ES Soccer Thread

[Elessar78]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/datablog/2012/dec/24/world-best-footballers-top-100-list

[dchogs]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/datablog/2012/dec/24/world-best-footballers-top-100-list

And Spain is in second with 23.

12 are on barca, 10 on RM. Leaving ONE one some other random team in la liga. And it is better? Sure Barca and RM are amazing and two of the top teams in the world, if not the top two... but two power teams in the league don't make it the best league.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Just ridiculous. You are seriously claiming that there are just four world class players in the EPL. How many do you think are in the other top leagues?

No Hart, Suarez, Balotelli, Vermaelen or Aguero , to name five. Or Rooney or Bale or Mata or Giroud or Cisse.

EDIT: nevermind. It's pointless discussing with you.

apologies, I forgot about him. Kun Aguero is def a guy who is world class.

The rest of those names tho

Vermaelen is a painfully average centerback who is probably 3rd best at Arsenal, and I say this as an Arsenal fan. Giroud and Cisse? Joe Hart? :hysterical:

The rest of those names are ridiculous.

Compare the names I mentioned from 4-5 years ago and look at the names you tried to pass off as world class. Not even in the same stratosphere.

That doesnt mean the premier league isnt entertaining, but their has been a decline in star talent over the last 5 years. A major decline.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/datablog/2012/dec/24/world-best-footballers-top-100-list

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/12/21/1356095966810/League-graphic-for-top-10-002.jpg

a) The Guardian is based where?

do yourself a favor and look at some of the names on that list.

Gerrard Pique has been doo doo since he started dating Shakira and he made their top 25. Patrice Evra also.The worst name mentioned is Diego Forlan who is struggling to score for Internacional. Puyol mentioned as well and at 34 despite being injured most of the last 3 years, lol.

The only thing I will give them props for is putting Xavi over Iniesta, but thats it. That list is horrible.

---------- Post added December-28th-2012 at 10:02 AM ----------

And Spain is in second with 23.

12 are on barca, 10 on RM. Leaving ONE one some other random team in la liga. And it is better? Sure Barca and RM are amazing and two of the top teams in the world, if not the top two... but two power teams in the league don't make it the best league.

who said La Liga is better? But the true world class players are in that league.

The premiership is the most entertaining league in the world, but its lacking football wise, imo. I think Bundesliga is a better league, and technically the Serie A has it.

Shoot, even looking at La Liga, you can rag on that league all you want but their top 4 teams would give the two Manchester squads a great match and would be favored over the other three or four top four contenders

They have also been more successful than the premiership in Europa League/UEFA Cup over the last 5 seasons.

Edited December 28, 2012 by AsiaticSkinsFan

[Elessar78]

Who cares where it's based. They used their Spanish, German, and Brazilian correspondents among others. Go ahead come up with a list of 100 that is markedly different. Go ahead. I'd say you COULD conceivably come up with 4 players in Spain to swing it but the point is there that your orig statement is bogus. And you def won't find a dozen who'll swing it for Italy .

[jobaga]

The rest of those names are ridiculous.

just curious? what would your list of world class players look like?

[Elessar78]

The talk of tactics is largely misleading. If it were tactics over players then teams with great managers would win the league. Tactics are overrated. And there's no secret cutting edge tactics to the game that , say, sir Alex knows that Jose mou doesn't.

[AsburySkinsFan]

This is what a lot of the soccer-haters and the Jim Romes of the world refuse to see. They fixate on the 1-0/0-0 finishes and not these games that occur quite frequently—like no account West Ham beating Billion Dollar Chelsea a few weeks ago.

But you also have well-versed people these days calling Barcelona boring, when it's the opponent's tactics dictating what they do.

Indeed, and it took me getting into working with soccer to begin to appreciate the sport rather than the American caricature of it.

Anyway, ASF how did your kid's season in goal wrap up?

He did really well, finished the season as the team's starting keeper and the coach moved him to mid-fielder as well, but he's gotten a taste for the dirt and loves keeper. His team won the regular season championship, but there was no post season. There was however a tournament that we played in, but we got flat smoked by some travel teams that had 3/4's of their team two years older than our team, so that was a bit of a downer. But, we are looking at the potential of building a year-round youth team, but not wreck league, we need players who are committed.

All-in-all a good season though.

[Elessar78]

That's great! It's vitally important that even kids who play keeper primarily be able to play with their feet. It's a fun position and its in demand any level and any part of the country. One of my keepers who moved to Florida just came back for the holidays and her patents told me she got a full ride to prestigious private school because their coach scouted her before one of his games.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Who cares where it's based. They used their Spanish, German, and Brazilian correspondents among others. Go ahead come up with a list of 100 that is markedly different. Go ahead. I'd say you COULD conceivably come up with 4 players in Spain to swing it but the point is there that your orig statement is bogus. And you def won't find a dozen who'll swing it for Italy .

I give them credit for coming up with the names, but 27 premiership players smack of premiership bias and the non-English based names are the players you would expect to be named in one of these lists.

I do give credit for recognizing how good a team Shaktar is, but I wonder if they would have included those players before they outplayed Chelsea twice?

just curious? what would your list of world class players look like?

for me?

Buffon in goal

Marcelo at left back, Lahm at right back. Centerbacks would be Vidic and Thiago Silva

Busquets, Xavi, and Yaya in central midfield

Cronado, Cavani, and Messi up top

bench would have van Persie, Manuel Neur, Dani Alves, Iniesta, Sergio Ramos, Chiellini, Falcao.

Aguero, Silva, Kompany, Zlatan, Casillias, Mascherano, Cesc, would all be thereabouts

if others want to name their World Class players, id love to see it.

---------- Post added December-28th-2012 at 10:56 AM ----------

The talk of tactics is largely misleading. If it were tactics over players then teams with great managers would win the league. Tactics are overrated. And there's no secret cutting edge tactics to the game that , say, sir Alex knows that Jose mou doesn't.

ok, so if it isnt tactics and its players, then why are Premiership teams getting their butts kicked in Europe the last few seasons? Especially since they have all these top players you keep talking about?

---------- Post added December-28th-2012 at 10:59 AM ----------

Indeed, and it took me getting into working with soccer to begin to appreciate the sport rather than the American caricature of it.

He did really well, finished the season as the team's starting keeper and the coach moved him to mid-fielder as well, but he's gotten a taste for the dirt and loves keeper. His team won the regular season championship, but there was no post season. There was however a tournament that we played in, but we got flat smoked by some travel teams that had 3/4's of their team two years older than our team, so that was a bit of a downer. But, we are looking at the potential of building a year-round youth team, but not wreck league, we need players who are committed.

All-in-all a good season though.

thats wsup, congratulations. Im glad he won.

Edited December 28, 2012 by AsiaticSkinsFan

[AsburySkinsFan]

That's great! It's vitally important that even kids who play keeper primarily be able to play with their feet. It's a fun position and its in demand any level and any part of the country. One of my keepers who moved to Florida just came back for the holidays and her patents told me she got a full ride to prestigious private school because their coach scouted her before one of his games.

We keep being told the same thing about the keeper position, and we really are beginning to see the difference it makes. There were some teams we beat this year who had better forwards and mid-fielders than we did, but they were incredibly weak at keeper, they were counting on their offense to win them games, and so they put some of their smaller kids in goal as tokens. But, with quality keepers (which we had two) they weren't able to score the five or six goals needed to offset the goals they gave up like they had been able to before. We actually began to see those teams adjusting their line-ups because of that when they played us, which was flattering to say the least. We still beat them though because they weren't keepers first.

There were some kids on those teams you'd hear verbally getting frustrated, my son would dive on the ball and the striker would trip over him and as he was punting the ball down field they'd be complaining that he was an idiot. He took a couple good hits, which should have been penalties but with kids reffing games it wasn't gonna happen.

We have been told by a couple coaches that if my son keeps playing keeper at the level he's at now then a soccer scholarship shouldn't be a problem. By no means am I planning on D-1 schools, I'd just be happy for him to get a scholarship to a private Christian school around here. He has plans for MLS and EPL though.

---------- Post added December-28th-2012 at 11:02 AM ----------

thats wsup, congratulations. Im glad he won.

Thank you!

Edited December 28, 2012 by AsburySkinsFan

[Elessar78]

We keep being told the same thing about the keeper position, and we really are beginning to see the difference it makes. There were some teams we beat this year who had better forwards and mid-fielders than we did, but they were incredibly weak at keeper, they were counting on their offense to win them games, and so they put some of their smaller kids in goal as tokens. But, with quality keepers (which we had two) they weren't able to score the five or six goals needed to offset the goals they gave up like they had been able to before. We actually began to see those teams adjusting their line-ups because of that when they played us, which was flattering to say the least. We still beat them though because they weren't keepers first.

There were some kids on those teams you'd hear verbally getting frustrated, my son would dive on the ball and the striker would trip over him and as he was punting the ball down field they'd be complaining that he was an idiot. He took a couple good hits, which should have been penalties but with kids reffing games it wasn't gonna happen.

We have been told by a couple coaches that if my son keeps playing keeper at the level he's at now then a soccer scholarship shouldn't be a problem. By no means am I planning on D-1 schools, I'd just be happy for him to get a scholarship to a private Christian school around here. He has plans for MLS and EPL though.

---------- Post added December-28th-2012 at 11:02 AM ----------

Thank you!

It's one of the "big" secrets about college soccer here in this country. Currently, there's a lot of spots and money out there for players that are interested. Yes it's harder to get into most D1 schools but in terms of pure soccer the top D2 and D3 schools can actually beat most D1 schools, not the top ones mind you but the middle to lower tier D1s aren't all their cracked up to be. The thing we tell the players in the club from an early age is that if they want to play in college grades matter. Because there's very limited athletic scholarship money but if they have a B or higher GPA then the coach can dip into academic scholarship monies and other grants to pay the way.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's one of the "big" secrets about college soccer here in this country. Currently, there's a lot of spots and money out there for players that are interested. Yes it's harder to get into most D1 schools but in terms of pure soccer the top D2 and D3 schools can actually beat most D1 schools, not the top ones mind you but the middle to lower tier D1s aren't all their cracked up to be. [/Quote]

Yep, that's a big secret and the secret is maintained because people put such a heavy emphasis on Div-1 as if the division rating was based on the strength of the athletic programs offered by a school rather than the number of programs offered. As such if a D1 school does not emphasize soccer (i.e. Univ. Kentucky) then a D2 school that does emphasize soccer can have a much better soccer program.

The thing we tell the players in the club from an early age is that if they want to play in college grades matter. Because there's very limited athletic scholarship money but if they have a B or higher GPA then the coach can dip into academic scholarship monies and other grants to pay the way.

I never considered that the coach could dip into academic scholarships, nice. We emphasize academics even in elementary school, C's are unacceptable. Which BTW is a continental difference from the way I was raised.

Edited December 28, 2012 by AsburySkinsFan

[Corcaigh]

That's great! It's vitally important that even kids who play keeper primarily be able to play with their feet.

Yes ... this is getting much greater attention because of the greater emphasis on possession, and on pressing to counter it.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Corcaigh

[AsburySkinsFan]

Yes ... this is getting much greater emphasis because of the greater emphasis on possession, and on pressing to counter it.

Explain this for me please.

[Corcaigh]

Explain this for me please.

Maintaining possession - good ball retention starts with the keeper. Having the keeper as an additional option to pass back to and out again under control can help manage the game tempo - the other team can't score when you have the ball. The role of the keeper changes to include being a point of distributing the ball using his feet, with both short and longer passes.

The keeper is also a point of relief against 'pressing'. A feature of the modern game that was pretty much absent a couple of decades ago is the use of aggressive pressing ... the team without the ball pushes up and denies the opposition space to work in. Pressing takes a lot of energy, and you see the best pressing teams, like Barcelona, limit the amount of high pressing they do when they play a team with a keeper who can distribute the ball very well.

Victor Valdes at Barcelona and Michel Vorm at Swansea are both very good at building from the back and helping with ball retention.

Here's a graphic of Vorm from a game last year. 47 passes with his feet in a single match. 45 successfully to his own team and many short and inside his own penalty area:

Edited December 28, 2012 by Corcaigh

[Elessar78]

Explain this for me please.

Pressing is like a full court press. The idea, teams like Barca and Holland, chase the ball immediately after they lose the ball: Disrupt the build up and the opponents won't get a worthwhile attack going at the other end. All tactics, there's that word again, revolve around creating or destroying time and space (see why there's no new "tactics" just the application). With pressing you reduce the time and space in the opponent's half rather than your own, the thinking is that why wait to do it when you're already closer to the opponent's goal?

Rinus Michels, a great Dutch coach, said there's only two general systems in soccer: playmaking and counter-attacking (active or reactive). The pressing belongs in the active system. Counter attacking "lets" the opponent into your half, so your team can have room to counter into.

Further, who are the worst ball handlers on your team? Probably the defenders, so pressuring defenders makes more sense than midfielders becuase there's a greater chance they'll cough it up. Since the 90s there's been the no pass back rule, so after the ball is in play the goalkeeper cannot pick it up again (wasn't always the case). So when the other team is on a "full court press" they need to be able to pass back to the gk as a safety valve. But it's also momentary as soon as they pass back to the keeper the opponents will chase it down hoping the gk will cough it up.

Most youth teams will not pass back to the keeper but that's mainly because they stick guys who can't play with their feet in goal.

One of the most basic rules about passing back to the keeper is to not make a pass that IF THE KEEPER MISSES THE BALL it will not roll into your own net. ALWAYS make the pass wide of the goal.

Hope all this makes sense.

[Corcaigh]

Most youth teams will not pass back to the keeper but that's mainly because they stick guys who can't play with their feet in goal.

But imagine if you do have a keeper who can use their feet. It's like playing with 12.

[Elessar78]

Not saying they shouldn't. Just sayin' that, on this side of the pond, most of the youth soccer is a bit naive.

[Corcaigh]

Not saying they shouldn't. Just sayin' that, on this side of the pond, most of the youth soccer is a bit naive.

It's dependent on the personality of the coach and personnel. When teams reach the point where they are playing a higher level of opposition consistently, they have a choice. Being possession-oriented and having the ability to manage the game tempo in this way is one way to go.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

you must not just press and ball chase tho

You push your backline higher up to congest the field, and a player presses their zone if the ball is there, while his teammates mark the passing options.

Pressing is usually done in your attacking half.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Hope all this makes sense.

It does, and as a matter of fact I was just reading about the "pass back" rule earlier today, our youth leagues haven't called that once in all the years I've been coaching (five years, eight seasons). I get why they put the rule in place, but it certainly seems like there is no small amount of convtroversy surrounding the law.

[Corcaigh]

It does, and as a matter of fact I was just reading about the "pass back" rule earlier today, our youth leagues haven't called that once in all the years I've been coaching (five years, eight seasons). I get why they put the rule in place, but it certainly seems like there is no small amount of convtroversy surrounding the law.

Before the law was introduced the defense could just kick the ball back to the keeper who could pick it up and hold it - total time wasting. Your youth leagues are allowing the keeper to pick the ball up from a deliberate back pass?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Before the law was introduced the defense could just kick the ball back to the keeper who could pick it up and hold it - total time wasting. Your youth leagues are allowing the keeper to pick the ball up from a deliberate back pass?

Yes....let's put it this way....it has NEVER been called by any ref in any game I've ever been involved in, but then I've never run into time wasting because the keepers always seem to get the ball down field.

[Corcaigh]

Yes....let's put it this way....it has NEVER been called by any ref in any game I've ever been involved in, but then I've never run into time wasting because the keepers always seem to get the ball down field.

It's possible that your league has modified rules. Leagues often like to do this. Maybe your commissioner was a keeper in the old days and didn't like the rule change.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's possible that your league has modified rules. Leagues often like to do this. Maybe your commissioner was a keeper in the old days and didn't like the rule change.

Different leagues, various counties....nothing. (U6----U12)

I think if there was deliberate time wasting, i.e. pass back + keeper holding the ball for extended time then we'd probably see it.

Edited December 28, 2012 by AsburySkinsFan