Art Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 Originally posted by Long n Left With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more with the philosophy that the FO just allow the coach to do what he wants with the football personnel. In today's NFL there are far more variables than "who does the coach like best to make the best team." Those most certainly include the salary cap, where more than one or two FO personnel are constantly trying to formulate not only a plan for the year, but a proactive plan for 3 or more years down the road. I think it sucks, but that's life in the NFL today. Many excellent head coaches in the NFL are poor General Managers, and need that extra head or two or three around to help make the most informed decision with regards to the "talent" on the team. On almost every team in the NFL it is the owner who makes the final roster decisions when the FO and coach cannot agree. Why then is it such upheaval at Redskins Park? Because it's DAN SNYDER making the decision, giving just that much more fuel to the media to fan their sacrificial fire. Heck, even pre salary cap, Gibbs and Bethard, then Casserly often had to dos about who to keep and who to cut. Those disagreements were always solved by JKC making the final decision. No one cast aspersions his way because the Skins won Super Bowls. Also, with no salary cap to worry about, JKC would sign a proven vet to play a role, if the need be. I'm not a big Danny fan as a person. He's brash, arrogant, ****ey, and the epitome of nuveau riche, but I love having him as owner of my NFL team for many of the same reasons. He's willing to spend to make this team good, and he tries to get the most for his fiscal dollar. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to HIS team. And, hopefully, this whole thing about him superceding SS will be water far under the bridge in a couple years when the Skins become a Super Bowl contender. LnL, We're not saying the coach should have free reign here. Obviously, I agree with keeping McCullough over Watson because the front office can point to his unique athletic gifts and say the reward potential there is just too high to allow a change. But in the case of Wuerffel when you're really putting his roster spot up against guys NO ONE will have any interest in, you give your head coach what he wants. If he needs a blankie, let him have it. If he wants to play the blanket, grin and bear it. He's your coach. If you dictate who he can and can't play you'll destroy a team because players will know they can do what they want if they have the front office on their side. You can't instill discipline in such an environment. The head coach has to have the ability to play who he wants and when. I don't think we have that here. I think Marvin Lewis wanted to bench Arrington at times last year but wasn't allowed to. That's not good. Neither is overriding Spurrier's wishes on Wuerffel for the likes of Grant or Franz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long n Left Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 I don't get the impression the front office "dictates" anything when it comes to player personnel on the field. What I think happened is something that happens all over the NFL this time of year. There was an impasse between GM and coach over a player or two, and the BIG KAHUNA had to make the final decision. Now if it's a "blankie" a coach needs for security, maybe he's not the right man for the job. Rarely, if ever, does an employee, even one as highly paid and regarded by the boss as SS, get everything he wants. the boss made a decision, you didn't like it, but it's time to move on and do the job. To make more of this situation is only a detriment to the team as a whole. And all of this over something I see as a non-issue, but with Danny Boy, non-issues seem to have a way of becoming issues. One other question. Can DW play special teams? If he's really that integral to the health of this franchise, then Snyder should definitely offer him a coaching contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 When we win this season without waffle this will be a moot point. I'm a Danny Snyder fan and proud of it. I like the idea of him being the tie breaking vote as we had with Jack kent cooke. And we have history of how emotion driven actions by coaches instead of clear thinking by the GM comes back to bite us in the a$$.... hello drafting Desmond Howard instead keeping two number one picks. Waffle sucks and if a catstrophe occurs he is on speed dial. But I'd rather go with Hamsamich than see ducks in FedEx again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montilar Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 But, when it comes to Wuerffel, the FO can't make that claim with Franz or Grant. Neither of those guys are guys you want on the field all that much either. The only response to that is long and let's response: Can Weurfel play special teams? I suspect both Orantes grant and Franz made it to play special teams. And that could be good as it means they are actually trying to do something about the special teams coverages. Now if Franz and Grant are not on special teams, then Watson could of been easily kept. Or Weurfel if you trust Spurrier to keep him off the field. Again, if Weurfel is such a great mentor, make him a coach. He can teach and help spurrier all he wants then. And not waste a roster spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 It doesn't matter if Wuerffel can play special teams. You have six receivers. You have four running backs. You have NINE defensive linemen. If you don't have bodies for special teams then you're doing something wrong. And, can anyone seriously say they'd rather have Grant playing special teams over Mason? I don't think you could. So, while I've no doubt these guys will be on special teams, it seems to me that filling the special teams role should already have been done and not at the expense of your third QB. In fact, why didn't we keep Watson over Grant? Watson can play special teams. And, he's better to actually have around. You see the point? Grant and Franz aren't such special teams demons -- at least that we know of -- that their benefit overrides the value of Wuerffel on Ramsey or just keeping Watson in general. I'd have kept McCullough over Watson due to the superior athletic gifts you pray evolve to make an NFL player. But, if you wanted special teams, I'd have kept Watson around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 agree on watson. disagree on wuerffel. 53 spots.....hmmmm...keep someone we seem to all agree we don't want on the field for any sustained period of time or someone who might actually contribute at game time - say special teams. keeping papa happy isn't the objective either. if danny is a positive influence and builds others then bring him onboard in another capacity. just not as a football player when the team can benefit more from other, more takented athletes. SOS should focus on winning - not on the status of his extended family. he has extracted $25 mil from snyder, so he has already had the last laugh. he needs to shut up and get the job done - then he can mope and whine. NOTHING LIKE A WINNER!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Brown #43 Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Originally posted by fansince62 hmmmm...keep someone we seem to all agree we don't want on the field for any sustained period of time or someone who might actually contribute at game time - say special teams. How many teams actually want to see their 3rd string QB on the field for a sustained period of time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 Al, That's terrible logic man. Name a single No. 3 QB in the league that any fan of the team wants on the field for any sustained period of time? Carson Palmer in Cincy is about the only name that comes to mind. The third QB is the emergency QB. There's a reason 29 other teams carry that roster spot. And that's to hopefully get you through short-term need. If your logic was sound, only one or two teams would dare keep a third QB in favor of another special teamer. I've long felt more comfortable with the prospects of Wuerffel on the field for us if Ramsey sputters than for Rob Johnson to be there. Johnson, though, is a more talented athlete. Wuerffel did well for us last year. He led us to an opening drive score against Tennessee before getting hurt. He helped us win the Rams game with a very efficient performance. He was actually pretty good against Dallas. Can't really fault him for the game changing INT at least. Even against the Giants where the offense was bogging down, it wasn't like he wasn't playing somewhat effectively. Over a short period, I'd much rather have Wuerffel running THIS offense than Johnson. Perhaps that makes me crazy. But, then I think about what Johnson has proven himself as here and before here and I think maybe I'm not all that crazy afterall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Defense Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 The fact is our O is screwed if either DW or Rob Johnson has to take over. Woeful did NOT do well for us last year--he held the ball too long, could not deliver the ball when he tried, and repeatedly showed that deer in the headlights look after getting hit a few times. I am not really coming out in favor of rob johnson mind you, I am just saying that you are going a bit too far in your DW defense. How do you respond to the idea of SS hiring DW as a asst. QB coach? He obviously loves having his angel around, but DW just cannot play in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long n Left Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Art, not just anyone can play special teams, and there are many different "positions" that need to be filled there. Blockers on the line of scrimmage for punt teams for instance. Little guys at that position would get run over in attempts to block kicks. It is also not wise to use starters, or in rotation guys there to risk injuries. Wedge blockers on kickoffs are also normally large guys who can run a little. Tight ends, D linemen, middle backers usually man those positions. It's all a numbers game, and you just try to get the most numbers into your favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryman of the North Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 I likw waffle as the back up because Johnson is a proven cancer who has great physical tools but cannot remain a back up as his ego wont let him anyone remeber another million dollar arm with a ten cent head that undermined a strter then crapped the bed when given his chance(Jeff Goerge anyone,anyone,anyone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 I don't think there is much evidence of Johnson being a team cancer except as in regards to the ridiculous goings on with Flutie Flakes up in Buffalo :laugh: Flutie was 37 years old and Johnson was 28. Who would most front offices have tried to get in the starting lineup? I love the way it is 'obvious' that Johnson if called upon will be worse than Wuerffel on the field for us :laugh: Johnson may not have lived up to this promise as a full-time starter but he has won games in this league, a lot more than DW I might add. Again, I have no problem with keeping DW on the roster as the #3 IF I was sure that Spurrier would not at some point push the panic button and GO TO HIM during the season, something that could retard Ramsey's development. Thus it is more Spurrier's potential weakness than anything about DW himself that leads me to conclude it was a good thing that the sides are going their separate ways. Look, Jay Schroeder and Doug Williams were not great mentors for Mark Rypien and Stan Humphries under Gibbs. These players were by all accounts selfish and focused on what they were going to get out of the given situation. That didn't prevent both youngsters from taking teams to the Super Bowl over the next 5-7 years Ramsey will play, learn and grow with or without DW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Defense Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 and without DW's album of christian rock/ballads. I head a bit of that on the sports junkies and it is as bad as DW's kickoffs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Art....it would seem that the natural conclusion from these posts is this: we need to go out and get two capable back-up QBs!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe7 Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 It seems we have too much in common with the Cowgirls. Why don't Danny and Jerry go start up their own league, and leave the NFL to owners that let people that know what they're doing do their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 That wouldn't be it at all, Al. We have two capable backup QBs with Wuerffel and Johnson. Without Wuerffel we have one. I don't like Johnson, but we'd be kidding ourselves if we didn't recognize his ability to play, especially as a backup in somewhat limited time. I just like Wuerffel much more for this team as a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Originally posted by Oldskool Wuerffel and Spurrier need to come to an understanding that Danny W. cannot play in this league. Not due to a lack of heart, determination or sheer will power; only due to the fact that Danny has a noodle arm. Saying that, he should retire from actively playing football and take a QB coaching position with the Skins. That way he can be there to mentor Ramsey and be the big brother. Got to agree with Oldskool on this one. If indeed DW needs to be around, he does not need to take up a roster spot – let him come back as a coach. If Ramsey needs to learn the system better, he can go to BCS, if he needs a good role model, he can go to church. Art, I love ya bro’ but this is the NFL, not Oprah. ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InstiGATOR Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Well I said some of this on another thread, but I will repeat it here. 1. If Spurrier wants Wuerffel on his team, it is because Spurrier thinks Wuerffel can help the Skins win this year. Spurrier is not about sentiment. Spurrier is about winning this year. 2. I agree Snyder is playing a dangerous game taking away the coaches decision on who is on his roster. My general understand is that the front office gets players, that is acquires players in the NFL, but the coach decides who makes the team generally. Certainly I would think the coach decides how many WRs, QBs, RBs etc that he thinks he wants to carry on the roster to run his offense and defense. 3. In defense of Snyder and the front office, maybe they see their role as protecting the future of the Skins. Maybe they force the coach to keep a young RB over the 3rd QB for the future of the franchise. Certainly coaches have little incentive to look out for the future of the franchise. 4. There is no evidence that Wuerffel would be any kind of coach. There are hundreds of guys who have been good players, good mentors, but not good coaches. I can see the original point of this thread, Wuerffel can show the offense in real time. Even that does not mean he would be a good coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 nor does it mean that he would be a bad coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. D Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Wuerffel just can't play period. No amount of hallucinating can make it so. Nice guy yea. Pro QB hell no. RJ (and his obvious physical talents)I would rather taker a chance on. Let's all remember that the OBC recruited RJ himself! Art, you write well, yet your rhetoric will not sway what the ol' peepers see. DW is safest FAR FAR away from our playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey T Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Quote by Long n Left: I'm not a big Danny fan as a person. He's brash, arrogant, ****ey, and the epitome of nuveau riche, but I love having him as owner of my NFL team for many of the same reasons. He's willing to spend to make this team good, and he tries to get the most for his fiscal dollar. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to HIS team. And, hopefully, this whole thing about him superceding SS will be water far under the bridge in a couple years when the Skins become a Super Bowl contender. Insert Art for Danny, this board for 'this team' and that describes Art to a tee.:laugh: Just kidding ya big guy:cheers: However I have to go along with the Bulldog on this point: Art, the trouble is I could all to easily envision a scenario where Ramsey has 2 or 3 bad games and Spurrier decides to give Wuerffel a shot to 'clear the air' and then we are back to where we were last year. the fact Wuerffel took 4 sacks and looked middling at best in the last preseason game and Spurrier was back to 'well, maybe Danny is still in the running for the #2 job, etc." was a shot across the bow perhaps to the front office that Spurrier's stated commitment to Ramsey might not last 16 games if he had what he considered a comfortable safety valve to go to. I also agree with NavyDave on this point: When we win this season without waffle this will be a moot point. I'm a Danny Snyder fan and proud of it. And we have history of how emotion driven actions by coaches instead of clear thinking by the GM comes back to bite us in the a$$.... hello drafting Desmond Howard instead keeping two number one picks. But I'd rather go with Hamsamich than see ducks in FedEx again All is not lost Art. I agree with your insight on the Watson matter. :40oz: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 My rhetoric ought not be what compels you, Dr. D. But, as a doctor, I recommend you have the ol' peepers checked out, because there's no way you can look at what Wuerffel did in a Redskins uniform last year and conclude he has no ability to play in this system for this team. You can't do it. Yes, the limitations he has as a QB are evident. No doubt about that. But, in this system he can be an acceptable player capable of winning football games. In fact, he was that last year. I'm not a Rob Johnson fan in the slightest and I do recognize how talented he is and how much better a player he potentially can be for us than a Wuerffel could be. But, the irrational disdain for Wuerffel by people who should have used their eyes to redefine him to themselves as a player is breathtaking to me. With hope it won't matter one bit and Johnson gets no playing time. With hope if Johnson does get time he'll look good and nothing here will matter. I just wish I had Wuerffel as well as that hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long n Left Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Just wanted to make one last point about Rob Johnson. All the bashing this guy has taken throughout his career has got to be wearing thin on him. He has made mistakes, but the guy has some serious skills also. What I remember most about RJ, and many seem to forget (especially those in Buffalo who cannot see above 5 feet 9 inches), is that if Tenessee does not make a miracle return 3 years ago, Rob Johnson is a hero. He led the Bills down the field for the game winning score with just seconds on the clock. Then the special? teams went and F'd it up. I actually recall a sports radio caller the next morning suggesting the Bills lost because RJ was QBing. Huh? The guy WON THE GAME...the BIG GAME. If not for some coaching and player gaffes history could be much kinder to mister Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 good point Long n Left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 The only thing that could possibly turn out to be a dumb move IMHO is only having 2 qb's on the roster. That's a move I don't understand that could come back to haunt us. I'm personally glad to see DW go. I'm sure he's a real sweetheart, but the guy cannot throw period. How anyone can say he played well for us last year is beyond me. As soon as everyone figured out how limited he was, DW and our whole offense was completely shut down. We don't have a chance in hell of winning single game with DW at the helm this year, because he got exposed last year. I also don't get the whole, "lets make him a coach" talk b/c he has said publicly he has zero interest in being a coach. If I remember right he wants to focus on his spiritiual beliefs. I think Snyder did the right thing as many owners do every year when coaches and gm's are deadlocked. Like somebody already said, JKC used to do the very same thing. I'm glad we have Snyder because I see him as a guy who wants very badly to win and is willing to do whatever it takes to do exactly that, win. He's made some mistakes (Deion), but he appears to be learning from them. This offseason has mostly been a huge success and the credit has to go to Snyder. We've dramatically increased our talent and somehow we still have caproom. It's not hard to see why Snyder is so successful in the business world. I don't remember anybody complaining about Snyder when he was picking up guys like Coles, Thomas, Fiore, Morton, and Hall except for Jets fans. As far as the "give SOS his blankie" comment. Well let me just say that has got to be the weakest point I have ever read from you Art. You have got to be effin kidding me. Spurrier has gotten 25 million blankies out of Snyder. He needs to quit lamenting about his boy and start winning some football games. It's Snyder's team and he is the boss. He has giving SOS a lot of freedom and shown tremendous confidence in him, but there are times when a boss needs to be the boss and this was one of those times. I'm responsible for 20 people and a million dollar operation. My boss/business owner rarely micromanages me and gives me a lot of rope which I appreciate very much. There have been a few times though when he has stepped in. I never like it when it happens, but I always wind up understanding later on. Spurrier is a big boy, he'll get over it. If not he should build a guest house in his back yard and move DW in so they can be together forever. As far as Watson goes, I agree it was the right move even though I would have been interested to see what we could have gotten for Betts. In the end I think Betts might not be much better then Watson, but we'll have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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