The Chalk Talk Random Question Thread

[hatethe cowboys]

Love this thread. Really great idea. I have loved reading all the responses and have learned a fair amount. Thanks guys.

I was hoping that you could talk about the ZBS real quick. Why do our coaches think it is so superior? Also, I think the most common ES phrase in the last week has been "Williams fits the zone blocking scheme better than Okung". Could you guys explain why his speed makes him so much more capable in this scheme?

[darrelgreenie]

Is there any criteria for which WR would go where? Like would the tight WR preferably more of a possession type WR or a speed guy? Or does it not matter?

I can really say but in the play i was talking about and in general Andre Johnson is usually there X receiver meaning he normally up on the LOS opposite the TE.

The WR that is tight to the formation is usually of the LOS and in that game was usually Jacoby Jones or Anderson.

Short answer? I don't think it matters who type of the receiver because Jones is a speed guy and Anderson is a possension guy and both were in tight at times.

[gutlead74]

Love this thread. Really great idea. I have loved reading all the responses and have learned a fair amount. Thanks guys.

I was hoping that you could talk about the ZBS real quick. Why do our coaches think it is so superior? Also, I think the most common ES phrase in the last week has been "Williams fits the zone blocking scheme better than Okung". Could you guys explain why his speed makes him so much more capable in this scheme?

ZBS is a generic term. There are many versions/interpertations of it. What the shannahan's do is an agressive outside zone or stretch at the snap the OLine all "zones" to the play side all looking to cut off defenders from lateral pursuit.

When a defender is cut off it creates seams in the D allowing running lanes fir the back. The idea is to get flow by attacking the peremiter while looking for the cut back with the OL cutting off blockers or running them it creates casims in the D. A side benifit is it exhaust defenders making them run constantly, you can't just be a fat slug sitting in a gap cuz you will just make the gap larger you have to move with your fit.

Shannys scheme want the backside to get cut or pushed past for cutback hoping to catch safeties and LBs over flowing to create the huge plays.

Trent fits this scheme better because of his speed and quickness that would allow him to get to a backside shade or even nose allowing the G & C to reach 3s and LBs depending the D alignment. He also has the ability to get to the next level pushing backside flow past the cut back lanes. This is harder to type than it is to illustrate.

The idea being that we want the D to flow so we can cut them off instead of having to push them straight back where said slugs are more comfortable like in a man scheme or an inside zone. It allows for a smaller lineman to block amoretti powerful DL through technique instead of out muscleing him, when the RB and OL are in sync everything the DL tries to do is wrong it's a million plays out of one simple concept. Genius in it's simplicity.

[gutlead74]

PS: Lately the NFLn has been running the superbowl between Den and GB notice how gassed the GB D is in the fourth all that running is tiresome and all it takes is for one fit to fail and the RB hits his head on the goal post.

Also you control backside flow with boots, which is why it is so important for shannahan to have a mobile QB

[gutlead74]

Think of outside zone as running the sweep and the counter at the same time depending on the Ds reaction. If they don't flow it's a sweep if the flow to much you run counter all of this on the fly.

Man I love the stretch! Damned if you do damned if you don't.

[darrelgreenie]

Love this thread. Really great idea. I have loved reading all the responses and have learned a fair amount. Thanks guys.

I was hoping that you could talk about the ZBS real quick. Why do our coaches think it is so superior?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d80aec9cf/Billick-on-Denver-s-zone-blocking-scheme

Also, I think the most common ES phrase in the last week has been "Williams fits the zone blocking scheme better than Okung". Could you guys explain why his speed makes him so much more capable in this scheme?

One example of why Williams speed makes him a better fit for the ZBS is the ability to make second level blocks.

If you look in the clip the OL are often blocking LBs and some instances safeties.

[darrelgreenie]

Also you control backside flow with boots, which is why it is so important for shannahan to have a mobile QB

To piggy back on your excellent post with some more visuals Jamie Dukes does a good break down on backside flow/contain in relation to the bootleg using the uber mobile Mike Vick but the same principle applies for the ZBS running game:@ 2:12-2:50

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8166d02f/Rams-QB-issues

[jtyler42]

Is there any criteria for which WR would go where? Like would the tight WR preferably more of a possession type WR or a speed guy? Or does it not matter?

The Steelers do a lot of the Z-close stuff like the Texans did...You want a Hines Ward type of WR in that close position...Someone that can block, is tough, sure handed, and is elusive with the ball in their hands...For us in my mind that would be Devin Thomas in that close position, Kelly split out wide as the X, and Moss in the slot...

[hatethe cowboys]

Great stuff gutlead. That actually got me pretty excited about watching this season's offense.

[gutlead74]

OL is my thang! Thanks for ignoring my terriable grammar and just focusing on the football!

[gutlead74]

Great stuff gutlead. That actually got me pretty excited about watching this season's offense.

If you want a real treat DVR games and cover the backs from view and just watch the line play. It's fascinating to watch the strategy and brutality combine!

[Darth Tater]

Love this thread. Really great idea. I have loved reading all the responses and have learned a fair amount. Thanks guys.

I was hoping that you could talk about the ZBS real quick. Why do our coaches think it is so superior? Also, I think the most common ES phrase in the last week has been "Williams fits the zone blocking scheme better than Okung". Could you guys explain why his speed makes him so much more capable in this scheme?

Probably a bit of history might help. Zone blocking was originally brought to the run game so a line of hard working but less skilled guys could compete.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Rocky at strong OLB? He'd have to gain 20 pounds for that.

Not necessarily. The main problem with having Rocky at OLB isn't his weight so much as it is the fact that he likely wouldn't be particularly effective as an edge rusher. Without someone opposite Orakpo who is a serious threat as a blitzer the 3-4 loses much of its dynamism and more closely resembles the conventional 4-3.

PS: Lately the NFLn has been running the superbowl between Den and GB notice how gassed the GB D is in the fourth all that running is tiresome and all it takes is for one fit to fail and the RB hits his head on the goal post.

I've re-watched both of Shanahan's Super Bowl wins a couple of times since it became apparent he was coming here. Terrell Davis in the ZBS is truly a thing of beauty.

[Major Harris]

]

Notice his -07 numbers would have made him fifth in yardage behind himself in 08

i'll not get into a cp debate here. if you think he's elite, go with that.

[SWFLSkins]

i'll not get into a cp debate here. if you think he's elite, go with that.

:cool:It's cool man, I just don't know that I would completely write him off this year. If he rises to the challenge great, if not I think one of the other vets will. The only part of your post I disagreed with was the three year time frame. I also think it is relevant to this thread that CP or one of the others should be able to reclaim a productive role with the emphasis on running and a ZB line.

[KDawg]

Rocky at strong OLB? He'd have to gain 20 pounds for that.

Not necessarily. Remember, we're running a hybrid (what that means, to this point, I have no idea) and furthermore I see people getting entirely too caught up on size here. He'd be small for an inside backer too. In prototypical terms, he doesn't fit the 3-4 in the least. But he's one of our best linebackers and would need a place to play.

Remember Levon Kirkland? He was a 275-300 lb inside linebacker in the 3-4. London Fletcher is 245 and Rocky is 240 or so.

Your size doesn't mean anything if your play fits the position. Of course it'll be much tougher for him if he's smaller, but if he can play there, he can play there. But, I don't know how Rocky is responding to the new schemes and to be honest, neither do the coaches because he's not at the minicamps.

He's hurting himself with this little pouting party.

Keep in mind, it would be ideal if we could play Rocky on the inside (it's where he belongs) but we really don't have much to play strong side outside. I'll trust the coaches, though, and I'm hoping they're seeing something in these other backers that we didn't know about.

[KDawg]

Not necessarily. The main problem with having Rocky at OLB isn't his weight so much as it is the fact that he likely wouldn't be particularly effective as an edge rusher. Without someone opposite Orakpo who is a serious threat as a blitzer the 3-4 loses much of its dynamism and more closely resembles the conventional 4-3.

Which could be exactly what Jim Haslett wants to do, or maybe it's not. It's driving me nuts not knowing what this hybrid defense is supposed to do and how it does it

[KDawg]

Is there any criteria for which WR would go where? Like would the tight WR preferably more of a possession type WR or a speed guy? Or does it not matter?

A split end is typically a guy who lines up on the line of scrimmage split out wide and is typically referred to as the "X" receiver, as jtyler pointed out. A flanker is in the slot if they're to the SE side, or they are an off the line receiver to a TE side. A flanker is often referred to as a "Z". A TE is often referred to as a "Y".

Typically, a "X" receiver is in the mold of TO, Andre Johnson or Randy Moss. A "Z" is typically a Steve Smith, Santana Moss or Wes Welker.

The speedier, shiftier guys line up off the line typically because they have a harder time getting off the jam and/or their speed allows them to separate from the player covering them much easier.

The bigger bodied guys are bigger and can fight off a jam much easier and their bodies can take a bit more of a beating than a Z.

EDIT: Three posts in a row, score!

[heliKCx17]

Awesome idea! Definitely a bright spot in the post-draft/pre-camp doldrums.

I think I'll go right for the jugular and ask you how you think our linebacker corps will play out.

I've secretly been rooting for Jeremy Jarmon to earn himself a role, (especially with Andre Carter's previous experiences as an outside backer), but I'm not so sure he can be effective so soon after blowing out his ACL.

Also, I'm VERY skeptical about this Lorenzo Alexander experiment. As I mentioned in my other thread, Brian Orakpo seems to be the only "sure bet".

IMO, our linebackers are going to be fine. We have a plethora of big bodies up front, and to answeranother question, the D-line has no penetrating responsibility in a 3-4. They just eat up blockers so that the LBs can blow up the play. If the NT can take 2 and each DE swallows at least 1, we're talking about having 2 blockers free (at most w/a TE). SO, it is then the LBs job to fill down hill. Basically, there is no pass rush is the LBs sit back.

Having said that, I think the 3-4 can turn mediocre players into very productive players. I think Rak will be a stud, but on the weak side I think we could have 2 or 3 LBs with 50 tackles and 3-4 sacks. If you have good 3-4 Lineman, and if AH stays and plays hard we do, sometimes a warm body can make plays.

The outside linebackers basically just pin their ears back. In essence, we will be sending 5 every play, and usually the ILBs will be waiting to react to run/pass. So, IMO, it is much more important who you have inside than out, especially if you have a stud on one side.

This of the Cowboys, Chargers...who plays opposite Ware and Merriman...I won't tell you, but those guys are fairly productive and they are average players.

Anyway, that's my two cents on that subject.

[KDawg]

the D-line has no penetrating responsibility in a 3-4. They just eat up blockers so that the LBs can blow up the play. If the NT can take 2 and each DE swallows at least 1, we're talking about having 2 blockers free (at most w/a TE). SO, it is then the LBs job to fill down hill. Basically, there is no pass rush is the LBs sit back.

Any time a defensive lineman reads pass, they pass rush. They aren't going to sit on their side of the ball if it's pass. Also, the defensive line does have a gap responsibility. Perhaps you meant that with your response, but I can't tell with the way it was worded. If you did mean that, then ignore this next part.

The DL can be a one-gap or a two-gap scheme. It can be that way in the 4-3 or the 3-4. If it's a two gap scheme in the 3-4, it allows the linebackers to free flow as the nose is responsible for both A-Gaps and the Ends are responsible for B and C gaps. The outside backers are typically in charge of the D-Gaps. But all of this can change with a change in alignment, this would be a basic set up. The inside backers are pretty much free flow in that situation versus run. The DL ideally will draw a double team, as you said, but they need to draw that double team while being gap responsible. But again, football is a complicatedly simple game and sometimes those DL are told to pin their ears back and go.

Different frontage calls change the way things are done within a system.

In a 3-4 one-gap scheme, each backer checks a gap and each DL checks a gap prior to going to their responsbilities.

Yes, the linebackers are generally the guys who make the tackles in a 3-front scheme by the DL drawing doubles. But generally they still will be playing a gap (The DL, I mean).

Versus pass, the DL will pass rush. I'm not sure where you got the idea that there is no pass rush if the linebackers go into zones.

[gutlead74]

Which could be exactly what Jim Haslett wants to do, or maybe it's not. It's driving me nuts not knowing what this hybrid defense is supposed to do and how it does it

I think it means we are running a 34 but aren't ready to admit it so we throw in a pop culture term and call it a hybrid 34. IMO.

Maryland a couple years back said they were running a 34 hybrid which for them simply was having a LB play RDE everyone else appeared to be typical 43.

It may also mean we have 43 personnel and were jamming them into a 34.

[KDawg]

I think it means we are running a 34 but aren't ready to admit it so we throw in a pop culture term and call it a hybrid 34. IMO.

Maryland a couple years back said they were running a 34 hybrid which for them simply was having a LB play RDE everyone else appeared to be typical 43.

I may also mean we have 43 personelle and were jamming them into a 34.

This is exactly what I mean, though. We have NO idea what the term means. It's probably not going to be some ground breaking NFL defense, but I'm completely unsure of what kind of D we're even going to be running aside from the fact, that in name, it's the 3-4 defense. It makes it tough to really give much of an answer on alot of these defensive type questions

[heliKCx17]

Sweet.

Getting a WR matched up against a LB is obviously something Shanahan & Co. will be trying to do, and the obvious way to is put a WR in the slot and run a crossing route against zone coverage, or man-to-man when the D is not in the nickel.

What are some other ways?

This is an awesome question, and one thing I love trying to set up myself. A few different ways to look at this. Let's take a couple different sets:

2 TEs (Davis/Cooley), 2WR (Moss/Kelly):

a favorite play of mine is to run a drag route with the two fastest players on the field. Here, Davis and Moss would run drags, and this (as well as being an outlet that can gain you 5 yards after the catch if they drop back in zone,) basically clears out space for your route runners. So, if you can catch a LB or a S on the drag, you can quick hit that route for some extra yards. If they are well covered, you likely have a LB or safety matched up against your more physical receivers, and you can run a curl or slant in a more open area.

Here, the LB shadows Davis (orange), and CB sticks with Moss (blue) in the slot. the MLB (pink) has to decide between covering Cooley (Black) or Kelly (Red) Whomever he leaves uncovered could be wide open.

[Warpath11]

We have a plethora of big bodies up front, and to answeranother question, the D-line has no penetrating responsibility in a 3-4. They just eat up blockers so that the LBs can blow up the play.

Not sure if this is always true. For example, Jay Ratliff, is a penetrating one gap NT in the Dallas 3-4 scheme. I think Ratliff's goal on any play is to blow up his gap and either get to the QB (if a pass) or disrupt the run. He has a luxury of having great 2-gap DEs (Olshansky and Spears) and a big buck backer playing behind him covering the open gaps (Bradie James).

[heliKCx17]

Not sure if this is always true. For example, Jay Ratliff, is a penetrating one gap NT in the Dallas 3-4 scheme. I think Ratliff's goal on any play is to blow up his gap and either get to the QB (if a pass) or disrupt the run. He has a luxury of having great 2-gap DEs (Olshansky and Spears) and a big buck backer playing behind him covering the open gaps (Bradie James).

Very true. In Dallas' scheme, it's like they have two NTs on the outside and Ratliff is the DE playing interior. Very unusual, and most of the time Ratliff does just swallow up bodies, but they draw up some plays for him to penetrate. I would say 80% of the time (at least) he is the classic NT though. AH could be a very similar player at either Dline spot.