalist country. Person B does whatever it is he does (works hard, etc.) and makes a very lucrative salary of 100K per year. Yes, after the same percentage is removed for taxes, person A still has 2.7M left over to spend while person B "only" has 90K. How about the fact that person A contributed 30x more to the common good? Why should we increase that? And this is coming from someone much more like person B than person A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Agree. Which is why I have no problem with the "death tax" If I didn't know better I'd think you were a liberal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 i see what you are saying, and i hate being taxed myself but i know i have a responsibility to pay my share for the roads, schools, etc..i guess i look at it like, if i make 3 million dollars a year and pay 10% towards taxes, that 300k. i still wind up with 2.7 million for the year then there is this other guy who makes 100k and pays 10% towards taxes, which is only 10k. but that bumps him down to only 90k for the year. obviously this is a very basic, hypothetical scenario but the guy who gets taxed for 10k probably feels that more than the guy getting taxed 300k oh no doubt, and if you are the one making 3 mil and feel you should give more than I'm all for it. i just don't think it's fair to the person who worked to get to make 3 mil a year should be forced to pay more because they chose the right path. i guess what i'm getting at is if they guy at 100k (90k after tax) doesn't like where he's at money wise he needs to look at himself rather than the guy who makes 3 mil and say he needs to pay more because he made better decisions and therefore makes more money than i do. in the end if the guy who doesn't make much wants to not feel as if he's hit so hard by taxes, maybe he should work harder himself to make up that money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 fair enough, I believe in equal taxes across the board, why should we tax someone more because they worked harder or made it in an industry that is more lucrative? I just don't understand the idea that people believe those with more money than them should suffer consequences. Those people worked hard for their money, why should they pay more because of it? In theory I like the idea of a flat tax or at least a much flatter tax system. However my support for such a system is predicated on having no deductions and no loopholes. Just pay "x" percent and be done with it. I very seriously doubt the wealthy would be willing to accept such a system because they enjoy complaining about high taxes while retaining the ability to use accountants and tax attorneys to lower their effective tax rate to very low levels. Ditto that for corporations, many of whom use loopholes to get their effective tax rates to zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I very seriously doubt the wealthy would be willing to accept such a system because they enjoy complaining about high taxes while retaining the ability to use accountants and tax attorneys to lower their effective tax rate to very low levels. Ditto that for corporations, many of whom use loopholes to get their effective tax rates to zero. this is so true. the stories i hear from some cpa's about the loopholes people use to get their taxes to a ridiculously low level are mind boggling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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