The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I'm really startting to think that Irving is going to disappoint. I don't think he'll suck but he won't live up to his #1 overall status. Maybe like a Devin Harris type of career. Good but not elite. You're basically going off of his high school and AAU tape. He had some nice games at Duke but a vast majority of his opponents were 2nd tier at best.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

DraftExpress Jonathan Givony

Heard Cleveland offered Memphis their #4 pick in exchange for Rudy Gay (w/help of their trade exception). Memphis rejected

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I was just about to post something about that. I think Cleveland's offer is laughable.

Also reading that every team in the top 5 (minus Cleveland at #1) is trying to trade out.

[Gator Bait]

I'm really startting to think that Irving is going to disappoint. I don't think he'll suck but he won't live up to his #1 overall status. Maybe like a Devin Harris type of career. Good but not elite. You're basically going off of his high school and AAU tape. He had some nice games at Duke but a vast majority of his opponents were 2nd tier at best.

disagree completely....he has pg skills and he can shoot/score. He is a better shooter than any of the elite PG prospects in the league now were when they were coming out. Kryrie will be very good.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Based on what?

The great thing about sports is that there will be a right answer.

Edited May 24, 2011 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[Gator Bait]

Based on what?

The great thing about sports is that there will be a right answer.

based on I saw every game of him televised in the DC area...I think he is awesome...like I said...he is a much better shooter than any of the other young elite PGs we have in the NBA right now. Kyrie is a good passer, he can get to the rim, and he can create his own shot. I think he will be very good at the next level.

Kyrie averaged 17 ppg, .529 FG%, .901 FT%, .462 3pt%

you can argue that he missed most of the season or played poor competition all you want, but this is from an 11 game sample size (which I believe is adequate enough to come to the conclusion the boy can shoot)

as far as competition....he did play against Marquette, Kansas State, Michigan State, Butler, Arizona, and Michigan...who were all tournament teams.

dropped 28 on elite 8 Arizona, 31 on Michigan State, and 21 on championship runner up Butler....and he did all this as a true freshman...I sense some typical Duke hatred.

I don't want to go too overboard, but I think Kyrie is the most complete guard I've seen come out in a long time.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Gator Bait

[Going Commando]

So the rumor out right now is that the T-Wolves are listening to offers for the 2nd pick. I say we trade up and give the 6th and 18th and maybe throw in a future 2nd round pick or something to sweeten the deal to pick Derrick Williams.

I know a lot of people are high on Kanter and I wouldn't mind trading up to the Jazz to get him either. I just think you have to get one of these guys anyone else I really don't think anyone else from this draft is really going to help all that much going forward.

Yeah it'd be nice to get DWill or Kanter. I'm more intrigued by Kanter than DWill though because of the size difference. Kanter is a legit 6'11 whereas DWill is just under 6'9 and a bit doughy so I don't know if he fits at either the 3 or 4. They're saying Michael Beasley compares in frame and body type but Beasley wasn't as doughy. Plus I think Beasley has a much more versatile mid range game than DWill so he was a cleaner fit at the 3.

I just rewatched Kanter's highlights from the Hoops Summit game and I think he's a nice fit here. He's a big NBA ready body with solid length and a nice repertoire of offensive skills. He understands positioning extremely well and gets a lot of rebounds by beating longer players to spots. His offensive skills look very finished to me. He's got a very soft touch around the basket and looks comfortable with both hands and his footwork on the block was killing the Americans he played against. He shot FTs well and even hit some nice mid range jumpers and they say he's got range out to 3. He played the game with a bad back too and you can see it in how difficult it was for him to elevate. That makes his performance even more remarkable IMO.

I think Kanter could probably come in and start immediately at PF for us next year given his offensive polish. He'll struggle on defense initially but he shouldn't have problems replacing Blatche's scoring and doing it at a higher efficiency.

I want to draft Kanter and have him immediately begin a partnership with Javale to get them playing off each other. Their strengths really cover each others weaknesses and I think when both hit their stride, you'll have a front line with an offensive force (Kanter) and defensive force (Javale) kind of like the Mavs enjoy right now.

Hopefully we won't need to trade up for Kanter. The Jazz almost certainly won't take him too keep him and if he burns his bridges with Toronto, maybe they won't either. If reports are true that Cleveland likes Valanciunas better, that's another obstacle out of the way. Vesely should also draw comparable interest from teams and you have to figure one and two are going to be Irving and DWill whoever is picking at those spots.

So if 3, 4, and 5 aren't Kanter options, he might just slip to 6 without us having to move around to get him.

I think we might be best off just staying put and seeing who decides to take him, or letting him drop to us at 6 without having to work. If the Jazz take him then we can draft Knight for them and get something worked out.

---------- Post added May-24th-2011 at 10:27 AM ----------

Kyrie is a good player but I definitely think his shooting %s would have dropped had he played the whole season instead of a small sample. Young players always flag as a tough season wears on them. Josh Selby was another top recruit who came out the gate fast this year. Take away one stinker against Texas Arlington and he was shooting at a ridiculous rate. His %s came back down to Earth though as the season progressed and you realized that no, this kid is not the next Reggie Miller. He was just hot and shooting at a low volume. I think the same thing would have happened to Irving and there would be a lot more to scrutinize right now.

When you get down to it, Irving's resume is only a little bit bigger than Kanter's (11 NCAA games versus 4 Euroleague games). His resume is only a little bit better than the guys drafted out of HS so I understand some concerns about production for annointing a guy the #1 pick.

I like Irving as a PG prospect and think he'll be a good player but I have some problems with him. Mainly, I'm not sure where he'll fit in this saturated PG landscape. He's not as quick, proven, or high IQ as Chris Paul was when he came out. He's not as fast as Conley or Rondo. And he's nowhere near as good an athlete as Rose/Westbrook/Wall. Plus I think he might lack the intangibles of Wall/Rose/Paul.

What he's got is a very nice jump shot and good passing skills and pretty good ball handling skills. Those are his NBA level skills. That'll ensure he'll be a good NBA point but I don't know that they are enough to make him a great one. He'll need to find a good system like Steve Nash did and he'll have to become a master of that system to rise above the other PGs out there, which is basically what Rondo did to become an All Star. Plus Nash was an All Star & MVP in an extremely weak PG era. Does Kyrie Irving even have a shot at cracking an All Star squad in the East? He's not as good as John Wall and he's not going to make it over Derrick Rose. Rondo is also killing it in Boston right now. What if Deron Williams stays in the conference and Chris Paul comes over?

I'm not sure Irving can be one of the top 5 PGs in the East. I'm not sure he'll ever crack the top 7 PGs in the league. So you're talking about taking a guy #1 overall who'll have a hard time being among the top 8 at his position in the league. Not sure if this is even as strong a pick as the Bogut pick was at the time. Chad Ford said Irving is like Bogut in that he won't get your GM fired but he's still a bit disappointing at first overall. Simmons pointed out that Bogut was different because he still had a chance to be a top 5 NBA Center.

I'm with GACOLB, I think Irving is unspectacular and he'll probably be a bit of a disappointment if he goes first overall. He'll play for ten + years but I bet his career resume doesn't even come close to matching John Wall's or Derrick Rose's once we look back at all three.

Edited May 24, 2011 by stevemcqueen1

[Gator Bait]

Yeah it'd be nice to get DWill or Kanter. I'm more intrigued by Kanter than DWill though because of the size difference. Kanter is a legit 6'11 whereas DWill is just under 6'9 and a bit doughy so I don't know if he fits at either the 3 or 4. They're saying Michael Beasley compares in frame and body type but Beasley wasn't as doughy. Plus I think Beasley has a much more versatile mid range game than DWill so he was a cleaner fit at the 3.

I have to admit that I'm getting excited at the possibility of either having Kanter fall to us or trading up for him...I don't think Williams is even in the mix of possibilities. I also still think Williams is a stretch 4 like jamison...he has the range outside and he has the toughness to defend bigger men on the inside.

I think Kanter could probably come in and start immediately at PF for us next year given his offensive polish. He'll struggle on defense initially but he shouldn't have problems replacing Blatche's scoring and doing it at a higher efficiency.

I think Kanter could play the 4 or th 5 in the NBA...he seems to be a tough guy and we already know he is big. I have heard he is getting abused on the defensive side of the ball in workouts though.

I want to draft Kanter and have him immediately begin a partnership with Javale to get them playing off each other. Their strengths really cover each others weaknesses and I think when both hit their stride, you'll have a front line with an offensive force (Kanter) and defensive force (Javale) kind of like the Mavs enjoy right now.

problem with that is Javale would actually have to be a good defender to be a defensive force (as you say) Javale is an absolutely horrid defender. People are swayed by his block numbers, but what they fail to realize is that most of his blocks come from back tracking after he has already been beat...these blocks only happen a fraction of the time....he usually either gives up a layup/dunk or goaltends. Javale goaltends more than any other player I've ever seen play.

Hopefully we won't need to trade up for Kanter. The Jazz almost certainly won't take him too keep him and if he burns his bridges with Toronto, maybe they won't either. If reports are true that Cleveland likes Valanciunas better, that's another obstacle out of the way. Vesely should also draw comparable interest from teams and you have to figure one and two are going to be Irving and DWill whoever is picking at those spots.

I have a feeling Kanter goes either 3rd or 4th and is then traded to us for #6, #18, and another asset (not sure what)

So if 3, 4, and 5 aren't Kanter options, he might just slip to 6 without us having to move around to get him.

I think we might be best off just staying put and seeing who decides to take him, or letting him drop to us at 6 without having to work. If the Jazz take him then we can draft Knight for them and get something worked out

I agree...would be great if the Jazz took him to trade to us for one of the two remaining top 10 point guards...I'm just not sure if #6 and #18 get it done...and we really only have two tradable assets: Wall and Crawford....obviously Wall isn't going anywhere and I'd rather not trade Crawford unless someone was stupidly over paying for him.

Kyrie is a good player but I definitely think his shooting %s would have dropped had he played the whole season instead of a small sample. Young players always flag as a tough season wears on them.

This is very true

When you get down to it, Irving's resume is only a little bit bigger than Kanter's (11 NCAA games versus 4 Euroleague games). His resume is only a little bit better than the guys drafted out of HS so I understand some concerns about production for annointing a guy the #1 pick.

The difference is Kyrie actually played organized basketball this year; Kanter didn't.

I like Irving as a PG prospect and think he'll be a good player but I have some problems with him. Mainly, I'm not sure where he'll fit in this saturated PG landscape. He's not as quick, proven, or high IQ as Chris Paul was when he came out.

high IQ? Where is this coming from. Kyrie is an extremely high basketball IQ guy....if anything I'd rank him above Chris Paul.

He's not as fast as Conley or Rondo. And he's nowhere near as good an athlete as Rose/Westbrook/Wall. Plus I think he might lack the intangibles of Wall/Rose/Paul.

I agree that he isn't as fast as the guys you've listed and isn't as good of an athlete as the others, but overall he is better than all of them....and he is a much better shooter than all of them. I can easily say that Rondo and Wall were lousy shooters coming out (and they both still are) or that Westbrook is in efficient and has a lower basketball IQ....I actually think Kyrie ranks closest to Chris Paul and Deron Williams in which he is a do it all type PG.

Plus Nash was an All Star & MVP in an extremely weak PG era

disagree: Steph Marbury, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker

You've got four gauranteed hall of famers (Payton, Iverson, Kidd, Nash) two guys right on the borderline of hall of fame (Parker and Billups) and one guy that could have been considered if he didn't go crazy.

Does Kyrie Irving even have a shot at cracking an All Star squad in the East? He's not as good as John Wall and he's not going to make it over Derrick Rose. Rondo is also killing it in Boston right now. What if Deron Williams stays in the conference and Chris Paul comes over

gauging a players worth on a fan voted allstar team is a terrible barometer of one's value to a team. No doubt there are many very good up and coming point guards in the east right now, but if Kyrie can help lift Cleveland out of the seller and make them competitive again, he is worth the #1 overall pick.

Only time will tell....I think Kyrie is scrutinized just like any other basketball player coming out of Duke; but in time I think he will show he was worthy of the pick.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Gator Bait

[Going Commando]

I have to admit that I'm getting excited at the possibility of either having Kanter fall to us or trading up for him...I don't think Williams is even in the mix of possibilities. I also still think Williams is a stretch 4 like jamison...he has the range outside and he has the toughness to defend bigger men on the inside.

I could see that. But I think Williams will struggle a bit defending NBA 4s. They aren't going to have problems shooting over him. He's kind of short and his length is comparable to guys like Carmelo. I think his best bet is defending the 3. He can compensate for lateral quickness by muscling guys around. I also think he should lose some weight because 10.8 % body fat is very high for a perimeter player.

I think Kanter could play the 4 or th 5 in the NBA...he seems to be a tough guy and we already know he is big. I have heard he is getting abused on the defensive side of the ball in workouts though.

Kanter would be a 5 for us if we didn't have Javale. The amazing thing about Kanter to me is his weight versus his body fat %. He is a bit shorter than Javale, weighs a little bit more than him, and his body fat % is almost as low! That's ridiculous because Javale is extremely wiry. Sub 6% is ridiculous for the type of player Kanter is. Look at his frame and you can see Kanter is still pretty thin. He's going to be huge when he fills out and probably be one of the strongest players at his position in the NBA. He's going to be beefier than Marc Gasol.

problem with that is Javale would actually have to be a good defender to be a defensive force (as you say) Javale is an absolutely horrid defender. People are swayed by his block numbers, but what they fail to realize is that most of his blocks come from back tracking after he has already been beat...these blocks only happen a fraction of the time....he usually either gives up a layup/dunk or goaltends. Javale goaltends more than any other player I've ever seen play.

Javale really isn't that bad for being the project he is. Towards the end of the year he was playing a lot better defense and you could watch a game and see him lock down the paint for stretches and actually get rebounds. The help defense will come as the rest of the team improves too. The issue is really rebounding. Getting a rebounding machine like Kanter would help. Keeping him motivated like he was at the end of the year would also help.

Regardless, Javales ability to alter shots is extremely rare. He can contests shots as well as anyone else in the NBA and he does it on a consistent basis. The next step for him is harnessing his freakish shot blocking ability to lead to deflections which end up in our team's hands. He'll get there.

I agree...would be great if the Jazz took him to trade to us for one of the two remaining top 10 point guards...I'm just not sure if #6 and #18 get it done...and we really only have two tradable assets: Wall and Crawford....obviously Wall isn't going anywhere and I'd rather not trade Crawford unless someone was stupidly over paying for him.

6 and 18 should be enough IMO. The Jazz will be just as desperate to trade Kanter as we would be to acquire him. It's not like he's widely considered an elite talent either. He probably has considerably less value than Derrick Favors.

The difference is Kyrie actually played organized basketball this year; Kanter didn't.

True. But I also think Kyrie has become the BPA by default and by a Sam Bradford-like blessing in disguise of an injury helping him avoid scrutiny.

high IQ? Where is this coming from. Kyrie is an extremely high basketball IQ guy....if anything I'd rank him above Chris Paul.

No way! Aside from Jason Kidd, Chris Paul is probably the smartest PG in the league and he was one of the smartest PGs the ACC has ever seen.

I agree that he isn't as fast as the guys you've listed and isn't as good of an athlete as the others, but overall he is better than all of them....and he is a much better shooter than all of them. I can easily say that Rondo and Wall were lousy shooters coming out (and they both still are) or that Westbrook is in efficient and has a lower basketball IQ....I actually think Kyrie ranks closest to Chris Paul and Deron Williams in which he is a do it all type PG.

He's not better than Wall was coming out and Rose and Westbrook have star qualities. He's also not as beefy or accomplished as Deron Williams was.

I see Irving as a slightly taller, poor man's version of Paul. He might shoot better than Paul did, but the tradeoff is that he's not as good at getting to the rim or playing point defense as Paul was in college. Plus Paul proved himself by taking a mediocre WF team to a 2 seed whereas Kyrie got to come into a stacked Duke team coming off a championship that was good enough to get a 1 seed and win the ACC without him.

disagree: Steph Marbury, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker

Payton is great but he was certainly in decline during Nash's prime years. Starbury and Iverson are combo guards and Starbury kind of makes my point.

You've got four gauranteed hall of famers (Payton, Iverson, Kidd, Nash) two guys right on the borderline of hall of fame (Parker and Billups) and one guy that could have been considered if he didn't go crazy.

Parker and Billups will never make it in the hall nor should they. Kidd is the only other great pure PG other than Kidd during this era. the early to mid 2000's was probably the most diluted PG era ever. Arenas, Steve Francis, Starbury, none of these combo guys were as good as a lot of the PGs in the league right now.

gauging a players worth on a fan voted allstar team is a terrible barometer of one's value to a team. No doubt there are many very good up and coming point guards in the east right now, but if Kyrie can help lift Cleveland out of the seller and make them competitive again, he is worth the #1 overall pick.

What if he's never better than Mike Conley or Devin Harris though? That pick wouldn't look great then. Especially not if Derrick Williams becomes an All Star.

Only time will tell....I think Kyrie is scrutinized just like any other basketball player coming out of Duke; but in time I think he will show he was worthy of the pick.

What I meant is that his skill set isn't scrutinized like the other guys who have one or two full NCAA seasons under their belt. His tape is all good but there isn't a bunch of it. He didn't see a lot of different situations so we can't see how he reacts and his weaknesses never really popped up.

---------- Post added May-24th-2011 at 01:11 PM ----------

Another thing about Javale's defense that shows he's started to improve are his fouls. He was terrible at first but he's managed to cut down on them a ton last year and only had a few games late in the season where he took himself out of them with fouls.

I think that's a sign he's getting a lot better on that end of the floor. If I had to guess, I'd say give him another two seasons as the starter to learn his way and by the start of that next season he'll be one of the better defenders in the conference. Super raw bigs like Javale usually take a while. I think it probably wasn't until he went to the Hornets that Tyson Chandler became a really good defender and that was about 6 or 7 years in. I'd say Javale is farther along than he was.

[Gator Bait]

I could see that. But I think Williams will struggle a bit defending NBA 4s. They aren't going to have problems shooting over him. He's kind of short and his length is comparable to guys like Carmelo. I think his best bet is defending the 3. He can compensate for lateral quickness by muscling guys around. I also think he should lose some weight because 10.8 % body fat is very high for a perimeter player.

I agree that he could have a bit of trouble guarding NBA 4s...but who doesn't? How many legit old school defensive PFs are in the league these days? Not many...the majority of PFs in the league are in that no mans land stretch 4 mold. Some of the other true 4s in the league like Griffin, Love, and Boozer are poor defenders. Typically it is your center who you need to count on being the better defender in my opinion...not the 4. Would be great to have both, but typically it doesn't happen that way.

Kanter would be a 5 for us if we didn't have Javale. The amazing thing about Kanter to me is his weight versus his body fat %. He is a bit shorter than Javale, weighs a little bit more than him, and his body fat % is almost as low! That's ridiculous because Javale is extremely wiry. Sub 6% is ridiculous for the type of player Kanter is. Look at his frame and you can see Kanter is still pretty thin. He's going to be huge when he fills out and probably be one of the strongest players at his position in the NBA. He's going to be beefier than Marc Gasol.

It would be nice if we could sign Gasol in the offseason and get Kanter in the draft (which I doubt both could happen...highly unlikely to get Gasol) but then we could play Gasol at the 5, Kanter at the 4 and have Dray and McGee come off the bench.

Javale really isn't that bad for being the project he is. Towards the end of the year he was playing a lot better defense and you could watch a game and see him lock down the paint for stretches and actually get rebounds. The help defense will come as the rest of the team improves too. The issue is really rebounding. Getting a rebounding machine like Kanter would help. Keeping him motivated like he was at the end of the year would also help.

as far as defense....he really is that bad. Rebounding is another story...he did greatly improve his rebounding in the last 1/4 - 1/2 of the year.

Regardless, Javales ability to alter shots is extremely rare. He can contests shots as well as anyone else in the NBA and he does it on a consistent basis. The next step for him is harnessing his freakish shot blocking ability to lead to deflections which end up in our team's hands. He'll get there.

that doesn't make him a good defender though....he needs discipline and a good big man coach...if we don't get a new big man coach, I have no hope for Javale.

6 and 18 should be enough IMO. The Jazz will be just as desperate to trade Kanter as we would be to acquire him. It's not like he's widely considered an elite talent either. He probably has considerably less value than Derrick Favors.

They could possibly just settle for Brandon Knight at #3....I think someone will trade for that #3 pick...it is just a matter of what teams have to offer and how bad other teams want that pick. I just know that if I was in Utah's shoes...I'd want more than just #6 and #18 to move up to #3. The talent drop off is significant after the first 3 picks.

True. But I also think Kyrie has become the BPA by default and by a Sam Bradford-like blessing in disguise of an injury helping him avoid scrutiny.

Sam Bradford turned out pretty well so far. Not sure what you mean that Kyrie is BPA by default....he is BPA because he is the BPA...haha..not sure what you mean here.

No way! Aside from Jason Kidd, Chris Paul is probably the smartest PG in the league and he was one of the smartest PGs the ACC has ever seen.

and you are basing this off.......

He's not better than Wall was coming out and Rose and Westbrook have star qualities. He's also not as beefy or accomplished as Deron Williams was.

I think Kyrie is better than Wall coming out....Kyrie was the best player on the court when healthy for Duke. Wall was arguably not the best player on the court for Kentucky....don't get me wrong...I'll take Wall any day of the week over Kyrie...but based on their production in college....I think Kyrie showed more. Wall wasn't able to shocase his talents as much because he was on an absolutely loaded team.

Rose was definitely star quality coming out of college...I'll agree that he was the highest rated PG that has come out in the past 10+ years. Westbrook wasn't really hyped up coming out of college...he pretty much flew under the radar.

I see Irving as a slightly taller, poor man's version of Paul. He might shoot better than Paul did, but the tradeoff is that he's not as good at getting to the rim or playing point defense as Paul was in college. Plus Paul proved himself by taking a mediocre WF team to a 2 seed whereas Kyrie got to come into a stacked Duke team coming off a championship that was good enough to get a 1 seed and win the ACC without him.

I agree with the Paul comparison....but I think his defense is just as good and he can get to the rim just as easy as Paul.....Paul is, however, a much better passer.

Payton is great but he was certainly in decline during Nash's prime years

.

true..he did have some good years while Nash was in the league though....payton was good for a long time

Starbury and Iverson are combo guards and Starbury kind of makes my point.

They were both definitely point guards....they were score first point guards...bu tall the same they ran the 1.

Parker and Billups will never make it in the hall nor should they.

They likely wont, but they definitely deserve consideration...Parker has comparable career numbers to Nash and Kidd; has three rings (in which he was arguably the 2nd best player on all three); finals MVP and he still likely has 5-6 high quality years left....I think Parker actually has a chance to make the Hall. Billups is less likely, but you have to give the guy credit for being the best player on an NBA championship team and having consistent good years throughout his 13 year NBA career.

Kidd is the only other great pure PG other than Kidd during this era. the early to mid 2000's was probably the most diluted PG era ever. Arenas, Steve Francis, Starbury, none of these combo guys were as good as a lot of the PGs in the league right now.

not saying they were as good....but right now you probably have the best era of PGs ever...think you should cut the 2000 guys a little slack...they were pretty good in their own right.

What if he's never better than Mike Conley or Devin Harris though? That pick wouldn't look great then. Especially not if Derrick Williams becomes an All Star.

that's a what if though.....could happen...likely wont (in my opinion)...Devin Harris and Mike Conley weren't #1 overall talents.

What I meant is that his skill set isn't scrutinized like the other guys who have one or two full NCAA seasons under their belt. His tape is all good but there isn't a bunch of it. He didn't see a lot of different situations so we can't see how he reacts and his weaknesses never really popped up.

that is a pretty good point

Another thing about Javale's defense that shows he's started to improve are his fouls. He was terrible at first but he's managed to cut down on them a ton last year and only had a few games late in the season where he took himself out of them with fouls.

this is a false statement....Javale took himself out of plenty of games early with two quick fouls in the first few minutes of the 1st quarter....seemed like it happened every other game...not to mention that has nothing to do with his ability to play smart defense.

I think that's a sign he's getting a lot better on that end of the floor. If I had to guess, I'd say give him another two seasons as the starter to learn his way and by the start of that next season he'll be one of the better defenders in the conference. Super raw bigs like Javale usually take a while. I think it probably wasn't until he went to the Hornets that Tyson Chandler became a really good defender and that was about 6 or 7 years in. I'd say Javale is farther along than he was.

you are correct that bigs take a lot longer to develop than other players....I hope you are right about Javale....because unless we get a different coaching staff in Washington...I don't see it.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I think the better "worst case" comparison for Irving than Harris might be Andre Miller. He's a better shooter than Miller though. 17 and 8. Again, good but not elite. Not all drafts are created equal and not all #1 overall picks are created equal. I really think people are jumping the gun on the Chris Paul/Deron Williams comparisons. I'm not gonna lie, I think him skipping the combine workouts is weak and his me questioning him. Especially with this still somewhat fresh in my mind:

http://www.onemanfastbreak.net/2010/05/22/2010-nba-draft-combine-john-wall-soars-over-the-competition/

And Ryan, you asked me about DX having Jimmer going 19. Of the six or so mocks that have dropped the last two days, I think only one has him in the lottery. One has him as the 28th best prospect in the draft. Another actually has uus taking him at 18. His stock is dropping. The combine hurt him apparently.

[Gator Bait]

I think the better "worst case" comparison for Irving than Harris might be Andre Miller. He's a better shooter than Miller though. 17 and 8. Again, good but not elite. Not all drafts are created equal and not all #1 overall picks are created equal. I really think people are jumping the gun on the Chris Paul/Deron Williams comparisons. I'm not gonna lie, I think him skipping the combine workouts is weak and his me questioning him. Especially with this still somewhat fresh in my mind:.

I'll accept Andre Miller as a worst case scenario...because Andre Miller has had a pretty damn good career....if that is a worst case scenario...I'd be pretty comfortable taking him. Best case scenario is Steve Nash that plays defense....Kyrie fits the Steve Nash mold of being a little bit less athletic than guys like Rondo or Wall, but has superior shooting skills all the way around. 46% from 3 and 90% free throw is ridiculous for a college player. While I do agree with Steve that the smaller sample size of games could benefit Kyrie by not exposing weakness, I also think you can either shoot....or you can't. Kyrie can shoot!

http://www.onemanfastbreak.net/2010/05/22/2010-nba-draft-combine-john-wall-soars-over-the-competition/

And Ryan, you asked me about DX having Jimmer going 19. Of the six or so mocks that have dropped the last two days, I think only one has him in the lottery. One has him as the 28th best prospect in the draft. Another actually has uus taking him at 18. His stock is dropping. The combine hurt him apparently.

I didn't realize he had a bad combine....I hope he does drop...I'd take him at #18 as a risk/reward pick all day. The guy may lack the quickness to D up at the next level...but he sure can shoot the lights out....I'll take a wing three point shooter/back up PG role player at #18 in a weak draft every time!

was Steve Kurr any good on defense? I don't remember him being very quick...but he sure could shoot the lights out! When you play next to MJ and Pippen (two of the best defenders ever) you don't need to be inclined defensively.....hopefully we can say the same think in a few years about guys playing with John Wall and whoever we draft in 2012!

Edited May 24, 2011 by Gator Bait

[Thinking Skins]

I'm definitely intrigued by Kanter, but if we stay put I think I'm still in favor of the safe pick in Leonard. I understand that hes not the scorer that some want, but he has a track record for playing really good defense (which is something this team needs), and he's athletic with a large upside. I think he's the guy thats at minimum a decent player with the potential to be really good player if he can get his jumper together. In a deeper draft, I'd think he'd go later, but this draft seems to be full of role players and potential. Leonard seems a safe combination of both. And its at a position where we have needs.

I wouldn't be too afraid of comparing him to Booker. Booker can play the 3 or the 4, and I really see him coming off the bench anyway. I realize this team needs shooters and big men as well, but lets not ignore our defensive woes. Before that last stretch of the season, our defense was a joke. And I'm not willing to bet that all of a sudden something clicked and we learned to play defense. I'm more in the mindset that we need some defensive minded players. With 18, hopefully we can get a shooter to help with our offense, but I honestly trust Leonard's upside more than that of Biyombo (from what I hear, he's very raw), Valanciuas (low basketball IQ, no defense), or Vesely (defense, basketball iq, contract). I'd pick DW or EK over him, but we're probably not in a position to get either of them. And I really question what a legit trade is for one of them. (1 + Blatche? 1 + Young? 1 + Blatche + Young? 1 + Blatche + Young + 18? 1 + 18?)

I'm not in LOVE with either DW or EK guys and I feel like giving up a big man who has an (albeit inconsistent) ability to score - even if it is Blatche, and a lottery pick for DW is too much (and he's supposed to be the best player in the draft). Maybe EG feels like we have enough young players and only wants one more. If thats the case then maybe the trade makes sense, but I'm really not impressed enough with any of our young guys other than Wall and Crawford to label them as key parts of our future. I'm not saying I'd give them up for nothing, but we shouldn't ignore possibly better players because we've got Booker/Seraphin/Ndiaye on our roster.

And as far as EK goes, I'm curious about him, but all we have is basically from the one game he stood out in. I really wonder about his injury problems (back, knees), his consistency (thats what Blatche's problem is isn't it?), if he will pass the ball, how he makes decisions under pressure, etc. I'm not saying I wouldn't draft him, just that there has to be a max for what I'd give up for him.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Thinking Skins

[RonArtest15]

Good write up on Kawhi Leonard, Chris Singleton, Markieff Morris, and Tristan Thompson from BF....

I'll just post Leonard (because some boards have us taking him at #6), but include the link at the bottom for the rest...

Kawhi Leonard

Two-point percentage: 47.8%. That's just dreadful. Some of it can be explained by increased usage (Leonard's rate went from 25.6% to 27.5% from his first to his second year), but no lottery pick should ever be that low without a good reason.

Wingspan/Reach: This is Leonard's biggest asset. His 7'3'' wingspan is freakish and his 8'10'' standing reach is very good too. He also has insanely big hands.

TS%: 51.2%. Again, that's dreadful for a top prospect. It was only 51.5% the year before, so this isn't simply a function of increased usage.

Defensive Rebound Rate: 26.6%, 13th in the country. That's phenomenal, but...

3PT%: 29.1%.

Conclusion: And therein lies the problem. Leonard will have to become a passable three-point shooter, because he is so dreadfully inefficient as a two-point shooter. To do that, he will have to play further away from the basket, which negates his rebounding advantage. This is why I'm down on Leonard as a prospect. He's a great workout guy and has great measurables, but he doesn't have enough scoring ability to be anything more than a self-check as a 4, and even if he develops a three-point shot and becomes a 3/D type, it takes away his biggest on-court asset (rebounding). There are a lot of interesting things to the Leonard package, but they just don't add up to me.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2011/5/24/2188125/kawhi-leonard-chris-singleton-tristan-thompson-markieff-morris#storyjump

Edited May 24, 2011 by RonArtest15

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Leonard's big hands are the warning sign. Players with big hands (Rondo) can never be good shooters. Something to do with the size of the area their hands are in contact with on the ball, spin and sideways rotation. Read a piece about Leonard last week that discussed it. He'll never be a good shooter. And like I've said a million time, he's offensively retarded. That's pretty much the only pick at 6 that will upset me.

I gpt some more to post (about Irving and Jimmer) and my Holy Grail link of NBA mock drafts, but I'm about to play ball so I'll be back later.

[Gator Bait]

I'm not in LOVE with either DW or EK guys and I feel like giving up a big man who has an (albeit inconsistent) ability to score - even if it is Blatche, and a lottery pick for DW is too much (and he's supposed to be the best player in the draft).

I'd probably Jizz in my pants and yelp out a perfect opera note at the same time if we were able to get Kanter or Williams with #6 and Blatche! Not only would we get one of the only three legit top 10 none PG lottery picks (in my opinion); we'd also be ridding ourselves of a lazy player that is under contract for 4 years at ruoughly 30 million. This would open up significant minutes for Kanter/Williams to develop w/ John Wall, but it would also open up cap space that would allow us to possibly sign Nick Young and Gasol (less likely) long term....pipe drem:

Wall

Young

Lewis

Kanter

Gasol

Crawford

McGee

Booker

....I believe that is a playoff quality rotation.....all we'd have to do if figure out away to get rid of flip and we'd be golden!

[Thinking Skins]

Here's a quote from that article:

4 unexciting guys

Singleton: I know he gets a lot of love around here, but I’m pretty worried that he doesn’t have the offensive skills to be anything besides an end-of-quarter stopper. So much hangs on that 37% 3 point shooting, and it’s only 95 attempts. Given that he’s a bad FT shooter, he reminds me too much of Dom.

Leonard: Given his athleticism, his shooting numbers are mystifying to me. I remember him being way too tentative in the post during the tournament and that’s not the kind of thing that’s easily improved. Having said that, he’s supposedly shown an improved stroke in workouts and it’s not impossible to imagine him becoming a solid finisher around the basket with Wall feeding him.

Morris: I don’t know. I can’t seeing him being a bust since he can hit a jump shot and plays hard on defense. He just isn’t that big and isn’t that athletic. He screams 3rd big man to me, which isn’t bad, but isn’t much different from Booker. I’d rather take a chance on whichever Euro falls to us.

Thompson: Bad rebounder and has no offensive skills. I do love his defense, but he just seems to have no offensive instincts whatsoever.

So, I see Leonard as being a step above everyone else, especially when it comes to ceiling. I’d much prefer taking a higher risk European guy, regardless.

by Scizzy on May 24, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply

--------------------

So, I wrote all that

and really, it just made me realize what you mentioned in passing: Biyombo is just seems like a vastly better prospect than all these guys. A much better athlete, has played at a high level, and is (hopefully), the youngest of the group.

by Scizzy on May 24, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply

---------------

I sort of agree too

Though honestly I haven’t poured into looking at Biyombo much yet.

SB Nation DC | Bullets Forever | SBNation.com | Twitter.

by Mike Prada on May 24, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply

------------------

Yeah - but talk about a ZERO on offense...

Sure , he brings defense, rebounding and shot blocking…. similar to Ben Wallace in that regard

When Big Ben first came to Washington… (undrafted).. He was a role player… It wasn’t until he was in the league for about 3-4 years, AFTER he was traded from Orlando to Detroit that he became good enough on defense to offset his terrible offense…. And even then, it only worked because he had 4 good scorers around him (Billups, Rasheed, Rip and Tayshawn Prince)…

You put Biyombo on the Wizards, and he just duplicates a lot of what JaVale McGee already does – and puts a lot of pressure on the rest of the Wizards to score…

He's "delightfully cranky"

I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.

by Rook6980 on May 24, 2011 7:07 PM EDT up reply

[Going Commando]

Check this out Gatorbait. Looks like you are right about Derrick Williams being a 4 in the NBA. This is pretty eye opening stuff from Chad Ford:

• Arizona's Derrick Williams boldly asserted that he should be the No. 1 pick on Thursday. It's unlikely he'll persuade the Cavs to pull the trigger at one, but he did have a good weekend. NBA scouts have been wondering for months whether Williams was big enough to play the 4 in the NBA and have been trying to project him as an NBA 3. Williams' measurements strongly helped his cause as an NBA power forward. He measured nearly 6-foot-9, with an impressive 7-1 wingspan and 9-foot standing reach. Those wingspan and standing-reach measurements (the two measurements NBA teams really care about) put him on par with Greg Monroe and Ed Davis. He's actually taller and longer than both Blake Griffin and Kevin Love, two NBA All-Star power forwards. While Williams may be trying to sell himself as a 3, the truth is he's more valuable to most NBA teams as a 4 who can also stretch the floor and take his man off the dribble.

The question is, who will draft him at No. 2? As I reported Tuesday, the Wolves are very open to trading the pick if they can get some veteran help. They won't be giving the pick away, but given the youth on the team and the log jam at both forward positions, this pick is a great asset to trade for veteran help. Look for the Cavs, Jazz, Wizards, Kings, Pistons, Bobcats, Bucks, Rockets, Pacers, Sixers to all get in the mix for him in the coming weeks.

I've got to say, if we're drafting DWill as a PF, then I'd be very interested in moving up to two to get him. It looks like the TWolves want veteran help for him though. We've got nothing to offer in that department except for maybe Nick Young and draft picks.

If you think about it though, Nick Young might be interesting to them. Johnny Flynn is definitely a point and Wesley Johnson fits best at SF so there is a hole at SG.

I'm not sure we've got the assets to make that move, but it's something to think about.

Here's some more information from Ford on Kanter:

• Turkey's Enes Kanter was the real star of the draft combine. Many of the NBA executives in attendance had never seen him play before (with the possible exception of a Kentucky practice) and the rest had only seen him at the Nike Hoop Summit. Kanter didn't do anything spectacular, but he was in good shape, played hard, showed some skills offensively and was very good in interviews with teams. He also measured well at 6-11, 260 pounds with a 7-1 wingspan and a 9-1 standing reach. That gives him very good size at the power forward position and makes him a passable (albeit slightly undersized) center as well.

A lot was made on Friday about Kanter's decision to cancel a scheduled interview with the Jazz. Don't read too much into it. Sources in both Utah and Kanter's camp said it was mutually agreed that the Jazz would fly to Chicago on June 2 and see Kanter work out in Chicago. The Jazz will get their interview then. Kanter did meet with the Cavs, Wizards and Wolves this week and will likely work out there. It's no secret Kanter would like to play in Washington with John Wall. I'm not confident he'll last until the sixth pick.

Kanter's stock is all over the place. Chad Ford is very high on Kanter but he's always been high on Kanter from the very beginning and tends to be a little more enthusiastic about Europeans than is the norm. The guys at DX don't think he's a top 4 lock and have him graded behind Valanciunas and Biyombo I believe. I believe they've even got Mirotic and Vesely ahead of him too. They're not convinced by his very light resume over the past two years.

But stuff like that bolded quote has me excited about this draft. I really hope we come away with either Williams or Kanter at this point. I think I'd be disappointed if we didn't get one of those two. I really want us to come away with a PF from this class.

[Gator Bait]

@ Ron Artest: 48% from a college sophomore small forward doesn't seem that bad to me. Most players improve their shots year after year in developmental stages in the NBA.

@GACOLB: I'm not buying the hand size argument either.....MJ had the same exact hand size as Leonard and demarcus cousins hands are just slightly smaller.....I'd consider both pretty damn good shooters. ...that is just a real quick google search.....not to mention the guy would never even need to develop a great shot to be an effective basketball player....I understand what you are saying about taking a role player with a #6 overall pick....but that is just the hand we've been dealt with this draft. If the top three are gone....I'm on the Leonard bandwagon....however....I still think we get Kanter one way or another. The man said he wants to be a Wizards....and a Wizard he will be.

[Going Commando]

More Ford thoughts about the combine pertaining to Jimmer and Kawhi Leonard:

• BYU's Jimmer Fredette was a hot topic at the camp. He didn't really stand out in the drills on Thursday or Friday, but he was a major hit in interviews. A number of teams told me Fredette was the best interview they had and came away convinced that all of his celebrity had not gone to his head. "He's a humble, hard-working kid. You can't help but like him," one NBA executive said. "After the interview, I wanted to go up and hug him," another scout said. While nothing in Chicago helped quell the furious debate about what sort of NBA player he'll be, he made an impression. Fredette's first workout will be with the Knicks in early June. He's also got workouts planned with the Jazz, Suns, Rockets, Pacers and Blazers. It's still too early to get a read on where he'll ultimately land … but if Utah takes a big with its first pick (No. 3) he'll be seriously in the mix when they pick again at No. 12...

• San Diego State's Kawhi Leonard skipped the drills on Thursday and Friday, but decided on Friday morning to put on a shooting show for NBA executives as they walked in the gym. As I reported last week, Leonard has been working on his jump shot and was shooting very well in Vegas. He also shot the ball well in the brief 15 minutes or so before the combine began and had quite a crowd of NBA GMs and execs watching closely. His measurements (7-3 wingspan and 8-10 standing reach) were good enough as well to make him a plausible (though slightly undersized) NBA power forward. He measured bigger than Blake Griffin and on par with Kevin Love. So even if the shooting thing doesn't work out, his rebounding prowess and motor might allow him to make a living at the 4.

Here are some thoughts on a trio of players we've talked about, Brooks, Selby, and Thompson:

• Washington State's Klay Thompson had one of the most impressive weeks in Chicago. There were a number of great shooters in the combine this weekend, but Thompson had the best shooting performance of any of the prospects on both days. His ability to shoot off the dribble combined with his excellent size (6-7 with a 6-9 wingspan) are going to be very intriguing for a number of teams in need of a shooter. He also handled interviews well. Two NBA teams said Thompson brought up the charges of marijuana possession early in the interview, didn't make excuses for the mistake, and said it would never happen again. While NBA teams will continue to do their due diligence to get a better feel for how big a problem it was or might be in the future, they came away encouraged. Look for the Bobcats, Bucks, Jazz, Suns, Pacers, Knicks and Wizards to all give him a long look.

• Providence's Marshon Brooks turned heads with a strong combine performance. On Friday, the drills turned more competitive and Brooks made a number of spectacular plays. With a 7-1 wingspan, huge hands and scorer's mentality, he's now garnered serious interest in the first round. Two teams to watch with Brooks are the Wolves and Bulls. The Bulls, especially, seem to be enamored with Brooks but are concerned that he won't be there when they pick. "If he was two years younger or if his team had won more games, he'd be a lottery pick," one NBA GM said. "But as far as NBA scorers go, there aren't any guards in this draft that can get his own shot at the NBA level like him."

• Kansas guard Josh Selby also drew positive reviews for his quickness and interviews. "He's rough around the edges, but interviewed much better than we expected," one NBA GM said. "I don't think most of our guards in the league can stay in front of him. He's not a point guard, but the Monta Ellis comparisons are right on." From everything I can gather, I think the Knicks are his floor right now.

[Gator Bait]

@ steve...thanks for the love on calling Williams a 4....It has always baffled me why people would think he is more of a 3 than a 4....he has Antwan Jamison (besides the lack of defense) written all over him....he is also a bit more aggressive than Antawn...he has that killer instinct that Kobe, KG, and Jordan have/had. John Wall has that killer instinct.

Can you imagine having a big and a pg with a killer instinct on the same team....that would be like having KG and Kobe on the same team....scary!

[Gator Bait]

tellin you guys.....when we look back at this draft in a few years....all arrows are going to point to Thompson...wondering how in the world this guy wasn't a top pick in the draft!

[Going Commando]

My last cherry picking of Chad Ford's article, I promise. These four players sounded interesting as later options (maybe at18 or 34 if they are available):

• Lots of debate here about Marcus and Markieff Morris. Both players measured OK. Marcus was 6-9 with an 8-10 reach. His brother was 6-9 with an 8-11 reach. Markieff clearly fits the profile of a stretch 4. Marcus is right on the borderline right now. He's been insisting in interviews that he's a 3, but not every team is buying it. It will be interesting to see how it ultimately affects his stock. The Bobcats, Bucks, Warriors, Jazz and Pacers all have interest in him.

• Tennessee's Tobias Harris still hasn't hired an agent. His father, Torrell, is handling all of his affairs. Harris' measurements were a disappointment. He was 6-8 in shoes with a solid 6-11 wingspan. But his standing reach was just 8-7. That's fine for a small forward, but most NBA teams project him as a power forward. His father was adamant that Harris had played the 3 his whole life and played out of position at Tennessee. "We modeled his game after George Gervin and Adrian Dantley," his father said. "He's a point forward. He's at his best on the perimeter." He's certainly one of the most skilled players in the draft, but NBA teams worry that he lacks the quickness to guard NBA wings. His father said his athletic testing numbers (which weren't available as of Monday morning) will prove he's quicker and more explosive than NBA teams think. If they are, the Shane Battier comparisons may not be far off.

• We're going to have to move USC's Nikola Vucevic into the first round of our next mock draft. Not only were teams very high on him in workouts, but he measured as the biggest player in the combine. He was a touch below 7 feet tall with a massive 7-5 wing and a 9-5 standing reach. Those are NBA center numbers all the way. In fact, based on the measurements, he may be the only true NBA center in the draft. He didn't always play like a center at USC, but if he can get stronger and more physical, he could have a bright future at the 5. A number of teams, starting with the Sixers at 16 and Knicks at 17, are interested.

• Jeremy Tyler continued to wow NBA teams on Friday with his athleticism, physical profile and defense. He measured out as the second-biggest player at the combine. He was 6-11, 260 with a huge 7-5 wing and a 9-2 standing reach. Tyler told me he believed he'll have a 40-inch vertical, which is a fantastic number for a player his size. His measurements are on par with Cole Aldrich's and just below DeAndre Jordan's. Tyler also scored very high marks from NBA teams on his interviews. His offensive game is still a work in progress and there are still some skeletons in his closet from his botched season in Israel. But on sheer physical upside, Tyler played himself into a possible first-round pick with his week here. A number of teams, including the Knicks, Nuggets, Rockets and Spurs, are giving him a look in the first.

Another guy that was brought up on DX as a potential mid first sleeper was Jimmy Butler from Marquette. The speaker said they really liked him because of his versatility and his extremely high basketball IQ. He sounds like a pretty nice option at 34 if he's there. This is some of the good things they have to say about him in his profile:

Butler is a heady player who plays within a team concept. He defends, he makes the extra pass, he crashes the glass, he has a terrific basketball IQ, and his attitude is a coach's dream. A product of tireless reps in the gym and a detail oriented system, the senior has a very solid floor game, makes good decision with the ball, scraps on both ends, and maximizes the physical tools he does have.

It seems like there are a lot of nice role players in this year's class. I'd love to achieve some of the following goals in this year's draft:

- upgrade scoring at the 3

- upgrade scoring at the 4

- upgrade perimeter defense, find a nice stopper at the 2 or 3

- upgrade perimeter shooting at the 2 or 3

- upgrade defense/rebounding at the 4

I'd add upgrade scoring at the 5 but there isn't really anyone in this class who can do that except for Kanter (who I think we'd play at the 4 anyway). We can probably accomplish a few of those goals since we've got three pretty good picks. Kanter & Klay Thompson at 6 and 18 accomplish some of that.

---------- Post added May-24th-2011 at 08:27 PM ----------

@ steve...thanks for the love on calling Williams a 4....It has always baffled me why people would think he is more of a 3 than a 4....he has Antwan Jamison (besides the lack of defense) written all over him....he is also a bit more aggressive than Antawn...he has that killer instinct that Kobe, KG, and Jordan have/had. John Wall has that killer instinct.

Can you imagine having a big and a pg with a killer instinct on the same team....that would be like having KG and Kobe on the same team....scary!

I was skeptical about DWill because I thought he was a lot shorter than he really is and was afraid he'd have trouble hanging around with NBA 4s. I figured well, why not have him lose some weight and just muscle around 3s? But then I had some worries about his quickness on the perimeter so I couldn't figure out where to play him.

I think he proved with his measurements that he's got the body to be an NBA PF. I'm not sure what kind of post game he has, but one thing he can do is create his own shots on the perimeter, attack the rim off the dribble, and he could CRUSH a pick and roll or pick and pop with his athleticism and shooting ability. Can you imagine him and John Wall running that play all day? Maybe I'm getting overexcited but I'm going to say it: shades of Stockton--Malone?

DWill has rare finishing ability, he'd be a lot of fun to watch playing along side a first rate distributor like Wall.

The only thing about him is that he's definitely going second overall and he'll probably be expensive. I'm not sure if we can put a package together to beat some of the teams that should be interested in him.

Kanter is a nice consolation prize though. All of the highlights I've seen of him have been impressive. He looks very aggressive but very controlled. He's got such a nice touch and makes points in the paint look so easy to come by. He's very skilled.

[Going Commando]

I can't watch DWill highlights any more. He's too exciting, too much of a beast.

I wasn't that crazy about him a couple of months ago but the closer we get to the draft, the more I want to draft him. I really want us to come away with a forward with an elite offensive skill set and that pretty much leaves just DWill and Kanter. DWill is such an athlete and finisher and he's got two fantastic years of NCAA production. He's going to be good and he put the tweener concerns to bed IMO since he's bigger than Blake Griffin.

Tell me watching that doesn't get you excited about the potential of him running the pick and roll with John Wall? Our team would be so much fun to watch.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

After watching the Bulls all season long, I DO NOT want the Wizards to follow their blueprint.

I'm all for having great/good defenders but you also need MULTIPLE players who can create thier own shot.

In an idea world I'd prefer to have a solid defensive team with the offensive punch of the pre-injury Gilbert Arenas led Wizards.

I'm just not a fan of limited offensive teams.