zoony Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I don't think that's correct. Al Qaeda has offered to stop attacking Americans if the US withdraws all forces from Muslim lands, withdraws all embassies from Muslim lands, stops supporting leaders of Arab, secular states, stops supporting Israel, etc. While I agree with your overall point- just want to point out that OBL has been VERY clear about US troops in the "land of Mecca". (He refuses to call it Saudi Arabia for how much he hates the House of Saud) He didn't care too much about US Forces in other Muslim lands. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 So...Israel took care of an Israeli problem. What does that have to do with them being our friend or not? :whoknows: Nothing, that was my point. I don't like it when people go on and on about Israel killing Hamas and Hezbollah as how that's somehow evidence of them being an ally. They are problems which only came about because of Israel. Let's not pretend Israel is helping us out when they take care of Hamas or Hezbollah. So yeah, what has Israel done for us again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 the page says that when Israel realized its mistake the torpedo boats offered help which was denied by the Americans. It also says Israel paid several million dollars in reparations to the sailors, families, and American gov This doesn't change anything. They knew it was an American ship. They wanted the American ship out of the area. They asked, they were denied, and then they bombed it. "realizing their mistake" and paying reparations was really an effort (and obviously a succesfuly one) to cover up the real crime. It's was like them saying: 'we made our point, the ship is done, let's try to hide the fact that we attacked our own "ally." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 This doesn't change anything. They knew it was an American ship. They wanted the American ship out of the area. They asked, they were denied, and then they bombed it. you seem fairly certain. Are you saying there is no credible evidence to the contrary whatsoever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 you seem fairly certain. Are you saying there is no credible evidence to the contrary whatsoever? No, I don't have perfect knowledge. But one version of the story seems to have a lot more support than the other, enough to be "conclusive." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 you seem fairly certain. Are you saying there is no credible evidence to the contrary whatsoever? I'm saying their is no credible evidence to the contrary... Look who is saying theirs a cover up.. the secretary of state The chairman of the foreign intelligence board General Legal Counsel of the Department of Defense the under secretary of state Two former US Ambassadors The deputy head of the American mission in Cairo Assistant Secretary of Defense Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy Deputy Director, NSA Many of those guys were strong Israel supporters.. like Clark Cliffard who first lobbied Truman to recognize Israel in 1948. Likewise if you look at the physical evidence their is no chance the Israeli pilots and attack boats didn't know they were firing on an American Ship... We've got the freaking American ambassidor to Lebonon saying he saw the transcripts from an Israeli Pilot stating he reported the ship was American, and was told to fire anyway... What more do you want? The only question are, how far up in Israel's government did the authorizaiton come from. That's the only question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 No, I don't have perfect knowledge. But one version of the story seems to have a lot more support than the other, enough to be "conclusive." So, what did everyone have to gain by covering it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 the page says that when Israel realized its mistake the torpedo boats offered help which was denied by the Americans. It also says Israel paid several million dollars in reparations to the sailors, families, and American gov Israel "realized" it's mistake after several hours of attacking the USS. Liberty and several minutes after the lightly armed USS Liberty was able to contact the sixth fleet(*) and several seconds after the USS Aircraft Carriers Saratoga and America dispatched planes to destroy the attacking Israeli forces! (*) Israeli forces initially targeted the Liberty's antena crippling it's ability to contact the US Sixth Fleet stationed in the Med. After several hours the radio man was able to jurry rig an internal antenni and reach the nearby armed American war ships. Upon receipt of that message the aircraft carriers USS Saratoga and USS America each launched aircraft to come to the aid of USS Liberty. The reported attacking aircraft were declared hostile and the rescue aircraft were authorized to destroy them upon arrival http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm That radio message sent in the clear was what prompted the Israeli's within moments to break off their attack and approach the United States embassy with the revolation of their "mistake". Key to this contact was to get the Sixth Fleet to recall it's planes, which the Sixth Fleet was ordered to do. As for declining Israeli's offer for assistance... Durring the attack, the Captain of the USS Liberty gave orders to prepare to abandon ship. The life rafts and crew members attempting to abandon ship were machine gunned by Israeli forces. Leaving the captain to believe Israel meant to leave no witnesses alive to the attack. When the Israeli Helecoptors tried to land armed parties to "assist" the liberty, the Captain gave orders to prepare to repell boarders. When one of the torpedo boats which moments before was machine gunning the USS Liberty called out over loud speaker if the USS Liberty needed assistace.. The wounded Captain of the Liberty ordered the response, "F**k You". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 So, what did everyone have to gain by covering it up? It's really not even a question of whether their was a cover up on the Israeli's or American parts. America classified the entire incident and threatenned anybody who spoke of it with prosecution... Silencing everybody... Israel to this day has never allowed the United States to interview anybody who participated in the attack or was involved in the chain of command in the attack..... The cover up is well documented. What did America have to gain? (1) We had nearly 600,000 men in Vietnam in 1968. Largely justified by a Vietnamese attack upon one of our naval vessels.... Jonson wasn't looking for another war or a PR problem. Especially from a country who we were about to put on the federal nipple. (2) Israel was flying Mirage jets in 1968 war. In the 1972 war they would be flying American jets. America was looking for a cold war partner in the middle east as a hedge against soviet agression from Egypt and Syria... Israel attacking and murdering our sailors was pretty freaking inconvient and not part of the big picture from a US interests stand point. What did Israel have to gain... Billions in foreign aid? Military aid, and logistical support? Why would Israel do it? After the 1956 Sinai war with Egypt, General Eisenhower forced Israel out of the Sinai, along with France and the UK.. It could be as simple as Israel knowing we were weak, knowing we couldn't/wouldn't respond; and deciding to send a message. Then after the fact someone pointed out that such an action would jeprodize potentially billions of aid and weapons transfers... America was not Israel's primary benifactor in the 50's and early 60's. We took on that role in the late 60's and early 70's. Just around the time the USS Liberty was attacked. One of the major land grabs from the 68 war was Israel retaking the Sinai which Eisenhower made them return to Egypt in the late 50's. Egypt was Israel's greatest exisistencial threat in the 50's, 60's and early 70's. The land buffer between Israel and Egyt was key to Israeli security. Israel attacked in 1968 in order to secure her Red Sea Port. The Sania was key to that goal. Attacking, sinking and killing the Liberty crew could have just been Israel's way to stick their finger in the eye of a meddling super power who was not in a position to do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 The life rafts and crew members attempting to abandon ship were machine gunned by Israeli forces. Disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 Disgusting. Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order "prepare to abandon ship."[24] This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched. http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm Israel doesn't really give quarter. They're pretty consistant on that point. I don't think they get much quarter typically either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I'm not saying Israel made a 100% accident but we've made some pretty big "oops" in our time as well...look up Iran Air Flight 655 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 I'm not saying Israel made a 100% accident but we've made some pretty big "oops" in our time as well...look up Iran Air Flight 655 We shot down the Iranian flight from a ship about 50 miles down range. The Israeli's pulled multiple torpedo boats fifty feet from our ship and straffed it in full sight of the American flag and American markings. We've even got the transcript of one of the Israeli pilots telling his base that it's an American ship and being told to fire away. Hardly similar events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 We shot down the Iranian flight from a ship about 50 miles down range.The Israeli's pulled torpedo boats fifty feet from our ship and straffed it in full sight of the American flag and American markings. We've even got the transcript of one of the Israeli pilots telling his base that it's an American ship and being told to fire away. Hardly similar events. We shot down an CIVILIAN AIRLINER thinking it was an enemy F-14. I can tell you that is a pretty big OOPS. That's all I'm saying. When something is happening, things get confusing very quickly. Again, I'm not saying Israel didn't royally screw the pooch, I just want people to remember that we are far from perfect also. Edit: And our oops was far more recent in a time when much more advanced technology should have prevented it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 We shot down an CIVILIAN AIRLINER thinking it was an enemy F-14. I can tell you that is a pretty big OOPS. That's all I'm saying. When something is happening, things get confusing very quickly. Again, I'm not saying Israel didn't royally screw the pooch, I just want people to remember that we are far from perfect also.Edit: And our oops was far more recent in a time when much more advanced technology should have prevented it. The problem I have with your defense of the attackers here is it's devoid of any facts from the Israeli side. It's thus blanket defense in support of any attack on American forces at any time... Whoops, we're not perfect either!... If it was an accident it was a damned convient accident for the Israeli's... Attacking for hours without hearing the distress calls, or identificaitons calls from the Liberty, but they heard loud and clear the order for the Saratogo to destroy the attacking Israeli's first time out... Clear over in Televiv. Let's hear what career military officials have said... Including the Captain of the Liberty.. The ship was clearly identified, not only by its unique configuration but by a very large U.S. flag that was flown at the time. The weather was calm and the visibility was excellent. During this unprovoked attack 34 U.S. Navy men were killed and 171 wounded. Nevertheless, to this day the American public does not know why the attack took place and who was involved overall. In my opinion, the United States government and the Israeli government must share responsibility for this cover-up. I cannot accept the claim by the Israelis that this was a case of mistaken identity. I have flown for years in both peace and war on surveillance flights over the ocean, and my opinion is supported by a full career of locating and identifying ships at sea. Based on the way this tragedy was handled both in the United States and in Israel, one must conclude that there is much information that has not been made available to the public. The U.S. Fleet, positioned nearby, received a distress call from the USS Liberty, and one carrier dispatched a squadron to go to the defense of the disabled ship. Before the aircraft reached the Liberty, they received orders from Washington directing their return to their ship. Who issued those orders? So far, no one knows. In the United States all information available to the U.S. government indicating those who participated in controlling this operation from Washington, together with the exact text of orders transmitted to the Mediterranean Fleet, has never been made public. Thomas H. Moorer, Admiral, US Navy (Ret.), Forword to Assault on the Liberty "Retired Navy legal counsel Capt. Ward Boston says he and the court's president, the late Rear Adm. Isaac "Ike" Kidd, always believed Israeli forces knowingly attacked the Liberty. 'I feel the Israelis knew what they were doing. They knew they were shooting at a U.S. Navy ship,' said Boston, who lives in Coronado, Calif. 'That's the bottom line. I don't care how they tried to get out of it.'" After more than two hours of unremitting assault, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. This same torpedo boat crew had been circling the ship, machine-gunning anyone who stuck his head above decks, as well as the lifeboats the crew had put over the side. What had changed? The Israeli government knew that US aircraft carriers had just launched aircraft to come to Liberty's aid and the attack was quickly called off. The Israeli government called the US Embassy and said that they had made a "mistake." A torpedo boat officer asked in English over a bullhorn: "Do you need any help?" The wounded commander of the Liberty, Captain William McGonagle, instructed the quartermaster to respond emphatically: "F*** You." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 The problem I have with your defense of Israel is it's devoid of any facts from the Israeli side. It's a blanket defense defending any attack on American forces at any time... Whoops, we're not perfect either...Well let's hear what career military officials have said... [/i] [/i] [/i] Ummm....I wasn't defending Israel...More a statement about throwing stones when you live in a glass house.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 Ummm....I wasn't defending Israel...More a statement about throwing stones when you live in a glass house.... Who's throwing stones... Happenned nearly 50 years ago. It's all ancient history. Doesn't say or mean anything about modern US/Israeli relations. To me it's all about recounting what happenned... Hell, if you wanted to carry a grudge about this who would you really blame more. Israel who did the attacking and helped cover it up, or the Johnson Administration who not only covered it up, but then set out to reward Israel after having totally crawfished on any meaningful investigation ... I'd be more pissed at Johnson myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Who's throwing stones... Happenned nearly 50 years ago. It's all ancient history. Doesn't say or mean anything about modern US/Israeli relations. Yes, Israel screwed up 50 years ago....we screwed up 20 years ago...yet people are trying to use the Israel incident as basis for an argument about weither or not they are a good allie, etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Yes, Israel screwed up 50 years ago....we screwed up 20 years ago...yet people are trying to use the Israel incident as basis for an argument about weither or not they are a good allie, etc.... That is one incident in a long list of incidents that people are using to show that Israel has been a less than ideal ally that certainly isn't the only thing that Israel has done that makes one question the nature of our alliance with Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 Yes, Israel screwed up 50 years ago....we screwed up 20 years ago...yet people are trying to use the Israel incident as basis for an argument about weither or not they are a good allie, etc.... Screwed up is generous... More like Israel blatantly and calculatedly attacked us 50 years ago and got away with it. I think early US, Israeli history has such many troubling incidents. Like Israel, bombing the king david hotel in 1946 killing 91 innocent people injuring 46. Like when Israel murdered the UN special envoy in 1948. Like when Israel fire bombed the American Embassy in Egypt in 1954 trying to blame Egypt and draw us into a war on their side. And of coarse the USS Liberty in 1968 I think more recent US, Israeli history also had some troubling incidents from our perspective. Suffice it to say, Israel has been excellent allies, as long as our interests mirror their own, or we have something they desire. Both of which have often been the case. Israel is a small country faced with large enemies, who doesn't typically act out of senitmenatlity. I think both countries have meddled with each others internal politics, both countries threaten each other(politically), both countries have interests which sometime diverge from our joint interests.... Both countries have expressed concerns with each other arms sales, for instance. Israel in the passed has objected to our arms sales to Egypt, Saudi, and Pakistan.. We've objected to Israel's arm sales to China. Being an Amercian citizen and equating Israeli patriotism with American Patriotism is bad and misguided logic. We shouldn't have our blinders on when dealing with Israel, as we have often had. They certainly don't have any such blinders when dealing with us. Now having said that they have been and remain an important US Alley. If we walked away from them tommorrow the situation would be much worse, both for Israel and ourselves. Our largest interest in the middle east should be for security. Security for Israel, and her neighbors, and we shouldn't be bashful in asserting so to either.. If Israel was more secure, they would be much better allies and our interests would even more often mirror each other. Security can not be achieved for Israel without addressing the concerns of the region, nor can it be achieved through a military soluiton. If the last 70 years has shown us anything, it's shown us that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englands Redskin Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 You're right. "One true ally" was too strong a phrase. I should have said "our best ally." Any country will stab another in the back for an advantage, but I think Israel would do it less than other countries. Israel has been a crucial ally in the Middle East for us. They aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got, and that means a lot in a world where you really can't trust anybody. I don't know much about Israel selling US military secrets to China. I'll look more into that.To summarize my thoughts: if we were in a massive war, and we could only choose one country to go in with, I'd pick Israel over Britain. They have an edge to them, a certain passionate hatred for all things Islamic terrorists. I just don't see Britain as being quite as dedicated. Nice to know the almost 500 UK soldiers who have died supporting the US in Iraq & Afghanistan since 2002 didn't die in vain eh? After the US, no other country has supported you more, despite massive public disapproval of our involvement. But hey, you choose those brave israeli soldiers who use state of the art weaponry (funded by your tax $$$$) to blow the crap out of Palestinians armed with outdated and often handmade weapons. Oh, and have you ever read this? http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=4 4 pages of interesting and thought provoking stuff, but the most interesting is the final paragraph, when an Israeli caught celebrating as he videoed the 9-11 attacks says: "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." Now, to document the events of that day would surely require some kind of foreknowledge? And if your number 1 ally knew but didn't tell you, would you still think they were No 1? You dismiss all the other stuff Israel has done against the US on the basis that it is history, is 9/11 recent enough for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Yes, Israel screwed up 50 years ago....we screwed up 20 years ago...yet people are trying to use the Israel incident as basis for an argument about weither or not they are a good allie, etc.... Did you look up Susannah a.k.a The Lavon Affair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Nice to know the almost 500 UK soldiers who have died supporting the US in Iraq & Afghanistan since 2002 didn't die in vain eh? After the US, no other country has supported you more, despite massive public disapproval of our involvement. But hey, you choose those brave israeli soldiers who use state of the art weaponry (funded by your tax $$$$) to blow the crap out of Palestinians armed with outdated and often handmade weapons.Oh, and have you ever read this? http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=4 4 pages of interesting and thought provoking stuff, but the most interesting is the final paragraph, when an Israeli caught celebrating as he videoed the 9-11 attacks says: Now, to document the events of that day would surely require some kind of foreknowledge? And if your number 1 ally knew but didn't tell you, would you still think they were No 1? You dismiss all the other stuff Israel has done against the US on the basis that it is history, is 9/11 recent enough for you? The fact that the English have served as our Allies in this has not gone unnoticed. I think that When Tony Blair was in power, that allience was probably stronger, still, the UK is still supporting efforts in the Middle East. I think that it's a bit heavy handed to say that you are supporting America. I would think that you are supporting yourselves. Terrorists do not only target Americans. The history between our two countries is long and of a mutual nature. Before we take everybody to the wood shed here, I think it's correct to point out that we have been partners with the UK for a great many years and we are not looked upon very favorably in the UK. What was said about the former President? Unfortunately, that street runs both ways. I thank the British for standing with us in the Middle East. Not for standing by us. I don't see it that way. That would be like me saying we stood up for England in WWII. We stood with England in WWII. There is a differnce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 To summarize my thoughts: if we were in a massive war, and we could only choose one country to go in with, I'd pick Israel over Britain. They have an edge to them, a certain passionate hatred for all things Islamic terrorists. Like WWI, WWII, Korea, Gulf War I, Gulf War II, Afghanistan? Name any war Israel has helped the United States in and hasn't recieved billions in aid guarantees in exchange? How can you keep a straight face and compare them to Great Britain? Israel's concerns are myopically focused on regional. This gives us a lot in common and a little not in common. Great Britain is more like the United States. They consider the world in their interests. I just don't see Britain as being quite as dedicated. Then you aren't really paying attention. Britain is among America's closest and most trusted allies. We have 4 of them. Israel isn't among them. We don't share our best technology with Israel, cause they sell that stuff to China. Israeli spies like Johnathan Pollard have done terrific damage to our security, and Israel has totally stonewalled any attempt to mitigate that damage by comming clean with what they stole or what they did with what they stole. Hell they got caught stealing top secret documents during the Bush administration. We have a good relationship with Israel. One based on mutual interests. We have something entirely different with the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kunia5 Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Yep, Israel is the "Al Sharpton" of the middle east. They excuse any behavior by waving the race card. In the case of Israel, any critic is an "anti-semite." End of discussion. I've said it before and I'll say again. Israel doesn't give a damn what their "allies" have to say. They will do what they want whenever they want to. Anyone that takes issue will be labeled as being anti-Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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