Jason Campbell junk time statistics (edited, additional QB's added)

[Mahons21]

It was against the 07 Patriots, not the 08 Patriots...the 07 Patriots had the #6 passing defense in the league. the 2010 Eagles had the #14 passing defense in the league.

Why are you showing me their rankings?

And again, in your OP you make zero mention of whether or not opposing defenses kept blitzing, went into prevent, or changed their attacking style in any way...you merely mentioned that it was "garbage time".

I thought it was a given...

---------- Post added January-11th-2011 at 01:02 PM ----------

he's already admitted to not watching any of the games he's using as his reference so how is he supposed to know stuff like that?

Actually I'm referencing 2009 Jason Campbell, and 2010 Redskins QBs and I've watched every single on of those games. Clearly we irritate one another, so I'll kindly ask you to refrain from posting in this thread, in the hope that it won't turn into meaningless back and forth drivel.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Why are you showing me their rankings?

You're actually asking this question? lol :rotflmao:

You said McNabb did more in the blowout against the Eagles than Campbell did in the blowout against the Patriots. So I would imagine that going up against the #6 passing defense in a blowout would be a bit harder than going up against the #14 passing defense in a blow out.

If you needed that spelled out to you, then that tells me all I need to know about your approach to the subject of this thread.

And for the record, Campbell went up against the #4 scoring defense in that blowout against the Pats...McNabb went up against the #21 scoring defense in that blowout to the Eagles. But I know, needless stats that play no role in the discussion or the debate.

---------- Post added January-11th-2011 at 10:07 AM ----------

he's already admitted to not watching any of the games he's using as his reference so how is he supposed to know stuff like that?

come on califan, you know that being objective has no place in JC debates. it hasn't for the last 5 years.

Yeah, I know lol...I think this thread has already gone waaaaay downhill just from the few back-and-forths that have taken place in it already.

[tiger187126]

Actually I'm referencing 2009 Jason Campbell, and 2010 Redskins QBs and I've watched every single on of those games. Clearly we irritate one another, so I'll kindly ask you to refrain from posting in this thread, in the hope that it won't turn into meaningless back and forth drivel.

obviously anyone who doesn't hate campbell irritates you, so i'm gonna go ahead and keep posting. but thanks for the offer.

so lets compare grossman/mcnabbs mighty '10 season with JC's far inferior '09 season.

6-10 vs. 4-12. a debate for the ages. going purely off your memory of who laid down and played prevent a year ago we are going to determine that a 13 year pro, 2nd overall pick, 6 time pro bowler, and as some claim future HoF qb is better than a 25th overall, 5 year pro.

it can't get more exciting than this. elway vs. marino, manning vs. brady. brown vs. payton.

while we're at it, how about we compare receivers, o-line, and rbs.

[Mahons21]

Yeah, I know lol...I think this thread has already gone waaaaay downhill just from the few back-and-forths that have taken place in it already.

Then I'll kindly ask you as well to refrain from posting in the thread.

[tiger187126]

Then I'll kindly ask you as well to refrain from posting in the thread.

exactly, if you don't agree, don't post.

we get your "logic" mahons.

[Mahons21]

exactly, if you don't agree, don't post.

we get your "logic" mahons.

Seriously dude? You didn't even read the OP, nor have you even looked through previous posts in this thread to see that I have no problem debating with someone who I disagree with. This is irritating for the both of us, so please respect the time I took to look over these stats and either look at the OP and explain what conclusions you might draw from those statistics, or if you can't draw any, then you don't have to post.

This is my post from page 1 to what I assume would be someone who thinks more highly of Jason Campbell than I do:

Please share, I didn't get to watch much of the Oakland Raiders this year, and I'd love to see what games he made the passes for the Raiders to come back and win

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Then I'll kindly ask you as well to refrain from posting in the thread.

Why? I didn't say ME posting has caused this thread to go way downhill lol...I said the back-and-forths have. So it would make sense for me to just avoid back-and-forths that I feel are leading to little more than the same ol' misdirections and point-changing in mid-debate. But that doesn't mean I don't need to post anymore. :thumbsup:

[tiger187126]

Seriously dude? You didn't even read the OP, nor have you even looked through previous posts in this thread to see that I have no problem debating with someone who I disagree with. This is irritating for the both of us, so please respect the time I took to look over these stats and either look at the OP and explain what conclusions you might draw from those statistics, or if you can't draw any, then you don't have to post.

you also don't have to post "don't post" when califan and i have a problem with how you arrived at your numbers.

stats aren't always true and there's a lot in how you derive them.

you are using flawed logic to begin with comparing a jim zorn run redskins team with a mike shannahan run one. you're comparing trent williams as your starting left tackle to stephon heyer as your starting left tackle. you're comparing brandon banks returning punts to randle el returning punts. you're comparing rock cartwright and quinton groves as your running backs to keiland williams and ryan torrain as your running backs. you're comparing a guy calling plays for half a season who had never called plays in the nfl and a guy who was retired an calling bingos calling plays to a guy who just came from calling plays for the #1 passing offense in the nfl calling plays.

there's my problem with your logic. it's apples to oranges. not to mention the "junk time" statistic as written by mahons is completely fabricated with the intention of making JC look as bad as possible.

you see this isn't a hypothesis, it's a vendetta.

[addicted]

I've seen some of the Oakland boards, they're already sick of the check down passes.

Take away Oakland's awesome running attack and you have a 2 win QB.

Nailed it. Campbell is a QB you use with a powerful rushing game without one he is terrible. He is not a typical QB in the sense that he will win games when given the time in the pocket. He is most certinily never going to be confused with being a "franchise QB". He's only ever had success when the rushing game on his team either here or in Oakland or in college were going to the rush first and using his arm as a last resort. Some call this a game manager, I personally call it a waste of time. If you are looking for a guy who can hand off he's great, looking for a QB who can lead you to wins then he aint that guy and never has been

[tiger187126]

Nailed it. Campbell is a QB you use with a powerful rushing game without one he is terrible. He is not a typical QB in the sense that he will win games when given the time in the pocket. He is most certinily never going to be confused with being a "franchise QB". He's only ever had success when the rushing game on his team either here or in Oakland or in college were going to the rush first and using his arm as a last resort. Some call this a game manager, I personally call it a waste of time. If you are looking for a guy who can hand off he's great, looking for a QB who can lead you to wins then he aint that guy and never has been

man you're right! if only we had a franchise qb who could throw deep and not check down all the time:

donovan mcnabb: 7.2 average

jason campbell: 7.26 average

[elkabong82]

The entire "garbage time" stats are based exclusively on an assumption that teams ran a prevent defense late. OP has stated previously that he, like most of us, didn't watch many Raiders games, so until the assumption is erased and its proven all the stats came from true garbage time against prevent, none of the conclusions can be valid.

[tiger187126]

The entire "garbage time" stats are based exclusively on an assumption that teams ran a prevent defense late. OP has stated previously that he, like most of us, didn't watch many Raiders games, so until the assumption is erased and its proven all the stats came from true garbage time against prevent, none of the conclusions can be valid.

don't worry i made the same mistake. you see he's comparing last years jason campbell to this years donovan mcnabb, in the meantime there are drive by shots at campbell's performance this year.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The entire "garbage time" stats are based exclusively on an assumption that teams ran a prevent defense late. OP has stated previously that he, like most of us, didn't watch many Raiders games, so until the assumption is erased and its proven all the stats came from true garbage time against prevent, none of the conclusions can be valid.

He's comparing JC in 2009 while with the Redskins, though...not JC in 2010 while with the Raiders.

[tiger187126]

He's comparing JC in 2009 while with the Redskins, though...not JC in 2010 while with the Raiders.

so basically i want to break this down:

in a vacuum '09 JC < '10 McNabb/Grossman

for the purpose of this thread, it's based on "junk time" stats, which were created in mahon's mind.

however, what is not included in this thread is logic. the kind of logic to, i dunno, compare situations as opposed to just a general statement of apples to apples.

jim zorn vs. mike shannahan

jim zorn/bingo caller vs. kyle shannahan

quinton groves/rock cartwright vs. keiland williams/ryan torrain

trent williams/jamaal brown vs. stephon heyer/100 other guys

santana moss/anthony armstrong vs. santana moss/randle el

do none of these mean anything to you?

[Mahons21]

The entire "garbage time" stats are based exclusively on an assumption that teams ran a prevent defense late. OP has stated previously that he, like most of us, didn't watch many Raiders games, so until the assumption is erased and its proven all the stats came from true garbage time against prevent, none of the conclusions can be valid.

The OP didn't even discuss Jason Campbell's raiders stats... However, I don't remember if in every instance teams were in a prevent defense in the stats I'm showing. But for the most part teams will play a prevent defense when in a 2 score games and not much time to go. Since I don't have game film I had to create a concrete definition of when garbage time might occur. I chose 2 score games with less than 5 minutes, if you have film or a better indicator please by all means share.

---------- Post added January-11th-2011 at 02:03 PM ----------

Statistics of both Jason Campbell and 2010 Redskins starting QB's in 1 score games with 5 minutes or less to play have been added to the OP.

[elkabong82]

He's comparing JC in 2009 while with the Redskins, though...not JC in 2010 while with the Raiders.

Even still, I doubt he's got the number of times a prevent was actually faced correct, because he set-up scoring parameters rather than just saying "these teams went into prevent at this point, and here are the stats compiled then."

Plus, the JC '09 stuff has been argued relentlessly, it's a year old argument. Silly me for assuming there was talk of JC's performance THIS year in relation to garbage time stats, lol. I see how a comparison from '09 JC to '10 JC would help, but how does a comparison to a different Redskins team count as a valid comparison when there is no indication whatsoever of how the rest of the league fared in those situations, plus I don't see how it's relevant moreso than JC's '10 performance in determining if JC is decent or if he compiles a lot of his stats in junk time.

How about taking all his stats from the first 3 quarters and seeing how much that % is of his whole stats, and then comparing that % to the other QBs in the NFL? Then you could see if JC really is padding stats in the 4th or if he's on par with the rest of the league?

[Thinking Skins]

Agreed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. JC is an average QB nothing more nothing less. No he isn't a franchise QB (Manning, Rodgers, Brady) but he is not a horrible QB either (JaMarcus, Matt Moore, Matt Lienart).

He is on another team now. Isn't that what you wanted? I mean he is even in the AFC so you don't even have to watch his games if you don't want to. We didn't even play Oakland this year! I was never as hard on him as a lot of people were and I have watched him play ZERO times since he's left. He's not a Redskin anymore so I don't care. I suggest letting it go.

I will agree with this and I wish we would have kept Campbell and merely brought in some competition for him (Grossman) or a young guy like Beck or or Chase Daniels to groom for the future. I gave up on Campbell becoming elite, but that doesn't mean he can't be a servicable QB. The key point in Oakland, no matter how you look at their wins, he didn't lose games and they were able to build an offense around a running game. I'd have no problem with something like that here.

[darrelgreenie]

These are the statistics, I'm curious to see what conclusions others will draw from them.

Dude.

We get it.

You don't like Campbell and you will never think he's a good QB.

You will always look for some obscure statisitcal formula to support your opinion of Campbell; b/c otherwise its hard to make the statements you make about Campbell b/c the regular stats don't support it.

In addition, I'm too lazy now but I'd eventually like to look at comp % as well, and possibly look at QB's from different teams "junk-time" statistics to compare as well.

The lazy unexplored portion of this theory is the portion that would actually give it a semblance of merit.

And i think what you'll find is that Campbell's 'garbage' time stats will likely be somewhere in the middle of the pack b/c he's an average QB.

Then you'll have to find some other method to prove your opinion of Campbell.

[Mahons21]

Rather than attacking the OP, why not bring forth stats of your own? Why not show Jason Campbell's stats this season if you believe they are more relevant. I put stats forth for the reader to draw a conclusion, if you don't want to draw a conclusion I won't force you, but please make an attempt to bring something to the debate. Stop acting like congressmen.

DG, I agree it would be smart to incorporate other QBs. Here's the problem I ran into, a lot of good NFL QB's play on good teams so there won't be a lot of instances that qualify for the less than 5 minutes to play in a 2 score game. Possibly I could look at 3 different levels of QB; like Manning, Cassell, Clausen.

Also dude, it takes some time to look over all the #'s any help would be appreciated it.

[tiger187126]

But for the most part teams will play a prevent defense when in a 2 score games and not much time to go. Since I don't have game film I had to create a concrete definition of when garbage time might occur. I chose 2 score games with less than 5 minutes, if you have film or a better indicator please by all means share..

in madden. you don't watch enough nfl obviously to be able to tell what a prevent defense is. i see carlos play 10 yards off a receiver in the first quarter, isn't that playing soft? so is that prevent? houston is ranked dead last against the pass and gave up a QB rating of 100+ on average this year. aren't they soft? do they play nonstop prevent? do teams blitz and play soft? if they blitz and play soft is it prevent?

here's my "better indicator" for you. don't force stats where they aren't. don't make up a statistic if you openly admit that you can't prove the main point behind it.

don't give me a bucket with holes poked in it and tell me that it holds water.

---------- Post added January-11th-2011 at 02:16 PM ----------

Rather than attacking the OP, why not bring forth stats of your own? Why not show Jason Campbell's stats this season if you believe they are more relevant. I put stats forth for the reader to draw a conclusion, if you don't want to draw a conclusion I won't force you, but please make an attempt to bring something to the debate. Stop acting like congressmen.

how about jc's redzone production last year vs. mcnabb's this year?

look it up and get back to me. unless you aren't trying to win by scoring in the redzone.

[Conn]

Rather than attacking the OP

To be fair, we're only on page 3 of this thread...most of the conversation is going to be about attacking or supporting the OP. Abandoning it so early and demanding another avenue of argument doesn't look good.

[Passizle]

"Garbage time" stats are a "garbage time" argument.

Answer me this Mahons? Yes or No. Do you consider Vicks performance in the big comeback against the Giants this year "padding his stats in junk time"?

[darrelgreenie]

Top 10 Teams in rushing attempts:

KC-556

Jets-534

Jags-512

Oakland-504

Falcons-497

Ravens-487

Giants-480

Steelers-471

Chargers-457

Pats-454

Does Oakland have better non-RB weapons then any of the above teams?

Maybe the Jags?

[Mahons21]

To be fair, we're only on page 3 of this thread...most of the conversation is going to be about attacking or supporting the OP. Abandoning it so early and demanding another avenue of argument doesn't look good.

Thing is I wasn't really trying to make a point in the OP. Only trying to put forth a set of numbers to see what conclusions others drew from them. Still waiting on that..

[Rudechain]

I have to wonder why a Redskins fan would still feel the need to continue posting about Jason. In particular when these people have electronically screamed to "high heaven" of how bad this quarterback is and how they despise him being on the Redskins.

So they get their wish, the quarterback is traded and a whole season later, they are still talking about him.

Did JC pee in your wheaties or something?