A Closer Look at 2011 QB Prospects:Jake Locker

[Stophovr6]

Locker is not a #10 pick. No QB in this draft is. Draft a QB in a later rounds and make it one that doesn't have accuracy issues.

[Bubble Screen]

That's not really true.

Carolina had some issues on offense (a solid defense though), but bad QB play was a big part of their problem, and Clausen was a main contributor to that. Some feel that John Fox threw him into the fire too early, which is possible, but he didn't show much even by the end of the year.

There were also leadership questions with him.

I still think the guy could eventually pan out. Not sure if it will be in Carolina though. They do have a new QB coach, also (Mike Shula). It will be interesting to see how Carolina goes about handling the QB position. My guess is they go after a Kyle Orton, or someone like that, for the near future.

[Mahons21]

I don't see how you can scramble and keep a wide base at the same time at some point your feet are gonna be close to together.

Well he's "scrambling" inside the pocket and stepping up inside the pocket, in such a scenario I would prefer to see a QB with a wide base shuffling his feet, when he needs to step up he can still keep this wide base.

Locker, look like he has happy feet shuffling them back and forth one next to the other.

I'm not even sure if Mayock has a big board yet.

I also doubt that Mayock would down grade a prospect based off the Senior Bowl.

Typically player can't hurt themselves in these events and the evaluation is as much about how the player interacts with the teammates and coaching staff as it is about what they do on the field.

Well in Mayock mock draft, or wherever you saw that Mayock had him ranked 15th, was it after the SB?

[darrelgreenie]

Well he's "scrambling" inside the pocket and stepping up inside the pocket, in such a scenario I would prefer to see a QB with a wide base shuffling his feet, when he needs to step up he can still keep this wide base.

Locker, look like he has happy feet shuffling them back and forth one next to the other.

Of course in the pocket you want to see crisp footwork.

He's past the pocket when this shuffling is happening he's in adlib/making a play territory.

Well in Mayock mock draft, or wherever you saw that Mayock had him ranked 15th, was it after the SB?

No it wasn't after the SB but I think you know that.

I said in the last post that I doubt that Mayock would down grade a player based off the Senior Bowl.

Typically players can't really hurt themselves at the SB the teams already have their film an equal if not more important aspect of the SB is the interview process and how the players interact with they're teammates and the coaching staff.

If Mayock had Locker at top 10-15 QB then he's likely still a top 10-15 QB; unless of course the SB is more important then all a player's game film.

[Mahons21]

I think it's safe to say we disagree on his footwork on this play. At this point we're really just arguing semantics.

[darrelgreenie]

I think it's safe to say we disagree on his footwork on this play. At this point we're really just arguing semantics.

Maybe so; I thought it was 2 guys talking about a play.

HTTR

[Campbell's_da_man]

Locker is not ready to start in the NFL. He will be a two or three year project. The only polished, NFL ready QB I saw in the all star games was Christian Ponder, FSU, but I wouldn't start him his rookie year either. I also like that kid from Nevada as well, but he's gonna need more time, a year or possibly two.

I think it would be better to concentrate on building our lines on both sides of the ball in the draft. As far as free agency, I really like Tomba Hali, DE/OLB, Kansas City Chiefs, if we can't draft Von Miller. He would be an excellent complement to Orakpo on the other side. We can use more 3-4 LB's, a RDE, and we definitely need a free safety as well.

[Mahons21]

Maybe so; I thought it was 2 guys talking about a play.

HTTR

No for sure it is. I just feel like I'm re-wording my overall stance, because I haven't been able to put it clearly enough, but I hope you got my general opinion of the play. I'm by no means qualified to to judge a QB's footwork, but on that specific play in my opinion once he starts to ad-lib (shuffling his feet), he's not doing himself any favors.

I know he is in "make a play" territory, but that territory on his specific play happens to be a perfect pocket, because his o-line did a great job (for once) on this play. In this situation I would like to see a QB keeping a wide base while keeping his feet moving, and then eventually stepping up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZiGfdiarN0

This is a highlight video of Drew Bress, if you got some time today to check it out you should. Obviously Brees has some of the best footwork in the NFL, but specifically note how wide he keeps his base when both stepping up and shuffling around in the pocket (even after a play has broken down). That's ideally what I would like to see a QB doing.

Right around the 3:30 mark there's a play where he's moving around and he has to break his base for a second but he snaps right back into it.

[darrelgreenie]

No for sure it is. I just feel like I'm re-wording my overall stance, because I haven't been able to put it clearly enough, but I hope you got my general opinion of the play. I'm by no means qualified to to judge a QB's footwork, but on that specific play in my opinion once he starts to ad-lib (shuffling his feet), he's not doing himself any favors.

I think in general when a QB is trying to make a play on the move/scrambling/mid-scramble they're footwork is gonna get messy, just look at any QB even Aaron Rodgers often ends up throwing goofy foot when he's on the run.

I understand your point but imo its kinda unfair from an assessment point of view to grade his footwork as a minus on that play, afterall its a crucial 4th and 10 and he does in fact make the play.

I know he is in "make a play" territory, but that territory on his specific play happens to be a perfect pocket, because his o-line did a great job (for once) on this play. In this situation I would like to see a QB keeping a wide base while keeping his feet moving, and then eventually stepping up.

I disagree that the pocket is clean.

And in an ideal situation yes I would agree with your statement above.

In a clean pocket with no pressure he wouldn't need to step up through the pocket b/c he's RT wouldn't be on the verge of getting beat.(and does get beat)

In a clean pocket he could just sit in the pocket and do exactly what you suggest stay alive in the pocket and keep a throwing base.

But he's steps up through the pocket and he's in between running and throwing because he knows he can't stay where he is (no mans land) b/c defenders are closing in.

BTW-I'm a big time Drew Brees fan but that's a highlight reel, if I posted Locker's highlight reel you would see good pocket presence there too.

I get the feeling your using the play we're talking about to represent Locker footwork in general which i believe is a different discussion.

I would love to talk about Locker footwork and pocket presence from this game.

But, I would have to re-watch the vid w/ a focus on footwork.

But, I'm game if you are.

Hail

[Lavarleap56]

On this specific play that is being discussed lockers footwork is a negative and not ideal. Mahons21 is accurate in his assessment of Brees footwork in how he maintains his base and slides/ steps up in the pocket while maintaining his balance and being in a good position to throw a accurate pass. Tackles will push/ ride edge rushers past the pocket if there able when they get beat to the outside to cut of the angle to the qb depending on the depth of the qbs drop. While the pocket wasn't 100% clean for locker it was defiantly more then adequate for him to maintain his balance and slide up rather than run/ jump.

Manning, Rivers, Rodgers,Ryan,Brees, Brady ect are all great at sliding to avoid pressure while being in position to pass. There was no reason from the video posted for Locker to run, shuffle,jump pass in that situation and in fact made the play more difficult to make. Locker looks like a third baseman trying to make a play at first to get a out rather than a qb trying to help his line and make a accurate pass. Why is this really being argued when it is so obvious ?

[Lavarleap56]

The actual debate on the discussed play should be that he missed the receiver when he was open in the first window because of indecision. While waiting for the receiver to clear to another passing window he then began to run/shuffle up and wouldn't be able to gather himself to make the pass with proper footwork. So while the completion was made the actual play has a lot of negatives.

[darrelgreenie]

On this specific play that is being discussed lockers footwork is a negative and not ideal.........There was no reason from the video posted for Locker to run, shuffle,jump pass in that situation and in fact made the play more difficult to make.........Why is this really being argued when it is so obvious?

We already agreed that his feet weren't set.

It was the genesis of the entire conversation.

But, you may have missed that part.

You're right about the pass being more difficult b/c his feet aren't set.

And there are reasons to run:

o the pocket is collapsing and Locker has good reason not to expect the pocket to hold up

o a running lane was open and Locker is a very good runner-The commentator even says "Locker has room to run"

And the reason Mahon's and I were talking about that play is because we like to talk football.

Here is where the convo started:

You might recall a particular throw from the USC game where he faces pressure then steps up in the pocket and actually jumps to complete the pass.

I mention this b/c he seemed to jump for no reason at all.

But, and i'm just spit balling here i think he jumped b/c his feet weren't right or weren't set for him to throw and by jumping he just by-passed that whole footwork process and relied on his throwing mechanics....................I can post the vid later, to help clarify.

Jake might be one of those QB that really needs to have his feet set to throw accurately which is for a lot of QBs.

---------- Post added February-1st-2011 at 12:46 AM ----------

The actual debate on the discussed play should be that he missed the receiver when he was open in the first window because of indecision. While waiting for the receiver to clear to another passing window he then began to run/shuffle up and wouldn't be able to gather himself to make the pass with proper footwork. So while the completion was made the actual play has a lot of negatives.

You can't even see Goodwin in the frame so how can you tell if he was even open for Locker to 'miss'?

Kearse is the slot receiver that runs a shallow cross/drag route moving from left right.

Kearse would have been well short of the 1st down marker and would likely get tackled short of the sticks.

Also Kearse had at least 2 drops that game (which is typical for him); Kearse dropped what would have been a 1st down on the previous down @1:09

The commentator @2:02

I think he[Locker] waited because I'm not sure he wanted to throw it to Jermaine Kearse, I hate to say that but I think he waited 'til he saw someone else to throw the ball to

[Lavarleap56]

I understand the conversation greenie but once again YouTube sideline views only show so much.I get that you see potential and different characteristics in locker than others and respect that.

[Newera]

I have a sneaky suspicion that Locker is gonna fall like Quinn. I wouldn't go to New York. Just sayin.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

looks like lockers stock is falling pretty hard. maybe he wont be our guy after all. only a great combine can save him at this point.

[#98QBKiller]

looks like lockers stock is falling pretty hard. maybe he wont be our guy after all. only a great combine can save him at this point.

I don't even think that will save him honestly. He's already a pretty freakish athlete, so teams will be expecting him to blow it up at the Combine.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

looks like lockers stock is falling pretty hard. maybe he wont be our guy after all. only a great combine can save him at this point.

So, would people be OK either trading down to get him/just grabbing him later in the draft or does he appear to be a lost cause at the NFL level?

[Riggo#44]

I don't even think that will save him honestly. He's already a pretty freakish athlete, so teams will be expecting him to blow it up at the Combine.

It will be very interesting to see where he goes -- I, for one, have completely fallen off his bandwagon. In fact, I've fallen off the Draft-a-QB Bandwagon entirely. At #10 I want Aldon Smith, Von Miller or a trade back for Kerrigan, Ayers, Cam Jordan etc. And then some combination of Hudson/Wisnewski/Taylor etc. in the 2nd.

[#98QBKiller]

It will be very interesting to see where he goes -- I, for one, have completely fallen off his bandwagon. In fact, I've fallen off the Draft-a-QB Bandwagon entirely. At #10 I want Aldon Smith, Von Miller or a trade back for Kerrigan, Ayers, Cam Jordan etc. And then some combination of Hudson/Wisnewski/Taylor etc. in the 2nd.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I'm losing faith in the crop of QBs available at this point and considering the question marks surrounding these guys, I'd rather see us take an impact front 7 player in the first round. Von Miller and Phil Taylor if he's there in round 2 would be a great draft that would show improvement on the field immediately IMO.

However, I know there's a good chance Taylor won't be there in the 2nd so I'd be more than happy to have someone like Wisniewski if he's there or even a WR like Leonard Hankerson or Titus Young.

We have so many holes, I'd rather see us get players that are more probable to work out than QB, which probably carries the highest bust factor.

[Mahons21]

I think in general when a QB is trying to make a play on the move/scrambling/mid-scramble they're footwork is gonna get messy, just look at any QB even Aaron Rodgers often ends up throwing goofy foot when he's on the run.

I understand your point but imo its kinda unfair from an assessment point of view to grade his footwork as a minus on that play, afterall its a crucial 4th and 10 and he does in fact make the play.

That's the thing though, the footwork doesn't always have to get messy. That's why I showed you the Drew Brees clip, and pointed to a play where he's in "ad-lib" mode and he still keeps his base extremely wide.

I disagree that the pocket is clean.

And in an ideal situation yes I would agree with your statement above.

In a clean pocket with no pressure he wouldn't need to step up through the pocket b/c he's RT wouldn't be on the verge of getting beat.(and does get beat)

In a clean pocket he could just sit in the pocket and do exactly what you suggest stay alive in the pocket and keep a throwing base.

But he's steps up through the pocket and he's in between running and throwing because he knows he can't stay where he is (no mans land) b/c defenders are closing in.

I agree not a perfect pocket, however still an above average pocket. He gets almost 3 full seconds to throw from his drop-back, and he's got a clean lane to step up into.

In addition the RT/RG get beat because Locker steps up, if he actually stood still in the back he would have a.) had more time, b.) not been forced to change his base, but in my opinion Locker likes to get outside the pocket, because he isn't very comfortable throwing the ball inside the pocket.

I understand the two previous statements might sound kind of contradictory, so here's an explanation of what I would like to see. I would like Locker to stand tall in the pocket, and then once he makes his read, THEN he can step up and deliver the ball.

BTW-I'm a big time Drew Brees fan but that's a highlight reel, if I posted Locker's highlight reel you would see good pocket presence there too.

It's not a highlight reel of footwork though, and as you've said Lockers pass is on 4th and 10 and he makes the play, who's to say that this specific play we're discussing couldn't make a highlight reel of Lockers?

I get the feeling your using the play we're talking about to represent Locker footwork in general which i believe is a different discussion.

Sorry I didn't mean to, I don't know anywhere near enough about Locker's footwork in general to make any assertion on it. I have heard that there's a hitch in his footwork, but that isn't what I saw on the specific play we've been discussing,

I would love to talk about Locker footwork and pocket presence from this game.

But, I would have to re-watch the vid w/ a focus on footwork.

But, I'm game if you are.

Hail

I'm game too, think I'll have some time tonight to get it done. I'll PM you with a link to the post soon as I finish.

---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 11:42 AM ----------

looks like lockers stock is falling pretty hard. maybe he wont be our guy after all. only a great combine can save him at this point.

Haven't you been arguing that Locker is still a top of the first round prospect? Wasn't it your opinion that somebody can't get that much worse in one season?

[darrelgreenie]

That's the thing though, the footwork doesn't always have to get messy.

I agree that it doesn't always have to get messy when QBs are in scramble/adlib mode.

All I'm saying is that I don't think its a fair assessment to knock a QBs footwork in a situation where they are adlibbing/making a play.

Its funny yesterday I saw the following clip listen to what Warner says about QBs footwork:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-super-bowl/09000d5d81e13b5d/McNabb-Warner-on-Rodgers-Big-Ben

I agree not a perfect pocket, however still an above average pocket. He gets almost 3 full seconds to throw from his drop-back, and he's got a clean lane to step up into.

I agree he had a decent pocket at the time and he has a clean lane to step through.

From the snap to his drop back before he steps up? By my watch its under 2 seconds.

The throw is one the way by the 3 second mark.

In addition the RT/RG get beat because Locker steps up, if he actually stood still in the back he would have a.) had more time, b.) not been forced to change his base

I agree that facing a 3 man rush he should have more time staying in the pocket and there likely isn't a need to change his platform.

But again he's trying to make a play and he had running lane where he may have been able to run for the 1st down.

Sure he could sit and wait and see what develops and hope his protection holds up but its 4th down and imo he put himself in a position to make a play.

but in my opinion Locker likes to get outside the pocket, because he isn't very comfortable throwing the ball inside the pocket.

To be fair just 2 plays earlier he stays in the pocket and his LT gets beat and he gets sacked/stripped.

Locker likes to get out of the pocket b/c that's how playmaking QBs make plays when the pass protection breaks down and Washington pass protection breaksdown often.

In the Apple cup there was a graphic that showed Washington had 15 different combinations along the OL.

A major part of Sarkisians gameplan is centered on getting Locker outside the pocket b/c of the pass protection issues.

I understand the two previous statements might sound kind of contradictory, so here's an explanation of what I would like to see. I would like Locker to stand tall in the pocket, and then once he makes his read, THEN he can step up and deliver the ball.

I completely understand your point and I agree in general but I don't think they apply for this specific play.

I just don't think any coach in the world would give Locker a negative grade on this play.

I'm game too, think I'll have some time tonight to get it done. I'll PM you with a link to the post soon as I finish.

Check out this link: http://www.debartolosportsu.com/files/articles/Evaluation_Sample.pdf

Its a sample QB game evaluation sheet.

-Good Post

[Mahons21]

I agree that it doesn't always have to get messy when QBs are in scramble/adlib mode.

All I'm saying is that I don't think its a fair assessment to knock a QBs footwork in a situation where they are adlibbing/making a play.

Its funny yesterday I saw the following clip listen to what Warner says about QBs footwork:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-super-bowl/09000d5d81e13b5d/McNabb-Warner-on-Rodgers-Big-Ben

Nice i'm excited to give it a listen when I get home, no sound right now.

I agree he had a decent pocket at the time and he has a clean lane to step through.

From the snap to his drop back before he steps up? By my watch its under 2 seconds.

The throw is one the way by the 3 second mark.

You're right, I tried timing it on my own rather than watching the clock... Not very logical.

I agree that facing a 3 man rush he should have more time staying in the pocket and there likely isn't a need to change his platform.

But again he's trying to make a play and he had running lane where he may have been able to run for the 1st down.

Sure he could sit and wait and see what develops and hope his protection holds up but its 4th down and imo he put himself in a position to make a play.

I don't think he gave the play adequate time to develop prior to taking off running, but I honestly don't know. I understand he's trying to make a play, but I'd rather see a QB trying to make a play with their arm than their feet.

To be fair just 2 plays earlier he stays in the pocket and his LT gets beat and he gets sacked/stripped.

Locker likes to get out of the pocket b/c that's how playmaking QBs make plays when the pass protection breaks down and Washington pass protection breaksdown often.

In the Apple cup there was a graphic that showed Washington had 15 different combinations along the OL.

A major part of Sarkisians gameplan is centered on getting Locker outside the pocket b/c of the pass protection issues.

Problem is I think he likes it out of the pocket more than in the pocket, and this was even evident in the SB when he wasn't behind Washington's o-line. Having a play-making QB is a huge plus, if plays break down, but this QB also needs to be able to run the offense in rhythm, on plays that aren't breaking down. The QB will have to make quick reads from inside the pocket, and find throwing lanes, this is where I'm afraid Locker might have some difficulty.

I completely understand your point and I agree in general but I don't think they apply for this specific play.

I just don't think any coach in the world would give Locker a negative grade on this play.

I wouldn't either he completes a 4th and 10, anyone who gives that a negative grade doesn't know squat about football. I'm just nit-picking specific things I don't find ideal on that play. Basically saying what ideally I would like to see from a Qb on that given play, other than the obvious 1st down.

Check out this link: http://www.debartolosportsu.com/files/articles/Evaluation_Sample.pdf

Its a sample QB game evaluation sheet.

Nice template, I might work on something similar in excel, to put our own evaluations into a table.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't think he gave the play adequate time to develop prior to taking off running, but I honestly don't know. I understand he's trying to make a play, but I'd rather see a QB trying to make a play with their arm than their feet.

He probably didn't give the play time to develop from the pocket.

But, he kept himself in a position to make a play either by running or by throwing (which he did).

Problem is I think he likes it out of the pocket more than in the pocket, and this was even evident in the SB when he wasn't behind Washington's o-line. Having a play-making QB is a huge plus, if plays break down, but this QB also needs to be able to run the offense in rhythm, on plays that aren't breaking down. The QB will have to make quick reads from inside the pocket, and find throwing lanes, this is where I'm afraid Locker might have some difficulty.

I don't think Locker would be the only QB that likes being outside the pocket more then inside the pocket.

I don't think it make sense to make use the SB to label a QBs game.

IIRC I didn't see Locker move outside the pocket more then twice during the SB one time he made a nice play the second time he gained yards but fumbled.

I also saw Stanzi, McElroy and Kaepernick leave the pocket.

I think Locker's perception doesn't quite match the reality when it comes to making reads and throwing from the pocket.

If we're using this game I thought he played well from both inside and outside the pocket.

Nice template, I might work on something similar in excel, to put our own evaluations into a table.

Cool.

BTW-I re-watched the game.

I didn't see many plays with negative footwork maybe plays #23 and 31.

[Mahons21]

He probably didn't give the play time to develop from the pocket.

But, he kept himself in a position to make a play either by running or by throwing (which he did).

Agree with everything said.

I don't think Locker would be the only QB that likes being outside the pocket more then inside the pocket.

I don't think it make sense to make use the SB to label a QBs game.

IIRC I didn't see Locker move outside the pocket more then twice during the SB one time he made a nice play the second time he gained yards but fumbled.

I don't think Locker is the only QB that likes being outside the pocket more, but the play-making QB's in the NFL ie Rodgers/Big Ben can get it done inside the pocket as well as outside, if not better.

I'm not trying to use the SB to label Locker's game, I was only referencing the game, because he had an adequate o-line and a scheme that didn't have him roll-out, bootleg every single play, and unfortunately for Locker he didn't fare very well.

I also saw Stanzi, McElroy and Kaepernick leave the pocket.

I think Locker's perception doesn't quite match the reality when it comes to making reads and throwing from the pocket.

If we're using this game I thought he played well from both inside and outside the pocket.

All QB's will leave the pocket at sometime, I just don't want a QB who's looking to escape the pocket on every down. In this game particular, I though Locker did better outside the pocket, i'll add that to my footwork analysis later.

Cool.

BTW-I re-watched the game.

I didn't see many plays with negative footwork maybe plays #23 and 31.

Nice, well I'll check it out and give you my "expert" opinion, but if it's as good as you say it is, it might not need a big post of its own.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't think Locker is the only QB that likes being outside the pocket more, but the play-making QB's in the NFL ie Rodgers/Big Ben can get it done inside the pocket as well as outside, if not better.

I agree but just b/c a player might like being outside the pocket more doesn't mean they can't get it done form the inside of the pocket.

I'm not trying to use the SB to label Locker's game, I was only referencing the game, because he had an adequate o-line and a scheme that didn't have him roll-out, bootleg every single play, and unfortunately for Locker he didn't fare very well.

You might not be trying but trying to use the SB to label Locker but it seems that way.

For example this thread contains an entire game cut-up but you're using 10 plays from an all-star game to make your point.

Also, I'm curious what makes you say Locker didn't fair very well?

All QB's will leave the pocket at sometime, I just don't want a QB who's looking to escape the pocket on every down. In this game particular, I though Locker did better outside the pocket, i'll add that to my footwork analysis later.

Again it seems like your using one play to making a causal leap from the play to represent his entire game.

You're already imo assuming your conclusion which is that Locker is looking to escape the pocket every down.

In this game I think Locker was excellent outside the pocket but he was good from inside the pocket also.

but if it's as good as you say it is, it might not need a big post of its own.

But wouldn't you think the reverse if Locker problems are bad enough to lower his draft status shouldn't they be evident in every game?