The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

My biggest concern isn't so much his offensive game as his defensive game. Yesterday McAdoo, who is a much smaller player and a mismatch, was able to muscle Len around in the paint. Grabbed a number of offensive boards and easy buckets in the paint because Len struggled to hold position against him. A part of it was instincts. McAdoo shows really superior instincts at rebounding. But the biggest part of it was a lack of strength. McAdoo looks pretty well built for being the same class as Len. But it should have been a big mismatch in Len's favor. McAdoo is more of a SF than a C.

I think his potential is still very high given how great his frame is and how quick he is. But I think he's a big project given how much bulk and strength he has to develop.

I can't disagree with anything you wrote.

I think Len is a project as well but since we're more than likely picking somewhere between 4-7, I think his upside would be worth it.

I advocated taking Drummond last year based on upside and I'm approaching Len in the same way.

I'd rather go for the "homerun" rather than playing it safe.

[RonArtest15]

I was reading the game recap on BF, and it was noted that Nene has developed knee tendonitis in the wake of overcompensating for his foot problems.

If there are ANY feelers for Nene via trade, EVERY option needs to be explored. I like him a lot, but he's damaged goods, old, and has a horrible contract. Nothing is impossible, so I could forsee a playoff bound team wanting to strike a deal for Nene because he would be an excellent addition to many rosters around the league. I just don't think he's a good fit for us going forward due to what I mentioned before.

[Hersh]

I can't disagree with anything you wrote.

I think Len is a project as well but since we're more than likely picking somewhere between 4-7, I think his upside would be worth it.

I advocated taking Drummond last year based on upside and I'm approaching Len in the same way.

I'd rather go for the "homerun" rather than playing it safe.

This team doesn't need any projects, it needs guys to be able to produce with Wall and Beal from the get go.

[MonkFan8]

Yep, Nene got tagged with an offensive foul for that one.

Not only that, but old ass Joey Crawford gave Witt a technical for yelling that Nene didn't touch him.

Was really a turning point in the game.

If Griffin doesn't get suspended for that you know something is wrong. At least he's lost the respect of his peers.

[RonArtest15]

Not only that, but old ass Joey Crawford gave Witt a technical for yelling that Nene didn't touch him.

Was really a turning point in the game.

If Griffin doesn't get suspended for that you know something is wrong. At least he's lost the respect of his peers.

I don't think Griffin is respected too much outside of his own team. He's got a WELL DESERVED rep.

[MonkFan8]

I don't think Griffin is respected too much outside of his own team. He's got a WELL DESERVED rep.

Hell, even

, lol

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

This team doesn't need any projects, it needs guys to be able to produce with Wall and Beal from the get go.

While I think Len's a project I don't think he's on the level of Vesely or anything.

I think he can be a contributor next season.

[Going Commando]

I was reading the game recap on BF, and it was noted that Nene has developed knee tendonitis in the wake of overcompensating for his foot problems.

If there are ANY feelers for Nene via trade, EVERY option needs to be explored. I like him a lot, but he's damaged goods, old, and has a horrible contract. Nothing is impossible, so I could forsee a playoff bound team wanting to strike a deal for Nene because he would be an excellent addition to many rosters around the league. I just don't think he's a good fit for us going forward due to what I mentioned before.

He's not that old though. Only 30. With his skill level, I would expect him to be able to play out the remainder of his contract before you see a sharp decline. The contract isn't horrible either IMO. 13 million flat per year for 3 more years is very fair value for what he brings--true big man, bruising style that beats up opponents, eats up lots of space, good team D, good passing from the post and the ability to command double teams, averages of about 15-16 PPG & 8-9 RPG on 55% shooting from the field, 70+ % FT shooting, with a 20+ PER for about 30 MPG and 70 games per year. The only seasons where he missed a ton of time were when he tore his ACL and when he had the testicular cancer scare. Those haven't really been recurring problems. The rest is the usual short term low-medium contact injuries you are going to sustain playing true big man basketball. The Plantar Fasciitis is a new injury to this season I believe, and he's been able to play through it without missing a bunch of time (played in 25 of our 38 games), pretty good given how serious the injury is.

The knee tendonitis has definitely been slowing him. He's been trying to take it inside constantly but doesn't have his same burst and lift and isn't getting the calls he used to. He's still been remarkably effective though considering. Nene is just not going to make many bad plays. It's probably not that uncommon for him to play a 30 minute game and make 0 mistakes.

I wouldn't be in a rush to deal Nene, but I would listen to offers. He could help every team in the league pretty much because he takes nothing away from the table on the court and his only "flaw" is his health.

If he could get me back a big man with long term value, I'd consider making a move.

[RonArtest15]

He's not that old though. Only 30. With his skill level, I would expect him to be able to play out the remainder of his contract before you see a sharp decline. The contract isn't horrible either IMO. 13 million flat per year for 3 more years is very fair value for what he brings--true big man, bruising style that beats up opponents, eats up lots of space, good team D, good passing from the post and the ability to command double teams, averages of about 15-16 PPG & 8-9 RPG on 55% shooting from the field, 70+ % FT shooting, with a 20+ PER for about 30 MPG and 70 games per year. The only seasons where he missed a ton of time were when he tore his ACL and when he had the testicular cancer scare. Those haven't really been recurring problems. The rest is the usual short term low-medium contact injuries you are going to sustain playing true big man basketball. The Plantar Fasciitis is a new injury to this season I believe, and he's been able to play through it without missing a bunch of time (played in 25 of our 38 games), pretty good given how serious the injury is.

The knee tendonitis has definitely been slowing him. He's been trying to take it inside constantly but doesn't have his same burst and lift and isn't getting the calls he used to. He's still been remarkably effective though considering. Nene is just not going to make many bad plays. It's probably not that uncommon for him to play a 30 minute game and make 0 mistakes.

I wouldn't be in a rush to deal Nene, but I would listen to offers. He could help every team in the league pretty much because he takes nothing away from the table on the court and his only "flaw" is his health.

If he could get me back a big man with long term value, I'd consider making a move.

Considering his injuries, he's an OLD 30.

Not my trade idea, but someone on RealGm suggested we trade Nene, Ariza, and our 2013 1st (unprotected) for Chris Bosh. Any thoughts?

*They were basing this off of Bosh seemingly looking unhappy as the 3rd fiddle in Miami. He'd be a legit #1 scoring option here in DC, and a core of Bosh, Wall, and Beal would be fun to see.

---------- Post added January-20th-2013 at 01:58 PM ----------

Hell, even

, lol

LMAO.....in fairness this was when he was on the Lakers, but that rep is well known.

[nuposse87]

Considering his injuries, he's an OLD 30.

Not my trade idea, but someone on RealGm suggested we trade Nene, Ariza, and our 2013 1st (unprotected) for Chris Bosh. Any thoughts?

*They were basing this off of Bosh seemingly looking unhappy as the 3rd fiddle in Miami. He'd be a legit #1 scoring option here in DC, and a core of Bosh, Wall, and Beal would be fun to see.

Bosh would be a decent fit but he can also opt out. Its kind of amusing he's only three seasons removed from a 24-11 season. Miami would have to suffer a serious injury that would impeded championship hopes moving forward for them to consider that. I also think they would rather trade out of conference to a team like...Hou. They might offer something like Asik, Patterson+Protected pick.

[RonArtest15]

Bosh would be a decent fit but he can also opt out. Its kind of amusing he's only three seasons removed from a 24-11 season. Miami would have to suffer a serious injury that would impeded championship hopes moving forward for them to consider that. I also think they would rather trade out of conference to a team like...Hou. They might offer something like Asik, Patterson+Protected pick.

Good point. Also, I agree that Houston could probably offer a better package (of players), but our pick would top theirs.

[Going Commando]

I can't disagree with anything you wrote.

I think Len is a project as well but since we're more than likely picking somewhere between 4-7, I think his upside would be worth it.

I advocated taking Drummond last year based on upside and I'm approaching Len in the same way.

I'd rather go for the "homerun" rather than playing it safe.

I think there are a several high upside project players around Len's range.

I think Shabazz, Nerlens, and Zeller are separating themselves as a top 3. Then I think McLemore, Len, and Bennet are a second tier for picks 3-6.

Len's upside is among the highest in the class, but there are a couple other guys like Isiah Austin that have similar upside which makes the rush to go out and get Len a little less.

Also, a negative with Len is how up and down he can be. He'll be dominant one game then be a nonfactor in another. That kind of inconsistency can be really frustrating. Especially when you compare it to a very consistent player like Bennett who has a similar draft range.

Though I think it needs to be said that Bennett is actually 3 months older than Len despite the fact he's a freshman. And he didn't have to make the adjustment of going to a foreign country and dealing with a new language. It's understandable he would be farther along.

Right now I'm leaning toward taking Len 4th.

- I think Nerlens and Shabazz are in some order of 1 and 2. I've been highest on Shabazz thus far, but given our need for a true 5 and the difference in positional value, I'm starting to lean towards Nerlens #1.

- Then I really like Zeller in that third spot.

- McLemore might be the fourth best player in the class but I don't think we can use him ourselves. His entire value to us would be as a trade piece. Unless I had a deal lined up when I picked him, I would probably move him down the board some behind the other two guys I've got in his tier.

- So then it comes down to Len vs. Bennett. Right now I'm leaning towards Len because of the difference in upside. Len is a legit 7+ feet tall and I've read he's got a 7'5 wingspan. Even longer than Noel's. Got to be the longest in the class. He's got a toned frame with broad shoulders suggesting he could gain a lot of good weight eventually. That kind of length and frame with his leaping ability and quick feet means his upside is way higher than Bennett's. Bennett will be a tweener forward and a defensive liability given he's not an ideal matchup against either 3s or 4s. Len will be a size mismatch against most 5s once he gets his strength.

Perhaps yesterday was more of a case of James McAdoo having a brilliant game and being a talented prospect in his own right. Better than people are projecting right now. But it's not super encouraging that he's so much physically stronger than Len.

I don't have a read on where we're going to pick. There's no question we're playing better and there is still over half the season to boost our record. Like you said, could be we'll play our way out of top three range and Len would definitely be the BPA.

---------- Post added January-20th-2013 at 02:22 PM ----------

Bosh would be a decent fit but he can also opt out. Its kind of amusing he's only three seasons removed from a 24-11 season. Miami would have to suffer a serious injury that would impeded championship hopes moving forward for them to consider that. I also think they would rather trade out of conference to a team like...Hou. They might offer something like Asik, Patterson+Protected pick.

Our offer would beat that offer IMO.

But TBH, I don't really like the idea of giving up our draft pick for most players while we're still the favorite to get #1 overall. Bosh isn't really the true big man I am hoping for.

[Destino]

The heat aren't trading Bosh this season. After this season however its a possibility because there is no way the big three are together two more seasons. Next year will bring a tax hit, the following year a tax disaster. They'll need to figure something out. I think they are more likely to try to move Wade though, he's the weakest link of the three.

[Going Commando]

While I think Len's a project I don't think he's on the level of Vesely or anything.

I think he can be a contributor next season.

He's going to have Ves's problems dealing with strength but I agree. Len will come in with a definite NBA position. Ves still hasn't found his NBA position yet.

Len's ceiling and potential impact is also far greater than Vesely's.

One thing I wanted to respond to earlier but forgot was the point you made about drafting for upside.

In some instances I agree, drafting for upside is generally what you have to do in the NBA. You would have taken Drummond. But I think that's a case where drafting for upside and picking Drummond would have been the wrong move. I think Beal was definitely the right pick and the only player from that class I would trade him for today is Anthony Davis.

Upside is a nebulous thing to try and define. First off, you can't make a decision based on upside totally in a vacuum. You have to translate that prospect into a future role for your roster construction specifically. In Beal's case, he was a perfect fit for the build we were trying to create, increasing his raw value for us. The things he already excelled at were so necessary for our immediate success and I'd say we were going to struggle to unlock John Wall's true value and potential without giving him a player like Beal to operate with. Picking Beal produced something greater than the sum of its parts. Would Drummond have produced the same effect? Not immediately at least. Thus Beal fit better into our team construction and had a window of development more in line with John's.

I think another thing you have to do is weight the value of a player's potential with the likelihood they will realize it. It's not going to be precise at all, which is why I've always thought player projection and evaluation is more of an art than science. But I think it's pretty clear Beal is far more likely of realizing his full potential than Drummond is. If you project that Beal's ceiling is as an All Star appearance SG who can be one of the three or four best SGs in the NBA on one hand. Then you project that Drummond's upside is as a potential All Star big man who can be one of the four or five best true bigs and/or centers in the NBA during his prime. That projection isn't all that different, at that point you're just weighting positional value to form the difference. But then weight in things like time frame of development & likelihood of realizing that potential. Also weight in the landscape of the league--is SG currently a position saturated with talent (meaning you can find a good one easily outside of the draft). Is PF/C? I think when you factor all of that stuff in, it negates the advantage PF/C has in position value.

Point being, it's hard to just say Len is the best pick based on his upside versus Zeller's upside/Bennett's upside/McLemore's upside, etc. It's a pretty complicated issue.

[Skin'emAlive]

Id make that trade of Nene + filler for Bosh 10 times out of 10.

[Going Commando]

Id make that trade of Nene + filler for Bosh 10 times out of 10.

This year's draft pick isn't going to be filler. It'd be a way for the Heat to get some cap relief AND flip one good player for two. I'm not interested in extending LeBron's window in Miami.

[Destino]

This year's draft pick isn't going to be filler. It'd be a way for the Heat to get some cap relief AND flip one good player for two. I'm not interested in extending LeBron's window in Miami.

They wouldn't want a large contract like Nene. They'd be more likely to want Okafor and draft picks to clear space. They have no problem attracting free agents.

[Skin'emAlive]

This year's draft pick isn't going to be filler. It'd be a way for the Heat to get some cap relief AND flip one good player for two. I'm not interested in extending LeBron's window in Miami.

Oh, i wasnt advocating trading our first. I was only talking about our player assets. I would not trade our draft pick. Especially not to Miami.

[Going Commando]

Oh' date=' i wasnt advocating trading our first. I was only talking about our player assets. I would not trade our draft pick. Especially not to Miami.[/quote']

I wouldn't either. The trade RA15 said he heard someone throw out there was Nene + Ariza + unprotected 13 pick. I say that's a deal where both sides majorly lose. Miami breaks up a title favorite and we give up so much for probably two seasons of a guy who doesn't put us over the top.

[Going Commando]

Truthaboutit's got a nice little tidbit about the Clippers game:

From Booker on HIS technical foul:

“He should’ve got kicked out of the game for it,” Booker said of Griffin. “Hopefully they go review it after the game and I’m looking for a suspension at least. I mean, he elbowed me to my face.”

Gif of the exchange he's referring to:

It's about time for someone to Kermit Washington this piece of trash. His dumb ass needs to be suspended for all of the flopping.

EDIT: I'm getting from Bulletsforever that it was Booker who wanted Griffin suspended, not Griffin.

That makes a lot more sense to me, but I wouldn't put it past Griffin at all to claim Booker is the one who hit him.

Edited January 21, 2013 by stevemcqueen1

[Going Commando]

So it's official now. Maloofs are out and the Kings are moving to Seattle.

So the guys keeping management from trading Cousins are gone...

Time to try and make a deal for him.

[nuposse87]

So it's official now. Maloofs are out and the Kings are moving to Seattle.

So the guys keeping management from trading Cousins are gone...

Time to try and make a deal for him.

Seraphin+Booker+Ariza+top 3 protected 1st +2nd. Cousins+Salmons. We need to consolidate potential for talent.

[Going Commando]

Seraphin+Booker+Ariza+top 3 protected 1st +2nd. Cousins+Salmons. We need to consolidate potential for talent.

I'd trade either Oak or Nene + the first round pick unprotected for Cousins and Francisco Garcia. I'd offer a pretty good deal for him.

[nuposse87]

I'd trade either Oak or Nene + the first round pick unprotected for Cousins and Francisco Garcia. I'd offer a pretty good deal for him.

My only issue is, that Nene would make an excellent mentor for him. Any potential trade will also have to ensure that the Sonics...err..Kings...or w/e will be able to tank next season to the point they are assured Wiggins or Parker. If they wanted Okafor..I'd offer him up, but I'm willing to wait until the trade deadline with him and seeing which "potential contender" has a moment of desperation. Dream scenario would be Okafor+'13 1st top 3 protected+Seraphin for Cousins+filler. Then follow up with Nene+Ariza+'14 top 3 protected 1st for Love+filler

Wall/Price

Beal/Someone competent/Tomas

Webster/FA/2nd round pick

Love/Booker

Cousins/Jan/FA

One can dream...

[Samuels]

My only issue is, that Nene would make an excellent mentor for him. Any potential trade will also have to ensure that the Sonics...err..Kings...or w/e will be able to tank next season to the point they are assured Wiggins or Parker. If they wanted Okafor..I'd offer him up, but I'm willing to wait until the trade deadline with him and seeing which "potential contender" has a moment of desperation. Dream scenario would be Okafor+'13 1st top 3 protected+Seraphin for Cousins+filler. Then follow up with Nene+Ariza+'14 top 3 protected 1st for Love+filler

Wall/Price

Beal/Someone competent/Tomas

Webster/FA/2nd round pick

Love/Booker

Cousins/Jan/FA

One can dream...

No defense thats a 2nd rd playoff team at best with very good coaching.