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The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

BRAVEONAWARPATH

By BRAVEONAWARPATH
in The Tailgate

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Destino

Destino

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Also Wall has demonstrated the ability to score when the rest of the team is struggling and/or score against set defenses in crunch time numerous times. He's had plenty of 12+ point quarters this season alone.

What we are talking about is his inconsistency. Yes he's shown he can score numerous times but who can predict when that will be? His passing is great but his scoring comes and goes, and if he has to shoot to score... his shot is off as much as it's on. He needs to be consistent. Also he needs to get those turnovers down because they are still way too high.

Beal is a third year player. His consistency will come but it's no where near where this team needs it to be right now and his scoring is way down.

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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What we are talking about is his inconsistency. Yes he's shown he can score numerous times but who can predict when that will be? His passing is great but his scoring comes and goes, and if he has to shoot to score... his shot is off as much as it's on. He needs to be consistent. Also he needs to get those turnovers down because they are still way too high.

Beal is a third year player. His consistency will come but it's no where near where this team needs it to be right now and his scoring is way down.

You can predict John will play reliably excellent PG most nights. That's what really matters. He'll have the occasional stinker, but everyone does.

In theory, would it be nice if he'd lower his average turnovers? Sure. Is it realistic to expect anyone--even HoF caliber point players--that handle the ball and facilitate at the rate he does to actually do it? Not really. John isn't Chris Paul. Nobody else is. John's career average is 3.6 per game. LeBron averages 3.3 for his career and Steve Nash averaged 3.5 during his eight seasons in Phoenix. And Nash averaged a lot less minutes than John. Those are two players that had a similar burden/role as John and they're obviously among the best point players ever. Turnovers come with the territory for John in his role.

In general, I really don't have many complaints about John's play so far. The only minor complaints I've got are he needs to get his FT% up and he needs to take fewer heat check jumpers early in shot clocks. I don't think he's holding us back at all. He's the one guy that's really had his stuff together this season.

Beal is a different story. He's still very up and down and his scoring is the one I actually worry about. He's the finisher, scoring is his role. He's definitely made strides from last season to this one. But he hasn't been reliably good in the short time he's been back. I think he'll get better as the season progresses, but I don't expect him to be reliably good each night like I do for Wall. Probably won't until next season. And this lack of a second AS is holding the team back from being elite like the best teams in the West. But again, who was really expecting that from this team and a 21 year old Beal this season?

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RonArtest15

RonArtest15

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I don't think John needs to average 22+ per night to be considered a superstar.  What he needs to do is be able to score consistently.  He's not able to do that...yet.  He's not a guy I trust taking the last shot, but he's a guy who I trust that can draw a defense and be able to find the open man.  That's what's so special about him.  He runs a team beautifully.  His weakness is still the inconsistency in which he scores.  He may never figure that part of his game out, but that's OK.  He's SO good in other areas (much like Rondo), that his scoring shouldn't be the end-all/be-all in the "superstar" discussion. 

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JoeWolf990

JoeWolf990

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Wall is a true PG. He doesn't need to average 22-24 PPG to have superstar caliber impact.

It's about him running the offense and generating scoring for the offense as a whole. If he has a 17 point 14 assist game, then he is generating so many more points then he would if he scored 22-24 with way fewer assists.

High volume assists has more of a net positive impact on the team as a whole than high volume scoring. Getting other players involved in scoring has a wide ranging positive effect on team performance. It gets guys invested in the game and creates good offensive flow that can sustain itself. It gets the competing hard on both ends.

That's what matters. Not volume scoring. A five assist quarter from Wall where he's breaking down the defense in a variety of ways has a better net effect than a 15 point quarter from Durant or Melo or Kobe.

A 19 & 9 PG with Wall's usage rate, minutes player, and defensive performance is absolutely a superstar. We made the second round of the playoffs as a five seed last season and we're 13 & 6 with no second AS caliber player during that span. That's a testament to Wall's individual quality.

i dont care about this "true pg" or "false pg" or whatever stuff. Dude has to be a better scorer to be a superstar. End of discussion. Pre-knee injury Derrick Rose, Westbrook, Curry are all guys who lead their teams to greater heights because they can put the ball in the basket.

CP3 is the only that doesnt, but before the knee injury he could put up 30-35 points when the team needed it and averaged 21 a game.

Wall has not shown that ability.

You can keep denying it and point to other numbers, etc, but Wall has to score for this team. Its the way he becomes a superstar. Jason Kidd is the only PG Ive ever seen not be able to score but still take his teams to greater heights. And a lot of that as down to playing in the post-Bulls Graveyard that as the early oughts eastern conference

I don't think John needs to average 22+ per night to be considered a superstar.  What he needs to do is be able to score consistently.  He's not able to do that...yet.  He's not a guy I trust taking the last shot, but he's a guy who I trust that can draw a defense and be able to find the open man.  That's what's so special about him.  He runs a team beautifully.  His weakness is still the inconsistency in which he scores.  He may never figure that part of his game out, but that's OK.  He's SO good in other areas (much like Rondo), that his scoring shouldn't be the end-all/be-all in the "superstar" discussion.

it matters. It matters because him scoring will bring this team to another level. He can fall back once Beal comes (or maybe Durant?) but he needs to score. He not a consistent scorer and that bothers me because I thought he would get there.

I dont want Wall to be like Rondo. Wall is so much better than Rondo, its not worth talking about. Wall needs to put the ball in the basket more and I dont know why no one on this staff hasnt told him to do so.

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RonArtest15

RonArtest15

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I completely disagree that for him to be a superstar he needs to up his scoring.  Does he need to show consistency, yes.  However, he doesn't need to average over 22ppg to be considered a superstar.  I think there is a big difference. 

 

In addition, each of those guys (Rose, pre-injury, Curry,) all have weaknesses in their games.  They are better (not so much Rose right now) at scoring the rock at Wall, but there are other areas of Wall's game where he trumps both of those guys. 

 

We get fixated on scoring averages, but we're all waiting on a NBA champ who had it's leading scorer be a PG. 

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Destino

Destino

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I don't think Wall needs to score more.  I think he needs to be more reliable and efficient.  The problem with John Wall's scoring is that it's entirely unpredictable.  One night he can't hit a layup the next he's finishing through contact multiple times.  One night he can't hit a shot to save his life, the next he's hitting them from everywhere.  There is no rhyme or reason to Wall's scoring production and his fg% is way too low for a point guard that has a lot of help around him and essentially gets to pick his own shots every night. 

 

Also I'm just going to throw this out there, Derrick Rose's numbers are **** and everyone likes to act like he's back.  Bet he still starts the all star game. 

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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and my contention is that if this team wants to be NBA champions, he needs to score more.

It's a contention that's based on what? An arbitrary conclusion you made that Wall has to be much more of a volume scorer for the team to be a championship contender?

The team is probably worse overall if Wall sacrifices playmaking to score more. The team is filled with guys who can score. Every one of the starting five and most of the bench players can score. The team almost always plays best when Wall piles up assists rather than points.

Wall is probably good enough right now to lead a two star contender as is. The problem isn't him. It's that the team doesn't have a second star until Beal gets better.

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RonArtest15

RonArtest15

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We will have a better Wall/team if he can score with more consistency.  Destino hit the nail on the head.  You just never know what you're going to get with Wall on any given night.  However, the GREAT thing about Wall is that we still have fantastic chances to win each game even when he's not scoring.  He can beat you in many other ways.  This is what sets him apart from many other PGs in the league. 

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Also I'm just going to throw this out there, Derrick Rose's numbers are **** and everyone likes to act like he's back.  Bet he still starts the all star game.

Yeah, he'll start the AS game. And his numbers are nowhere close to what he used to be. They're actually worse than my pretty pessimistic prediction before the season started. I thought he'd be about 30 MPG and about 18 PPG on ~40-41 % shooting with a 16 PER and ~50-60 games played. The efficiency predictions were there, but his volume of scoring and minutes played are significantly lower than I expected, and it'll be close for him to get to 50 games played IMO.

Guarantee Kyrie Irving is the other AS game starter. Only person I could see bumping him from that is Wade.

Speaking of Irving, I read an article on a Cavs BR website excited about his numbers. They pointed out his 49% FG % and 42% 3P % were, "insane for a high usage point guard." Too bad he's not actually a high usage PG any more. He's a moderate usage second option scoring guard. LeBron runs point for that team and Kyrie's usage rate plummeted from 27-28 % to 23. That's drastic. High 20's usage rate is superstar first option territory. Irving's efficiency has dramatically increased because of his decreased role and the presence of LeBron. His three pointers are assisted now, not taken off the dribble and it's made a huge difference for him.

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Destino

Destino

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They missed two easy buckets at the end of that quarter. Olynyk got Gortat to jump right off the court with a hilariously slow shot fake.

In order to play nba ball at his speed, he must have great skills and instincts. Also, if memory serves he has short arms too. Shorter than he is tall.

Seraphin!!!! Great rebound and finishes it with a little but of nasty on that dunk.

Edited by Destino
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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Seraphin again! This guy is playing for a contract.

If your talking about the put back tap, he had a handful of Olynyks jersey in his left hand.

Welcome to the Seraphin show!

Oh I didn't see that. I thought he got bumped by Olynyk when he was in there air, who didn't keep him boxed out and got a body on him late.

Jeff Green even hits full court shots against us, fortunately it was well after the buzzer.

Yeah wtf. On RealGM there is a small push for us to trade for Jeff Green. I'm like guys, you know he's not like this against anyone else.

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