The Chalk Talk Random Question Thread

[Enter Apotheosis]

Which could be exactly what Jim Haslett wants to do, or maybe it's not. It's driving me nuts not knowing what this hybrid defense is supposed to do and how it does it

No kidding

Yea, I get that, that's what I meant, their gap is their responsibility, and the 3-4 that I have worked with, it is your starting point 99% of the time. You may react from there, but you start covering your defined gaps first.

It seems to me that the problem was that you strongly implied that the 3-4 is somehow different from the 4-3 in terms of gap control. Fundamentally, it isn't different at all. 2-gapping is perhaps more prevalent in most 3-4 schemes but it isn't necessary and isn't exclusive to the front.

[darrelgreenie]

Iguess no one is interested in offense. Crazy people. Probably because we as Redskins fans aren't familiar with what a real one is.

Very interested in talking about offense but its a pretty wide topic what specifically?

[jtyler42]

This post is for people that still do not understand the 3-4 defense and it's variations...Also I will try to explain the "Hybrid D" that we keep hearing about...

First the 3-4:

NT = nose tackle

LDE = left defensive end

RDE = right defensive end

JACK = ROLB/Weak outside backer

MIKE = Weak inside backer

TED = Strong inside backer

SAM = LOLB/Strong outside backer

Most of the offensive systems being used in the NFL have roots in one of three offensive systems: The Erhardt/Perkins, the Air Coryell, or the Walsh WCO...Well similarly on defense there are three systems or different types of true 3-4 defenses being run in the NFL today, and most come from one of these systems(there are hybrid D's, but I will get into that later)...

1. The Fairbanks-Bullough (we'll call it the Bullough).
   
2. The Bum Phillips (we'll call it the Phillips)
   
3. The Lebeau Zone-Blitz
   

The Bullough:

This system is what most people think of when they think of the 3-4. It is based on 2-gap play on the D-line. The system was used in colleges for many years, but it didn't come to the pros until 1974. Coach Fairbanks who coached at Oklahoma University(where the system was created in the 40's), and later became the Patriots HC in the 70's tweaked the D to make it ready to face NFL offenses...Coach Bullough (who was the defensive coordinator for NE in the 70's) refined the system further. It no longer played like the collegiate 3-4 of the 40's and 50's (in which the 3-4 was basically a 5-2, where every player was large, and the team played mostly zone) but became much more sophisticated.

The NT in this D is a 2 gap player who lines up in a 0(head up on the Center) or 1 technique(outside shade on the center)...The DE's are typically aligned in a 5 technique(head up on OT)...All three players are typically bigger than in the other two 3-4 systems, and it's not unusual for all three DL to be over 300lbs...The DL in this style of 3-4 often clog up the OL to allow the LBs to make the plays.

This type of 3-4 is typically played "straight up" but one tactic commonly used in the Bullough is to "scissor" the front, meaning they shift the DL one way, and the LB's another. Here's a rough diagram of a scissor:

This gives the OL little time to react to a new formation...Is the JACK LB going to "cheat forward" and play like a one gap DE, or is he going to zone? Note how the NT can now draw a double team from the RG and the RT, and the LDE (The right most "X") is still there to cause problems for the RT. The SAM LB is now in an ideal position to wrap around the line and take out the QB...The confusion doesn't stop there...The LBs can zone, man, or blitz...That's three things that each of the four LBs can do...That means a lot of variations...Now consider that each of those actions have further variations. Man - which man? Zone - zone where? Blitz - through which lane/gaps? Despite the fact that the Bullough can be confusing for both offenses to figure out and for the defensive players to learn, the system relies on a "bend but don't break" philosophy...The system will often give up short yards in the run, and blitzes(more than 4 rushers) are not common...The idea with this style of 3-4 is that the longer the offense has the ball, the longer it takes them to score, and the more plays the offense risks an interception, fumble, or a fourth down...Famous disciples of this style of 3-4 include Bill Parcells, and Bill Belichick..

Teams currently employing this style of 3-4: NE, MIA, CLE, KC, DEN

The Phillips:

This system is not what people think of when they think of the 3-4, and causes people a lot of confusion because the original(Bullough) 3-4 is primarily a 2-gap system and this one isn't...

The Phillips is named after "Bum Phillips", father of DAL head coach Wade Phillips... Bum learned under "Bear" Bryant at Texas A&M in the college ranks, and later went on to coach in DEN as both a head coach and defensive coordinator, as a defensive coordinator in SD, as a HC in HOU(that's the Oilers for you young folks), and also for NO as a HC.

Phillips was an innovator who turned the 3-4 upside down...His system is strictly one-gap...The DL penetrates, and it's primary objective is not to clog blocks but to get into the backfield and harass RB's and QB's on every play...The primary front for this style of 3-4 is an "Under" or "Over" front...

The The LB's in this D typically sacrifice some size for speed or agility b/c they are rarely taking on unblocked OL, and at least one or two of them will blitz on any given play...The reason for the near constant 1 or 2 LB blitzes is to account for the fact that the DL is also relatively undersized as compared to the Bullough system and also b/c they are only one-gapping...However, the scheme works out well...b/c of the shifted front(Under/Over) it can cause some interesting dilemmas for the offenses blocking schemes in the run game, and gives the edge rushers favorable match-ups in the passing game...This is a diagram of an Under front...If you look closely you'll see that you have 5 defenders on the LoS and each has outside leverage on the defender in front of them making it hard to be "hooked", "reach blocked", or "combo" blocked in the run game b/c of the close proximity of the next defender and b/c of the outside leverage...Against the pass b/c you have a 1-technique NT penetrating at the snap the RG will have to help him make this block leaving the LDE 1 on 1 with the RT and the SAM 1 on 1 with either the TE(if he stays in to block) or the RB if the TE goes out...On the weak-side you have the DE/DT in a 3-technique and the DE/ROLB in a loose 6-technique, once again they are in 1 on 1 match-ups on this side also...This is how Dallas and SD are consistently in the top of the league in sacks every yr...

As you can see The Phillips 3-4 is more aggressive than the Bullough 3-4. The school of thought for the Phillips 3-4 is to constantly use pressure/penetration on the offense to stop both the pass and run threats...The Phillips system is a threat to QBs, and attempts to get turnovers by cutting down the time that a QB has to make decisions, and hitting the QB...Famous disciples of this style of 3-4 include: Wade Phillips, Greg Manusky, Ted Cottrell...

Teams that currently employ this style of 3-4: DAL, SD, SF, AZ

The Lebeau Zone Blitz:

Attack, Attack, Attack!

The Zone Blitz is very nasty D to deal with...The Zone Blitz (also known as a fire zone) has been around for ages...Dick Lebeau took the play and turned it into a full system for Pittsburgh in the early 90's...What Lebeau is known for is two things...His players love him (they play hard for him), and he is an excellent theoretician who develops elaborate plays with many twists...

In terms of player types, the NT type and even the DE's in this style of defense can vary, b/c this style of 3-4 mixes in 2 gap and 1 gap principles and uses them equally...Whereas the other two styles of 3-4 typically only play one way, either 2 gap or 1 gap...

The idea is that the DL will often drop back into coverage, while several linebackers (and even defensive backs) will blitz...The offense usually has a hard time trying to decipher where the blitz is coming from and who is dropping, this is the one defense that prides itself on creating mass confusion in the QB and OL blocking schemes...Another aspect of this style of 3-4 is that the DL and LB's hit the OL hard and often and try to wear them down...This D is a very fun defense to watch. This defense employs both 1 and 2 gap principles to stop the run, and they stop the pass by targetting the QB with heavy Zone Blitz packages...

The Zone Blitz is very effective against screen passes, and wreaks havoc against check downs by QB's (because the zones can't be anticipated, nor can the rush)...Famous disciples of this style of 3-4 include: Dom Capers, Bill Davis

Teams that currently employ this style of 3-4: PITT, GB

That's the 3-4 and it's variations...Now you may notice that I left out some 3-4 teams like BAL, and the NYJ...I did that purposely b/c each of these teams run hybrid 3-4's meaning they move between 3 and 4 man fronts equally and b/c of this I don't think they can be pigeon holed as exclusively 3-4 teams...Actually most of, if not all of The Phillips 3-4 teams do this as well...

[Scribble]

That was an excellent post jt42, I learned a lot from that.

Looking froward to the hybrid post.

[KDawg]

jtyler,

I don't think you can explain our defense unless you have some insider knowledge. Quite frankly, none of us know what it's going to be. We can all speculate, but I'm trying not to do that.

However, as for the rest of your post, excellent stuff and right on the money. Very well done.

[jtyler42]

That was an excellent post jt42, I learned a lot from that.

Looking froward to the hybrid post.

jtyler,

I don't think you can explain our defense unless you have some insider knowledge. Quite frankly, none of us know what it's going to be. We can all speculate, but I'm trying not to do that.

However, as for the rest of your post, excellent stuff and right on the money. Very well done.

Thank you both, I just wanted to provide some perspective on the 3-4, describe the variations, and hopefully clear up some misconceptions about the defense as well...

KDawg my goal with the hybrid post will be to just explain what it actually means and the type of fronts and personnel used...I will not make any claims or speculate as to the Skins' utilization of this or a a 3-4...

[gutlead74]

JT out frigging standing post!!!! I learned a ton! I look forward to your further post. I knew there were differences I just didn't know exactly what they were. Again outstanding work and thank you.

[darrelgreenie]

First the 3-4:

NT = nose tackle

LDE = left defensive end

RDE = right defensive end

JACK = ROLB/Weak outside backer

MIKE = Weak inside backer

TED = Strong inside backer

SAM = LOLB/Strong outside backer

JT solid post as usual.

I wanted to pass along some info specifically about roles of 3-4 ILBs by making comparison to 4-3 positions.

The 2 ILBs in a 3-4 Stong Side Inside Linebacker and Weakside Inside Linebacker are also refered to as the 'Buck' SILB and the 'Mack' WILB.

The 'buck' is like a cross between 4-3 MIKE and SAM and of the 2 ILBs will have to take on more blocks and mix it up with OG/FB more often then the WILB 'mack' who is usually the unblocked playmaker in a 3-4 defense almost exactly like a 4-3 Weakside OLB.

Note: Fletcher has played 3-4 ILB in Buffalo

BTW-I'm nervous as heck and hope the Redskins and Rocky work something out b/c i think he could easily be as good in the 3-4 as he was in the 4-3.

Teams that currently employ this style of 3-4: PITT, GB, AZ

... I left out some 3-4 teams like BAL, and the NYJ...I did that purposely b/c each of these teams run hybrid 3-4's meaning they move between 3 and 4 man fronts a lot and I don't think they can be pigeon holed as classic 3-4 teams...I will do the hybrid part later!

I think the Cardinals fit into the hybrid group as well; they're often listed as a 3-4 but they're still very close to a 4-3 under, especially 2 years ago where they just stood up their RDE.

I wouldn't be surprised if our defense was like theirs.

I think people get thrown off by the 'hybrid' label.

Hybrid by definition means a mixture or 2 things in our case it will be a mix of the 4-3 Under and 3-4.

[KDawg]

I think the Cardinals fit into the hybrid group as well; they're often listed as a 3-4 but they're still very close to a 4-3 under, especially 2 years ago where they just stood up their RDE.

Absolutely. Their 3-4 was a 4-3 defense with a stand up end.

I've wondered if that's what our defense would primarily be... Damnit, I need to see the defense

Maybe I'll ask Cooley in June when I'm coaching at his clinic

[gutlead74]

Very interested in talking about offense but its a pretty wide topic what specifically?

I would like to discuss route combos as it's been made abuntantly clear there is no longer a true west coast Offense being run anymore. The shannys system seems like more of a coryellish deap game, with deap, middle, and short routes with tons of bootlegs.

So am I bonkers or is it a combo of the two or something unique in itself. I don't pay a lot of attention to routes just the end results and the protections of course.

[jtyler42]

JT solid post as usual.

Thanks! We've been talking about this for what like 2yrs now? lol

I used to be much more of an offensive guy, but ever since the end of the 08' season and the way Blache was utilizing JT55, and then us drafting Orakpo I've become very intrigued with defense/defenses, and have been studying them, buying books etc! I'm a football :geek:, I know lol!

I think the Cardinals fit into the hybrid group as well; they're often listed as a 3-4 but they're still very close to a 4-3 under, especially 2 years ago where they just stood up their RDE.

I wouldn't be surprised if our defense was like theirs.

I think people get thrown off by the 'hybrid' label.

Hybrid by definition means a mixture or 2 things in our case it will be a mix of the 4-3 Under and 3-4.

Dgreenie nice catch...You're right about the Cardinals D, I did mistakenly put them under the Lebeau style 3-4, I'm going to edit the post right now! :thumbsup:

Also I'm going to start my hybrid post out using the definition if it's cool with you...

[darrelgreenie]

Thanks! We've been talking about this for what like 2yrs now? lol..........studying them, buying books etc! I'm a football :geek:, I know lol!.........**Also I'm going to start my hybrid post out using the definition if it's cool with you...

I know right? After trying in vain to explain the 4-3 Under and how/why Orakpo could work out at SAM i almost gave up posting about X's and O's

I'm with on the nerd front, i almost cried when i lost my copy of Lou Tepper's book on Linebacking and i was an adult when it happened, great book btw.

**Please do, I'm looking forward to the hybrid post.

Side note: u think there's a chance Rocky skips mini-camp? I've been imaging the worst case scenario what if no Rocky? what would you do at ILB? Blades (strong) Fletch (weak)?

[Enter Apotheosis]

I would like to discuss route combos as it's been made abuntantly clear there is no longer a true west coast Offense being run anymore. The shannys system seems like more of a coryellish deap game, with deap, middle, and short routes with tons of bootlegs.

So am I bonkers or is it a combo of the two or something unique in itself. I don't pay a lot of attention to routes just the end results and the protections of course.

I've been tossing around the idea of creating a thread that takes an in-depth look at all facets of Shanahan's offense since January but haven't really had the time or resources to really jump into it. I'll try and dig something up that is more chalk-talk relevant but for now I'll just say this...

It's not always a good thing to look at teams or coaches strictly in terms of what big name system they're said to run or what coaching tree they fall into. Things can get awfully confusing, particularly when you get in the mindset of focusing in only on the bread and butter of what those schemes are supposed to do. Virtually all modern offenses are a blend of all of the great offensive schemes of the past, the only real difference is the ratio of the blend. In the long run, looking at what individual coaches do as well as where they've been and the evolution of the game itself over the long haul is probably going to be a more fruitful effort.

[jtyler42]

The "Hybrid Defense":

Oh that tricky hybrid defense, the subject of much conjecture, uncertainty, confusion, and flat out frustration amongst many a member of Extremeskins, and Redskins fans in general! You'll hear or see questions/statements like: "what is it?", "who else runs this type of D?", "how does it work?", etc, etc, etc...

Well I'm going to hopefully shed some light on what it's all about...I do want to note that I'm not going to speculate on how The Redskins will do it or even if they are going to do it, b/c I can't tell you that they will or how they will with any certainty but I will illustrate the concept(s) behind it...

First let's define "hybrid"...Hybrid is defined as an offspring produced by parents of different races, a crossbreed. A hybrid car is one that uses two sources of power. You're probably thinking "uhhh what?"...As my guy darrelgreenie(A great poster on Extremeskins) stated in layman's terms: "A hybrid is a mixture of 2 things"...

So how does that apply to defense? or...

- "what is it?":

A hybrid defense is one that uses both the 4-3 and 3-4 defensive packages -- and I don't mean a 3-4 defense that will use a four-man rush on third downs. A true hybrid defense is one that will use either package on any down -- and in any game. The DC's who are truly multiple and employ this hybrid scheme will look closely at an opponent and take advantage of the best match-up(s) they can get during a particular game. Hybrid coaches feel that they will make their opponent prepare for every possible look and then they can not only dictate what works best for them as a D, but also how the offense reacts to it...

-"who else runs this type of D?":

BAL, NYJ, CLE, SF, DAL, ARI, SD, NE, & MIA...As you can see this is a mixture of Bullough 3-4 teams(CLE, NE, MIA), Phillips 3-4 teams(SF, ARI, DAL, SD), and the full on hybrid teams in BAL, and NYJ that mix in both styles of 3-4...

-"how does it work?":

The way the hybrid 3-4/4-3 D works varies by the style of 3-4 a team runs...but the thing that is common between the Bullough style hybrid, and Phillips style hybrid is that Weak Outside LB(WOLB) is the key to the entire defense and what actually makes it a hybrid D...Here's a little background on the hybrid...

For a long time in the NFL when a player was labeled as a "tweener" it had the negative connotation of a player that didn't have a position or didn't fit a particular scheme...Now, the term "tweener" has an entirely different connotation. For many NFL teams, a defender whose physical skills don't allow him to fall into a specific positional category can actually be an ideal fit.

Tweener isn't even the label that such a player gets anymore. It has been replaced by the term "hybrid." This is what that means: He can rush the quarterback or play the run with a hand down, just as an end would; he can do the same standing up, just as an outside linebacker would; he can drop into coverage from the end or linebacker spots. And he is blessed with the combination of size, strength, and speed to do all of these things exceptionally well...A hybrid can play in a 3-4 or 4-3 scheme, and usually ends up working in multiple fronts. Besides versatility, he brings a crucial dimension to the chess match that goes on between OC's and DC's: His presence makes it extremely difficult for a quarterback to read the defense, b/c before the snap, the hybrid figuratively "hides." Regardless of whether he has a hand down or is standing, the offense has no clue as to what he will do after the snap because he will almost always show one thing and do another...There is no consistent pattern to where he will be, on one snap, he could be in a three-point stance, on the next, he could be standing on the outside across from the tight end preparing to cover him on a pass route, an on yet another snap, he could be standing away from the line, in the traditional area that a linebacker stands, ready to rush or drop into coverage. There is also always a chance he will end up in the middle of the defensive line, as part of an even-front look, looking to try and overpower the center.

All of these variables attributed to the hybrids alignment, give the O even more to do in trying to make sure the hybrid doesn't become a disruptive force. Most of it is guesswork that, depending on the talent of the hybrid, can occupy a large chunk of an offensive coordinator's time in preparing for an opponent...

An outside linebacker who specialized in rushing the passer and who would periodically put a hand on the ground used to be called an "elephant," which got its name from the first letters of end and linebacker. It was a role that caught on in the '80s and continued to be popular in the '90s because of the success that the 49ers had with Charles Haley and the then LA Rams, Steelers, and Panthers had with Kevin Greene. The biggest difference between an elephant and a hybrid is that a hybrid's first responsibility isn't always to rush the passer. Instead, he could drop into coverage just as easily as rush the QB, making it easier to disguise coverages.

Depending on the team, the hybrid goes by different nicknames. In New England, he is called a "Joker." In Arizona, he is called a "Predator.", and the Dolphins refer to the position as the "Jack," as in "jack of all trades."

Some hybrid's you may have heard of: Ware, Merriman, Suggs, Jason Taylor, Vrabel, Adalius Thomas, Lawrence Taylor, Calvin Pace, Bertrand Berry

now for the how:

Bullough hybrid D:

In the 1970’s, Hank Bullough, the DC for New England at the time....Devised a tactic where the defensive line would shift to the strong side of the formation and the linebackers would shift to the weak side of the formation. This innovative tactic was called the "scissor". Originally, the idea was to simply counter the offense on the strong side of the formation where teams usually ran the ball. However, it became the next evolution of the 3-4 defense and the birth of the hybrid defense...

So in effect, the "scissoring" of the front seven created a 4-3 defense on the field without switching personnel...

With an assist again from my guy darrelgreenie here's a live capture screen shot of what this would look like on the field...Except the Ravens tweaked the front by moving the LDE into a 5-technique and walking the SAM onto the line outside of the TE...As you can see the Ravens are in a 4-3 D in look but they have 3-4 personnel on the field, and have Suggs playing the hybrid WOLB/RDE position...

Phillips hybrid D:

The brilliance of The Phillips hybrid is that b/c the D is already lined up in an Under/Over front, all that needs to happen to switch between the 3-4 and the 4-3 is for the WOLB to either stand up in a 2 point stance or get down in a 3 point stance w/his hand in the dirt...IT'S THAT SIMPLE and is one of the benefits of The Phillips style 3-4...Their is minimal movement and shifting needed to move between the 3-4 and 4-3, and the fact that the Under/Over front provide good match-ups for the DL and LB's just by the alignment alone...

[KDawg]

It would make sense to play an Arizona Cardinals style hybrid defense, especially with Orakpo playing the "Predator" position. This is more like the 4-3 Over defense, with the Sam walked up onto the tight end. (The "Predator" is the name for the weakside backer/defensive end).

Again, just as you said and I've said before, I don't want to speculate, but I have been thinking for awhile now that this is the defense that we'll employ. It makes too much sense.

Orakpo is a hybrid style player... he has the size to be a traditional 3-4 outside backer, but he's got the strength to get the job done at a traditional defensive end. So what do you do, tough decision, right? Nope, make him a hybrid player and you have no decision to make.

London will continue to play his typical Mike role and we'll need a Buck/Jack/Whatever word you want to use. In the diagram above, it shows Ray Lewis aligned. London would do for us what Ray Lewis does for the Ravens. I think Rocky fits the other inside backer, but we don't know what's going to happen with him.

This is an outstanding defensive set, and our entire defense can change, like noted above from jt, with Orakpo putting his hand down or standing up. We can be back to what we played last year at the blink of an eye.

This is where an Andre Carter COULD fit back in. He could play the strong defensive end in our 4-3 look and at times, to keep teams off balance, I'm sure he'll man the Sam spot.

But again, this is just speculation and I really haven't wanted to say much about the D, but this is what I thought would be what we ran almost from the jump.

[mistertim]

Awesome posts guys! Very informative.

A question I have, now that I've read all of this, is do you think we have the personnel to incorporate zone blitzing into a "hybrid" look? Who do you think would be dropping back from the DL into a zone and who would be the best to send in? I really love watching zone blitz teams and would love to see it more here, but I'm just not sure if we have the right guys to do it on a regular basis.

[KDawg]

Awesome posts guys! Very informative.

A question I have, now that I've read all of this, is do you think we have the personnel to incorporate zone blitzing into a "hybrid" look? Who do you think would be dropping back from the DL into a zone and who would be the best to send in? I really love watching zone blitz teams and would love to see it more here, but I'm just not sure if we have the right guys to do it on a regular basis.

Absolutely I think we do. If Andre Carter lines up at DE every once in awhile, he's a perfect fit. It's always fun seeing a big nose dropping back into the hole to try to pick one off too. I think Phil may even be capable of dropping into a zone, and if it's a flat zone, I bet you even Haynesworth could do it (although he'd probably need oxygen after)

Don't forget, Rak when he's got his hand in the dirt could do it as well, and who knows the full spectrum of what we'd have planned for Lorenzo Alexander.

[HawaiianTime]

I didn't get a chance to go through all of the posts, so this may be a repeat. Kyle has been talking about zone blocking for the offensive line, so this will be a two part question. Please give us an explanation/rundown of what zone blocking is and how you think the Shanahans will employ the players in regards to that scheme. The second part being more hypothetical, is what is your opinion of zone blocking and if you didn't like it, what would you use and why?

[Enter Apotheosis]

I didn't get a chance to go through all of the posts, so this may be a repeat. Kyle has been talking about zone blocking for the offensive line, so this will be a two part question. Please give us an explanation/rundown of what zone blocking is and how you think the Shanahans will employ the players in regards to that scheme. The second part being more hypothetical, is what is your opinion of zone blocking and if you didn't like it, what would you use and why?

To put it in simple terms: In man/power blocking every blocker is assigned to a defensive player. Which player specifically is determined by a set of rules that can vary depending on the type of run and formation. In zone blocking every blocker is assigned to block an area of the field. Which players they engage depends on who is in their zone and a set of rules that is much more uniform from play to play than that of man blocking. In terms of personnel, the ZBS (Zone Blocking Scheme) strongly favors athleticism and intelligence to power. This is primarily a result of the fact that it relies heavily on flowing to the point of attack and makes good use of double teams, cut blocking, and leverage to keep defenders at bay. The downside to this, however, is that the typically smaller linemen sometimes have a harder time in pass protection which is why Shanahan prefers a mobile QB and relies on run fakes and bootlegs to buy time in the passing game.

I gave an example of how zone blocking might work on a play not too long ago in the other Chalk Talk thread on the first page if you want an idea of what happens when it's put to use. Here's the direct link to the post. I would also highly recommend this page if you want more in depth information. It has a lot of info that pertains specifically to Denver's running game under Mike Shanahan.

As far as the ZBS goes, I've been an admirer of Shanahan's implementation of it in Denver for years. It can make for some real exciting football when executed properly. The offensive line is typically very athletic, flows more noticeably after the snap, does a good job of getting up to the second level, and can open up some big holes for the running back. If you're looking to get excited about it... well, you can enjoy these videos:

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The Super Bowl win against the Packers is particularly impressive because the Broncos had the smallest offensive line in the league and absolutely manhandled one of the largest defensive lines in the league that featured Santana Dotson (278 lbs), Reggie White (291 lbs), Gabe Wilkins (305 lbs), and Gilbert Brown (340+ lbs and probably closer to 360/370 at the time).

[darrelgreenie]

I didn't get a chance to go through all of the posts, so this may be a repeat. Kyle has been talking about zone blocking for the offensive line, so this will be a two part question. Please give us an explanation/rundown of what zone blocking is and how you think the Shanahans will employ the players in regards to that scheme.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d80aec9cf/Billick-on-Denver-s-zone-blocking-scheme

The second part being more hypothetical, is what is your opinion of zone blocking and if you didn't like it, what would you use and why?

I love it.

Really.

It gives the offensive line an identity which is important to the overall team identity.

When properly executed its been proven effective almost regardless of the running back.

Imo, the ZBS is easier to execute without top level OL talent then a man scheme. (But like any scheme its better with better talent)

[darrelgreenie]

I would like to discuss route combos

Specific route combos are gonna be very difficult to assess in relation to the total scheme without knowing the actual plays.

But, the basic staples of the WCO apply including the 3 step game, 5 step game and 7 step and action passes.

I mentioned some of my observations from the Titans vs Texans game but here is mix from all the Texans game i've seen (6-7 games i downloaded):

o 5 step drop based passing attack with alot of intermediate routes lots of deep slants, deep ins, deep crossing routes, seam routes, comebacks and some out routes

Billick Break down Titans

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d812d6e79/WK-2-Playbook-Texans-offense-explodes

Kyle S 2009 vs Titans I

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d812c6ab6/WK-2-Matt-Schaub-Highlights

Mike S 2008 vs Saints

http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d80afe587/WK-3-Jay-Cutler-highlights

o they use far less 3 step drop and the associated quick game: hitches, quick shallow slants, shallow crossers

o they don't make heavy use of the backs in the passing game as some other WCO but that could be because of personelle not every RB is a Craig or a Westbrook

as it's been made abuntantly clear there is no longer a true west coast Offense being run anymore.

I'm not sure what people mean when they say a 'true' WCO.

I think the philosophies and concepts and the terminology live.

I think there is a common misconception that a WCO is a short passing offense but this is far from the truth.

Bill Walsh describes the WCO as a complete passing game:

Finding the Winning Edge, Bill Walsh

A fully dimensional passing game should include, in varying degrees, several types of passes. Not only does having several forms of passing in the passing scheme give a team a variety of offensive weapons, it also enhances the ability of the team to handle each contingency condition and situationsd it occurs.

These are the elements of a fully dimensional passing attack as per Bill Walsh:

o 3-step drop but Walsh warns thusly: "....the coaching staff should guard against being "seduced" by the relative ease of completing 3-step drop passes"

"A key factor to consider when using the 3 step drop pass is how much yardage is gained relative to the number of times the play is run. An offensive scheme using 3-step drop passes which doesn't produce relatively significant yardage, despite numerous opportunities, may be serving the defense more than the offense."

o 5-step drop

o 7-step drop

o Play pass

o Action pass (movement sprint outs, waggles, bootlegs)

o Screen pass

The shannys system seems like more of a coryellish deap game, with deap, middle, and short routes with tons of bootlegs.

So am I bonkers or is it a combo of the two or something unique in itself. I don't pay a lot of attention to routes just the end results and the protections of course.

I would describe Mike and Kyle's Shanahan's as a match-up driven WCO; usually set-up by motion and play-action. It relies more on the 5 and 7 step drop passing game then a 3 step drop passing game and is therefore less reliant on the YAC.

I guess in the above respect it could be viewed as similiar to an Air Coryell offense.

Edit: Today from redskins.com

http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/In_Installing_Offense__Kyle_Shanahan_Isn_t_Holding_Back_117174.jsp

Shanahan said: “I believe in a system [that allows] you to attack a defense every single way. Now we have things that I thing Donovan will be better at than others. You want to play to his strengths, but as soon as you do that, defenses will stop it and you have to do some other things.

“So nothing changes. You might lean toward doing things more often that you would with a different quarterback under center, but when it comes down to it, if you want to be a good offense, you have to be able to do it all.”

-Music to my ears

[Darth Tater]

Saying we don't run a 'true' WCO is a bit like saying Shaughnessy stopped running the T formation when he moved Hirsch out of the backfield. If you say we don't run a 'true' WCO you would also have to say that Walsh only ran the WCO for his first couple of years at San Fran or Coryell didn't run the 'true' Coryell system at San Diego

[HawaiianTime]

Hey guys, thanks for the explanation, breakdown, and links. I'm sure we'll have more questions as the season rolls along. I can see this thread growing quite large as well.

HTTR

[gutlead74]

The small little nagging thing that is bothering me is Zone Blocking Scheme being used to discribe outside zone, please don't forget that inside zone is a zone blocking scheme with a different technique. An outside zone is a laterally blocked scheme while it's true that you are trying to gain ground the focus is on lateral blocking "reach" blocking.

With an inside zone the scheme is verticle and is more of your traditional NFL OL type blocking. The idea is to double all of the down defenders using half man technique, two halves making a whole. While your doubling the down man both sets of eyes are on the backer, backer disappears you take over backer comes you block backer this accounts for stunts and allows for maximum movement of down players and still accounts for the backers. This scheme was developed to allow a 1 back offence to still be a power running team. You may already know the pioneers of this scheme, you most likely uttered it's original name 40 Gut.

I noticed Denver employing it with great success vs GB most notably on the game winning drive. However the base of what shanahan wants to do is outside zone, it is a very aggressive form of it at that.

We did some of it ourselves last year (outside zone) but were very conservative with our technique with it, slow playing it if you will.

I wonder how different ours will be due to Gibbs not being here.

[gutlead74]

Examples of inside zone teams just about any spread team. Especially ones running option with qb reading the backside end. WVU, FU, Utah, Mich, etc......