The Chalk Talk Random Question Thread

[KDawg]

Greetings fine ES'ers. I thought of this thread awhile ago, and I just now decided to put it into practice. We have quite a few people who coach football on this forum, who have played football on this forum and who study the game inside and out. We also have some that have lives () and don't know quite as much about the game.

This is where you can feel free to fire off a question and hopefully get an answer.

I don't know everything, so there's a chance I won't be able to help you. The more football specific question, the easier it will be to answer. I can't tell you what safety scheme the New England Patriots use.

But if I don't know it, I'm sure the other football gurus around here should be able to help you out.

I'll do my best to get to each question, but you may need to have some patience as I don't have unlimited time on my hands

So, fire away!

[Coral]

Awesome idea! Definitely a bright spot in the post-draft/pre-camp doldrums.

I think I'll go right for the jugular and ask you how you think our linebacker corps will play out.

I've secretly been rooting for Jeremy Jarmon to earn himself a role, (especially with Andre Carter's previous experiences as an outside backer), but I'm not so sure he can be effective so soon after blowing out his ACL.

Also, I'm VERY skeptical about this Lorenzo Alexander experiment. As I mentioned in my other thread, Brian Orakpo seems to be the only "sure bet".

[E-Dog Night]

Sweet.

Getting a WR matched up against a LB is obviously something Shanahan & Co. will be trying to do, and the obvious way to is put a WR in the slot and run a crossing route against zone coverage, or man-to-man when the D is not in the nickel.

What are some other ways?

[Hubbs]

Speaking of the Patriots, they run the best horizontal-space-using offensive scheme in the league.

Josh McDaniels is trying to duplicate it. I bet he can with Tebow, which is why I believe that was a good, if overvalued, pick. We could learn a lot from the Patriots, Broncos, and Saints (who are pushing for the Horizontal Title) in terms of getting our playmakers into space.

[terpskins10]

Can you talk about how gap control differs in a 3-4 as opposed to a 4-3 and how line play is different in general?

Maybe that way we can figure out this Haynesworth mess better.

[KDawg]

Awesome idea! Definitely a bright spot in the post-draft/pre-camp doldrums.

I think I'll go right for the jugular and ask you how you think our linebacker corps will play out.

I've secretly been rooting for Jeremy Jarmon to earn himself a role, (especially with Andre Carter's previous experiences as an outside backer), but I'm not so sure he can be effective so soon after blowing out his ACL.

Also, I'm VERY skeptical about this Lorenzo Alexander experiment. As I mentioned in my other thread, Brian Orakpo seems to be the only "sure bet".

I'm not sure. The whole "hybrid" defense thing is throwing me for a loop with this. I'm not sure what to expect at all from our defense or who will be playing where in it. We also don't know what's going to happen with Rocky McIntosh.

As it stands now, Fletcher and McIntosh would probably play inside as they are better run stuffers than they are coverage guys, but are very capable of playing the zone. Orakpo is a lock at the weak backer for his edge rushing abilities. Strong side backer I'm completely unsure of. So unsure that I don't even want to venture a guess. We don't have the typical strong side backer. A guy that's stout against the run but can cover a TE. I'm worried about that spot, but again, we're not sure how Haslett is going to run his defense, anything said is based on speculation.

The answers here can be more visible once we see how this defense plays out.

[SWFLSkins]

Chalk talk could be a youtube sensation. This is a fantastic idea.

I would like to know how the Redskins could ultilize a two TE set within the WCO. Would they have two TE's two wideouts at the sametime, or a blocking back with two TE's and one wideout? What combinations do you see them using to confuse opposing D's. I don't know much about what Kyle ran otherthan it was successful.

There is an interesting article covering my question about TE's in Bubba's BN...

http://extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=323032

Sun May 2, 2010 --from FFMastermind.com

#

The Washington Post reports TE Fred Davis emerged as a target for the Redskins in the 2009 after TE Chris Cooley suffered a season-ending ankle injury in October. But now, with Cooley healthy, there are questions about how the Redskins will manage the position. "The only position where one guy is out there is quarterback," OC Kyle Shanahan said following the team's first mini-camp. "Whatever it is, our best player is going to be out on the field. If we feel two tight ends are better than three receivers, we'll put two tight ends out there and go with two receivers. It's whatever your personnel is, and you have to adjust that way as a coach." Davis, a second-round draft pick in 2008, won the John Mackey Award as the nation's top collegiate tight end while playing at the University of Southern California. His welcome to Washington, however, was initially harsh after he overslept on the third day of a minicamp that May. He fared better during the team's first minicamp under HC Mike Shanahan. With his development last season, Davis has taken steps to put that infamous incident behind him and assert himself as an important part of the Redskins' young core of talent. He started 10 games last season and finished with 48 receptions for 509 yards. Davis said he views his upcoming third season as a very important one for his professional future. He says it's a serious year because "you're not a rookie anymore, you don't have any more chances." "People look at you now like, 'Is he a developer or one of those guys who doesn't work out in the NFL?'" Davis says. "I want to be an everyday starter in the league some day, so I've got to make the best out of it." Exactly how Davis will factor into the offense with Cooley back in the mix remains a question. Both are better pass-catching tight ends. Typically, in a two-tight end offense, one of the tight ends will take on primary blocking responsibilities and the other focus on a pass route. The team has other options as a blocking tight end: TE Dennis Morris, TE Sean Ryan and TE Lee Vickers. But clearly, the top two on the depth chart are Cooley and Davis. The battle for playing time will pit a representative of the Redskins' future, Davis, against a member of their establishment, Cooley, who was drafted in 2004 but already has the second-most receptions by a tight end in franchise history.

[Major Harris]

Can you talk about how gap control differs in a 3-4 as opposed to a 4-3 and how line play is different in general?

Maybe that way we can figure out this Haynesworth mess better.

i'm no expert, especially in the 3-4. but the main difference is you need a big stud in the 3-4 who can control both A gaps (between the center and guards). i'm not really sure why a.h. couldn't be that guy, other than not wanting to take on constant double teams which takes him out of the limelight.

people act as if the 3-4 is some crazy exotic scheme, it's still football. you still have guys responsible for gaps, it's just that there's more of them lined up off of the LOS. it does create more flexibility in how you can bring pressure, it just seems to me that it's easier to hide where you're bringing it from.

[jtyler42]

I'll give it a shot, and I hope I can answer your questions!

Sweet.

Getting a WR matched up against a LB is obviously something Shanahan & Co. will be trying to do, and the obvious way to is put a WR in the slot and run a crossing route against zone coverage, or man-to-man when the D is not in the nickel.

What are some other ways?

Some other ways that you could do it are through motion, and/or bunch, close/compressed formations...

Can you talk about how gap control differs in a 3-4 as opposed to a 4-3 and how line play is different in general?

Maybe that way we can figure out this Haynesworth mess better.

There really is no difference in how the gaps are defended between the two defenses b/c both the 3-4 and the 4-3 can be either "one-gap" or "two-gap" defenses...

In a "one-gap" scheme each defensive player in the front 7 is responsible for a gap on the line of scrimmage, and attacks that gap at the snap if it's a run play or they are blitzing...Whereas in a "two-gap" scheme each DL is responsible for the "two-gaps" on either side of the OL in front of him...leaving the LB's free to fill open gaps or flow to the ball depending on how the scheme is taught...

Chalk talk could be a youtube sensation. This is a fantastic idea.

I would like to know how the Redskins could ultilize a two TE set within the WCO. Would they have two TE's two wideouts at the sametime, or a blocking back with two TE's and one wideout? What combinations do you see them using to confuse opposing D's. I don't know much about what Kyle ran otherthan it was successful.

I think you will see all combination's b/c both Shanahan's are multiple in their offensive schemes meaning they use a lot of formations, motion and shifting...which formation we use will depend on game situation(down and distance, area on the field, etc), what type of match-up we're trying to exploit, the type of coverage we want to exploit based on our formation and personnel package...With an inventive offensive mind the possibilities are endless...

[Mr. Sinister]

I did'nt watch a lot of Texans games last year, so I guess the question I have is does Kyle Shanahans offense utilize the two TE sets more effectively, and is his offense more of a rythym offense like Zorns, or a timing based one like Al Saunders?

[darrelgreenie]

I think I'll go right for the jugular and ask you how you think our linebacker corps will play out.

My guess:

SILB: Fletcher/Blades/Perry Riley-Strongside/'Buck'

WILB: Rocky/Henson/Perry Riley-Weakside-'Mack'

ROLB: Orkapo/Carter/Jamron-Mainly pass rushing

LOLB:Carter/Wilson/Jarmon-Still mainly pass rushing but with a little more zone drops mixed in

Note on the 3-4 ILB: The 'mack' ILB is a protected run and hit LB that rarely has to fight through blocks

The other position is the 'buck' a shed-chase-and hit LB who will have to fight off more blocks and is often unprotected (depending on the scheme up front)

I've secretly been rooting for Jeremy Jarmon to earn himself a role, (especially with Andre Carter's previous experiences as an outside backer), but I'm not so sure he can be effective so soon after blowing out his ACL.

But you're right i think Jarmon/Carter will find a home in the 3rd and long 3-4 and 4-3 nickel packages at DE.

But, i think they'll have plenty of chances at 3-4 OLB in predominately pass rushing roles or in 3-4 Under fronts with their hands in the dirt, and at DEs in 4-3 situations.

Also, I'm VERY skeptical about this Lorenzo Alexander experiment. As I mentioned in my other thread, Brian Orakpo seems to be the only "sure bet".

Alexander?? I think he'll find a home as a rotational/situational set the edge run support 3-4 OLB; i could see him in a 3-4 Under front with his hand in the dirt

[darrelgreenie]

Getting a WR matched up against a LB is obviously something Shanahan & Co. will be trying to do, and the obvious way to is put a WR in the slot and run a crossing route against zone coverage, or man-to-man when the D is not in the nickel.

What are some other ways?

Some other ways that you could do it are through motion, and/or bunch, close/compressed formations...

I was gonna respond but you nailed it.

Nice post.

[darrelgreenie]

I did'nt watch a lot of Texans games last year, so I guess the question I have is does Kyle Shanahans offense utilize the two TE sets more effectively, and is his offense more of a rythym offense like Zorns, or a timing based one like Al Saunders?

I think Kyle's offense has elements of rhythm and timing as do all offenses.

I think its tough to pigeon hole into rhythm vs timing because they're related.

But, one aspect of Kyle's offense that i think is similiar to Saunders vs Zorn's offense is that the reads are more clearly defined.

Anyway here's my layman primer on Kyle's offense from the Titans game:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=7313837&postcount=17

o The Texans often use 'tight' formations with a Twin WR concept

e.g.- they often went singleback 3 WR 1 TE except the flanker WR was in tight to the TE and not side:

WR...............WR.......T-G-C-G-T-TE

......................................QB.......... ..WR

.......................................RB

They used a lot of double TEs formations and both TEs get targeted:

They often used this set: it shares the same Twin WR concept above and adds a double TE stack at the U and Y

-They used this set^^ to attack the seam w/ their 2nd TE Dresden

They use some common formations that we used like this 2 TE set (except they actually passed form it and often to their TEs)

The share classics like: I-Form pro and they use a lot more Off-set I which i haven't seen use often

o Kyle didn't give up on the running game

o They use a lot of motion and it works to get receivers favorable often 1-on-1 match-ups

o I was amazed at how often they found away to get Andre Johnson matched up 1-on-1 and how often they got him and Jacoby Jones WIDE OPEN

o They are effective with the RB screen game

o They run a lot of 5 and 7 step drop passing

They ran I-Form tight where they motioned the Z receiver into the backfield

..............T--G--C-G-T-TE.....................WR

..............WR.....Q

.......................FB

.......................RB

They did a 7 step playaction pass where Schaub had all day to wait for a wide open Andre Johnson beautiful play

o The routes: they scored on a Post route which was practically absent from the Zorn offence in general anyone remember they last Post route we even threw?: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...s-Bengals-2008,

they also attacked with the Seam route with the TEs

and the got Andre Johnson matched up 1-on-1 and threw slants

They ran a fan favorite TE screen from a 5 receivers no back set very similiar to this one against the Cards from shotgun @1:21 http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ins-highlights

They ran playaction to the TE on the goalline

Other notes:

o Early on the Texans called a draw on 3rd and 18 they didn't get it

-funny thing is the Titans also called a draw on 3rd and 18 and scored a TD

i thought it was a good reminder that fans always overeact i can just see the posts when Kyles calls a run on 3rd and long, lol

Andre Johnson has great focus and body control he was running a drag route and the ball was thrown about 2 yard behind him he had the presence of mind to reach back and tip the ball to himself and made a great catch

The main thing i took from this game is that Kyle is gonna make good use of this formation with 2 WR/2 TE personnel and with 3 WR 1 TE personnel

2 other good threads specific to TEs especially at the end where there are video links:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=315263

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=315528&page=8

[Xero21]

Kdawg, I was wondering if you could give some unofficial "scouting report" type evaluations of two players.

Clinton Portis and Carlos Rogers (two Redskins that have been the center of some big debates.)

What are your thoughts on each's game? For Portis, preferably an assessment on the player he is now as opposed to earlier on.

Oh, and I said Kdawg specifically, but if anyone else can give *objective* reports also, then I wouldn't mind hearing from others as well. Thanks everyone.

[Xero21]

http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=7313837&postcount=17

Quick takes from the Texans v Titans NFL replay:

o The Texans often use 'tight' formations with a Twin WR concept

e.g.- they often went singleback 3 WR 1 TE except the flanker WR was in tight to the TE and not side:

WR...............WR.......T-G-C-G-T-TE

......................................QB.......... ..WR

.......................................RB

t=315528&page=8[/url]

Is there any criteria for which WR would go where? Like would the tight WR preferably more of a possession type WR or a speed guy? Or does it not matter?

[Major Harris]

i think portis needs to prove he's an elite back. he definitely hasn't shown it for at least 3 years. imo, his vision lacks. he has trouble with changes of direction and pace, often stumbling. i can't remember the last time he beat a db one on one in the open field.

as far as rogers, i see a lot of es'ers that get fed up with him, but it mainly seems to stem from his lack of ability to catch the football. he drops a lot of interceptions, but you have to realize why that is...because he's in the proper position. i like rogers, he's a very solid cover corner. i just wish he could catch....but that's why he's a db.

[holmester]

As it stands now, Fletcher and McIntosh would probably play inside as they are better run stuffers than they are coverage guys, but are very capable of playing the zone. .

I would have to disagree with the statement that McIntosh is a better run stuffer then he is coverage guy. Thats basically the main reason he is the odd man out in the 3-4, because he's not stout against the run or able to shed blocks as effectively as you would want. Last year McIntosh made quite a few plays while in coverage (Int's, breakups, etc.) and I think that he has improved dramatically in that aspect of his game. I still think he would probaly have to start inside next to Fletcher unless Riley hits the ground running in training camp and opens some eyes.

[KDawg]

Sweet.

Getting a WR matched up against a LB is obviously something Shanahan & Co. will be trying to do, and the obvious way to is put a WR in the slot and run a crossing route against zone coverage, or man-to-man when the D is not in the nickel.

What are some other ways?

Some other ways that you could do it are through motion, and/or bunch, close/compressed formations...

jtyler hit it on the head. But to expand a bit, the bunch/close/compressed wide receiver splits allow receivers to run crossing routes across and behind each other. It's difficult to jam a guy who's begins his route off the heels of a receiver lined up in front of him.

Motion is one of the best ways to do it. Motion also helps screw with defensive alignments and sometimes makes players switch roles to play in spots that they aren't necessarily the most comfortable in playing. Motion is an extremely important tool in the football world.

There really is no difference in how the gaps are defended between the two defenses b/c both the 3-4 and the 4-3 can be either "one-gap" or "two-gap" defenses...

In a "one-gap" scheme each defensive player in the front 7 is responsible for a gap on the line of scrimmage, and attacks that gap at the snap if it's a run play or they are blitzing...Whereas in a "two-gap" scheme each DL is responsible for the "two-gaps" on either side of the OL in front of him...leaving the LB's free to fill open gaps or flow to the ball depending on how the scheme is taught...

Yup. The two-gap scheme usually calls for the defensive line to read and react to a gap. For example, in a 3-4 two gap scheme, the nose has both "A" gaps. The "A" gap is the spot between the center and the guard on both sides of the line of scrimmage. So he'd engage the center and make a read. Generally, if it's run, he'll look for the guard that's attacking him. That's a good indication of where the ball is going.

Usually, these guys will not key the running backs themselves. There's too much misdirection out there to read the fullback or the tailback most of the time. They key guards.

If a guard pulls, that alerts the backers and the man responsible for that gap that the all is probably headed in the direction of the pull. Granted, there are influence pulls (pulls to the opposite side of the run to get the backers and lineman to false pursue and open running lanes).

Some teams key fullbacks, but the DL will most likely key offensive linemen as it's difficult to see in the backfield when you're caught up in the trenches.

Kdawg, I was wondering if you could give some unofficial "scouting report" type evaluations of two players.

Clinton Portis and Carlos Rogers (two Redskins that have been the center of some big debates.)

i think portis needs to prove he's an elite back. he definitely hasn't shown it for at least 3 years. imo, his vision lacks. he has trouble with changes of direction and pace, often stumbling. i can't remember the last time he beat a db one on one in the open field.

I think a little different than Major here. I think Portis, with the reduced weight, should be much more nimble than he has been. He hasn't looked like he had much agility, but he was carrying a lot more weight than he's played with. This is why I think we'll see the old Clinton back. He's coming off an injury and had a lot of time off. He's also got a few guys breathing down his neck. I look for CP to be very solid this season.

as far as rogers, i see a lot of es'ers that get fed up with him, but it mainly seems to stem from his lack of ability to catch the football. he drops a lot of interceptions, but you have to realize why that is...because he's in the proper position. i like rogers, he's a very solid cover corner. i just wish he could catch....but that's why he's a db.

Rogers is a good cover corner, but he has the same problem as Landry, the double move kills him. But then again, I think a lot of these guys suffered from "WhatamIdoingherethiscoachingstaffisn'tdoingwhatworksforus-itis". Even if the game plan was solid, it was clear that the players weren't buying in to the system.

Rogers will be much better this season I think, as it looks like he's had an about face with his attitude. Still though, like Maj, I'm worried about his hands. Hopefully he's worked with a jugs machine a ton this offseason.

[KDawg]

I would have to disagree with the statement that McIntosh is a better run stuffer then he is coverage guy. Thats basically the main reason he is the odd man out in the 3-4, because he's not stout against the run or able to shed blocks as effectively as you would want. Last year McIntosh made quite a few plays while in coverage (Int's, breakups, etc.) and I think that he has improved dramatically in that aspect of his game. I still think he would probaly have to start inside next to Fletcher unless Riley hits the ground running in training camp and opens some eyes.

It's fine to disagree, but my point is that he fits inside much more than outside... Mostly because of our lack of players to play inside.

I think Rocky does a good job against the run, which is a bit different than your assessment. And like I said, he's a good coverage guy when he's playing a zone. The inside guys are going to be more zone guys than they are man.

All of that said, if we can find a guy who can play inside, Rocky playing outside could help us out quite a bit. Especially to the strong side.

But I don't know what Haslett is thinking as far as coverage schemes go and strong/weak backers... He very well have right/left backers and field/boundary backers just like he's doing with the safeties, so it's tough to tell you exactly who fits what and where. I'd say he'll stay with a weak and strong backer, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Rak coming off the strong edge sometimes, either.

[CrypticVillain]

KDawg,

I know that Haslett is going around saying that all the safeties are going to play every position; but shouldn't we try to find us an "original" ball hawk? I am not saying we need an Ed Reed or a Troy Polamalu, but this team has been lacking with the turnovers and I don't think pressure alone will help force turnovers when the secondary is lacking those ball hawk instincts. No disrespect to D.Hall........

[holmester]

All of that said, if we can find a guy who can play inside, Rocky playing outside could help us out quite a bit. Especially to the strong side.

But I don't know what Haslett is thinking as far as coverage schemes go, so it's tough to tell you exactly who fits what and where.

I think our success on defense this year will definitely hinge on Haslett's willingness to adapt to our personnel and be innovative. We have so many weapons on defense but there just isn't really any single defense or scheme that gives us an opportunity to put them all on the field or in their true position. Should definitely be interesting.

[KDawg]

KDawg,

I know that Haslett is going around saying that all the safeties are going to play every position; but shouldn't we try to find us an "original" ball hawk? I am not saying we need an Ed Reed or a Troy Polamalu, but this team has been lacking with the turnovers and I don't think pressure alone will help force turnovers when the secondary is lacking those ball hawk instincts. No disrespect to D.Hall........

It's always nice to have a ball hawk, but the schemes are, from what I understand, supposed to put these guys in position to make plays. Obviously that sounds great in theory, but it doesn't always happen that way. So yes, a ball hawk would be great. But we're not quite sure what we have in Kareem Moore, Chris Horton or Reed Doughty in this scheme, or even LaRon Landry. With the scheme being the way it is, it could make these guys look like much better ball hawks.

Rogers and Hall are both constantly in position to create turnovers. Issue with Rogers is he generally drops the ball when he's got a chance at it. Let's see what happens with the secondary... But man, when you said ball hawk it really made me think, "What if we still had #21 back there?".

RIP Sean Taylor. Still missed.

[CrypticVillain]

But man, when you said ball hawk it really made me think, "What if we still had #21 back there?".

RIP Sean Taylor. Still missed.

Thought about him too of course.

Got one more question about the defense.

How silly will Orakpo be this year? I see LBs like Suggs and Ware wreaking havoc, and I thought to myself, I wish we ran a 3-4 and had a linebacker like that. Will my dreams be opposing quarterback nightmares, or will my dream be my own nightmare? lol...

[Hubbs]

All of that said, if we can find a guy who can play inside, Rocky playing outside could help us out quite a bit. Especially to the strong side.

Rocky at strong OLB? He'd have to gain 20 pounds for that.

[SWFLSkins]

i think portis needs to prove he's an elite back. he definitely hasn't shown it for at least 3 years. imo, his vision lacks. he has trouble with changes of direction and pace, often stumbling. i can't remember the last time he beat a db one on one in the open field.

:

]

one bad year with an injury and some are re-writing history. How much did the coaching have to do with Clintons motivation?

-08, numbers...(what do you want in an elite back?)

1 Adrian Peterson MIN RB 363 22.7 1,760 4.8 110.0 10 67T 81 22.3 20 4 9

2 Michael Turner ATL RB 376 23.5 1,699 4.5 106.2 17 70 84 22.3 11 2 3

3 DeAngelo Williams CAR RB 273 17.1 1,515 5.5 94.7 18 69T 66 24.2 15 5 0

4 Clinton Portis WAS RB 342 21.4 1,487 4.3 92.9 9 31 75 21.9 13 0 3

5 Steven Jackson STL RB 253 21.1 1,042 4.1 86.8 7 56T 58 22.9 6 1 5

07 numbers,

12 Clinton Portis WAS RB 325 20.3 1,262 3.9 78.9 11 32 61 18.8 3 0 6

Notice his -07 numbers would have made him fifth in yardage behind himself in 08