Conn Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Arsenic, we'd be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for McNabb at this point, if we can eventually trade him. Never mind a top-5 pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 The hyperbole of being a 'perfect fit' aside.I would have said no Ponder isn't a fit for Shanahan's offense because if you look at Mike Shanahan's Denver offenses the QBs had big arms guys that and could really move. But after watching a season of Kyle's Houston version of Mike's offense I think a QB like Ponder could work. The only way that you'd think Ponder would fit in this offense is if you'd never watched Shanny's offense in Denver, Kyle's offense in Houston and started watching last year and thought that McNabb was brilliant. The fact is, all we saw last year was McNabb doing his Eagles WCO progression instead of Shanahan's. This offense is built to work off the play action pass and take shots downfield, not a typical dink and dunk, which is what we saw last year and was Ponder would excel at. Hell. we only got to see it run properly when Rexy started and that was scewed because even though he knows the offense, he shouldn't be starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Kyle's offense is a rhythm intermediate passing game. Its focus is on the QB making the right decision within the confines of the offensive system. It doesn't require a QB w/ a bigtime arm or a super mobile QB. Matt Schaub doesn't have a big arm and isn't very mobile but he's very productive in Kyle's offense. I think Stanzi, Dalton and Ponder could all execute Kyle's offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenic Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Arsenic, we'd be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for McNabb at this point, if we can eventually trade him. Never mind a top-5 pick I meant, basically, give the Cards DMac to switch #1's with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I meant, basically, give the Cards DMac to switch #1's with us. Ahh duh, sorry. I still don't think that's possible. The value needed to jump from #10 to #5 is way higher than McNabb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarobinson Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Kyle's offense is a rhythm intermediate passing game.Its focus is on the QB making the right decision within the confines of the offensive system. It doesn't require a QB w/ a bigtime arm or a super mobile QB. Matt Schaub doesn't have a big arm and isn't very mobile but he's very productive in Kyle's offense. I think Stanzi, Dalton and Ponder could all execute Kyle's offense. Actually Schaub's arm is pretty huge. It just looks bad because his balance and footwork is crap and he can't get any power behind throws on the rollout. But watch him step into one from the pocket--the guy has a cannon. He has a much bigger arm than the guys you mentioned. Grossman has a cannon. Then you look at Mike's QBs... McNabb, Elway, Cutler, Plummer... these are all super mobile guys with big time arms. Regardless of what you think of Schaub, he's definitely not the prototype for this offense. The only one of the guys you mentioned who comes close is Ponder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laxpunk2006 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Ahh duh, sorry. I still don't think that's possible. The value needed to jump from #10 to #5 is way higher than McNabb. I agree but things change when coaches start feeling their seat warming up. The acquisition of McNabb may help convince Fitzgerald to extend his contract, even if Donovan isn't actually in their long term plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Actually Schaub's arm is pretty huge. It just looks bad because his balance and footwork is crap and he can't get any power behind throws on the rollout. But watch him step into one from the pocket--the guy has a cannon. He has a much bigger arm than the guys you mentioned.Grossman has a cannon. Then you look at Mike's QBs... McNabb, Elway, Cutler, Plummer... these are all super mobile guys with big time arms. Do you even understand my point about the offense? Mike vs Kyle? We have very different judgements of QB arm talent if you think Schaub and Grossman have cannons. Judging by how Grossman's played in the bast I bet he think's he has a cannon. (IIRC I think I've heard Schaub admit that he doesn't have a big arm.) Regardless of what you think of Schaub, he's definitely not the prototype for this offense. The only one of the guys you mentioned who comes close is Ponder. Do you understand my post at all? I don't think Schaub is a fit for Mike's Denver version of the offense either; but this is Kyle's or the Houston version of the offense and Schaub is a perfect fit. If you think Ponder is a fit then you should think that Stanzi and Dalton are fits also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I think both Shanahans place accuracy over having a cannon. Of course, having both would perfect. Should be interesting to see what QB we end up with. I think it will be a guy like Ponder or Stanzi. Maybe Locker if he falls out of the first and Mike S can't resist those physical skills. Folks really need to stop with the McNabb to Arizona nonsense. They don't want him. Whisenhunt isn't a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarobinson Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 But Kyle didn't pick Schaub, so how can we know that Schaub is a model of what Kyle is looking for? Mike's QBs are relevant because Mike will have the final say over any QB selection. If you think Kyle is picking our next QB, I've got a bridge to sell you. Anyhow, the reason why I think Ponder is a better fit than Stanzi and Dalton is because he can move much better and the Shanahan playbook is rife with rollouts. Mike likes mobile QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Locker is the perfect fit.* He has great mobility and has an arm to make all the throws. With Kyles vert passing attack you'd like to see Locker back there. *assuming he can become more accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Because Schaub put up elite production in Kyle's offense. Production and on field achievement are the bottom line. It's not all academic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icbmayday Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I LOVE the guy for Shanny's system I would just be worried about his health issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty#30 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 The only way that you'd think Ponder would fit in this offense is if you'd never watched Shanny's offense in Denver, Kyle's offense in Houston and started watching last year and thought that McNabb was brilliant. The fact is, all we saw last year was McNabb doing his Eagles WCO progression instead of Shanahan's. This offense is built to work off the play action pass and take shots downfield, not a typical dink and dunk, which is what we saw last year and was Ponder would excel at. Hell. we only got to see it run properly when Rexy started and that was scewed because even though he knows the offense, he shouldn't be starting. Which is precisely why Jake Locker is the best pick... I think he might make it till the second round, but if you really like him go for it with the first pick. All this back and forth over if he's worth it or not is silly. I'm telling you... we pass on him at 10 there's no guarantee he'll be there at the end of the first. The kid was projected as the top to go even given a lackluster season last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Which is precisely why Jake Locker is the best pick... I think he might make it till the second round, but if you really like him go for it with the first pick. All this back and forth over if he's worth it or not is silly. I'm telling you... we pass on him at 10 there's no guarantee he'll be there at the end of the first. The kid was projected as the top to go even given a lackluster season last year. Locker isn't a great fit either. Here is a guy that has good footwork, decent mechanics, been in a WCO for 2 years and still is a career 53.675% comp passer. If you only count his time in the WCO, it's still only 56.8%. You can't coach up accuracy, especially when his mechanics are already pretty sound to begin with. Locker is a late 2nd/3rd round QB and there are QB's with better skillsets (although not all better mentally/personality wise) than he is in this draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayAction Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Locker is the perfect fit.*He has great mobility and has an arm to make all the throws. With Kyles vert passing attack you'd like to see Locker back there. *assuming he can become more accurate. That's a big assumption that you have to make! Considering that his accuracy issues have occurred when he's passing from the pocket (reduced throwing lanes, guys with hands up etc) I would say that the completion rate is unlikely to improve. BTW - a QB doesn't need to have a rocket of an arm to make the deep throws. The ball may not get there with velocity but it can still get there. The knock on Brady was that he didn't shine on the vertical passing routes out of college. He still doesn't but he can make those throws. As long as the QB doesn't have a noodle arm (e.g. Wuerffel) I would rate accuracy over arm-strength any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 If you only count his time in the WCO, it's still only 56.8%. Just for reference: 56.8% would put him just a hair ahead of: Matt Stafford: 56.6% it puts him a hair behind Josh Freeman: 57.9% and not that far off from Matt Ryan: 59.3% Jay Cutler: 60% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 How can I again point out that Ponder doesn't fit this offense? I'll let this article do it. Christian Ponder - QB - PlayerAccording to CBS Sports' Rob Rang, Florida State QB Christian Ponder is "generating ... first-round buzz" after an impressive Combine. Multiple accounts claimed that Ponder was the best, most accurate passer in Indy, and Rang passes along growing belief that five quarterbacks could be drafted in the top-32 picks. Along with Ponder, they would be Cam Newton, Blaine Gabbert, Ryan Mallett, and Jake Locker. Per Rang, Ponder is now "viewed by some as the top true West Coast Offense quarterback in the draft." Seeing as that Shanny does not run a "true West Coast Offense", Ponder would fit in as well as, oh I don't know... McNabb or Kolb really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Which Shanny? Mike or Kyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Just for reference: 56.8%would put him just a hair ahead of: Matt Stafford: 56.6% it puts him a hair behind Josh Freeman: 57.9% and not that far off from Matt Ryan: 59.3% Jay Cutler: 60% Remember that the 56.8% is only for 2 years, so you can't compare those apples to oranges. But let's take that 56.8% and run with it. I was never a fan of Stafford and thought that he was nowhere near a franchise QB. Same but to a greater extent with Freeman. Now Ryan and Cutler came close enough to 60% for my taste. You can see, when Cutler was first with Denver and Ryan throughout his career in Atl, the difference that it makes. ---------- Post added February-28th-2011 at 06:10 PM ---------- Which Shanny?Mike or Kyle Yes. Considering that Kyle is calling plays from Mike's book and learned the offense from Kubiak, who learned it from Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Remember that the 56.8% is only for 2 years, so you can't compare those apples to oranges.But let's take that 56.8% and run with it. I was never a fan of Stafford and thought that he was nowhere near a franchise QB. Same but to a greater extent with Freeman. Now Ryan and Cutler came close enough to 60% for my taste. You can see, when Cutler was first with Denver and Ryan throughout his career in Atl, the difference that it makes. I think the comparison w/ Locker's last 2 year is more of an apples to apples comparison because Ty Willingham's coaching and offense wasn't close to pro-style lets be honest it wasn't even good. If you really look at it Locker is really a sophmore in terms of running that offense. But, I digress. I posted those QBs college comp% because you said that you can't coach accuracy and refered to Locker's comp% I was just showing you NFL QBs that had similar comp% improved in the pros. Personally I think comp% and accuracy are similar or related but not synonymous. Yes. Considering that Kyle is calling plays from Mike's book and learned the offense from Kubiak, who learned it from Mike. If you're really honest and really look at Kyle's playcalling, gameplan and tendencies there are major differences. And those difference steer and guide the offense. That's how coaching trees grow and evolve. Mike Shanahan, Sam Wyche and Mike Holmgren all coached under Bill Walsh but there offense aren't the same. Gruden, Reid and Brad Childress coached under Holmgren and there offenses aren't the same. It may be a sublime distinction. But for an easy to see difference just start with the run/pass ratio. Mike for his career has been just at 50/50. Kyle for his short career is around 60/40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins4ever Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 While I don't think Christian Ponder will be a first round pick, he just very well might be the steal of the entire draft for whichever team selects him in the later rounds. Jake Locker will be drafted after Blaine Gabbart and Cam Newton. But Ponder, I reckon, will be the best pro QB out of all of them. He's worth a pick in the second round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivelikenice Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 What would the realistic cost be to get NE's pick at the top of Rd 2? I just don't see them being able to fit all these picks on their roster and they always seem open to trading for future picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsTribeVA Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 It may be a sublime distinction.But for an easy to see difference just start with the run/pass ratio. Mike for his career has been just at 50/50. Kyle for his short career is around 60/40. You mean Kyle's 60/40 pass/run, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I think the comparison w/ Locker's last 2 year is more of an apples to apples comparison because Ty Willingham's coaching and offense wasn't close to pro-style lets be honest it wasn't even good.If you really look at it Locker is really a sophmore in terms of running that offense. But, I digress. I posted those QBs college comp% because you said that you can't coach accuracy and refered to Locker's comp% I was just showing you NFL QBs that had similar comp% improved in the pros. Personally I think comp% and accuracy are similar or related but not synonymous. If you're really honest and really look at Kyle's playcalling, gameplan and tendencies there are major differences. And those difference steer and guide the offense. That's how coaching trees grow and evolve. Mike Shanahan, Sam Wyche and Mike Holmgren all coached under Bill Walsh but there offense aren't the same. Gruden, Reid and Brad Childress coached under Holmgren and there offenses aren't the same. It may be a sublime distinction. But for an easy to see difference just start with the run/pass ratio. Mike for his career has been just at 50/50. Kyle for his short career is around 60/40. The offense last year was predicated on the strength of the team and that was not the running game. Year one of teaching their version of the ZBS to an over the hill center, a power blocking LG, a journeyman RG, a rookie LT and a RT coming off of hip surgery doesn't bode well for a Shanahan style offense. Kyle's playcalling in Houston was heavily slanted towards airing it out because their OL was much better at pass blocking than run blocking, even with Gibbs there as their ZBS guru. Not to mention when you have Andre Johnson as your best offensive weapon and a litany of under achieving and oft injured RB's. And if you want a true and accurate depiction of how Shanahan's offense works and how it wins much more often when he runs the ball more, see: http://extremeskins.com/showthread.php?315837-Reconcilement-of-the-Shanahan-s-offenses-through-the-numbers-and-outcomes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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