TG:British threat to Israel over Dubai Hamas assassination

[jpyaks3]

I'mADinnerJacket has stated Israel will be consumed by pillars of fire, numerous times... a not so subtle refference to nuclear weapons which his country is widely reported to be building.

And Israel has a tendency to take folks seriously who profess mass murder against her..

Can I get a source for that?

[JMS]

There is no conclusive evidence.

Yeah that's pretty much what happens when you classify the event and threaten to prosecute folks who speak of it for two decades. Or when the country of Israel declines to allow American investigators talk to folks on their side who purpetrated the attack.

What we do have to go on is the words of our government officials at the time.

" . . . an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life."

Then Secretary of State Dean Rusk in a 10 June 1967 diplomatic note to the Israeli Ambassador.

"But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or soem trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

Counsel to the President]

"I do not know to this day at what level the attack on the Liberty was authorized and I think it is unlikely that the full truth will ever come out. Having been for so long a staunch supporter of Israel, I was particularly troubled by this incident; I could not bring myself to believe that such an action could have been authorized by Levi Eshkol. Yet somewhere inside the Israeli government, somewhere along the chain of command, something had gone terribly wrong--and then had been covered up. I hever felt the Israelis made adequate restitution or explanation for their actions . . ."

Clark M. Clifford, then-Presidential Advisor and Chairman of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, Counsel to the President

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

"I found it hard to believe that it was, in fact, an honest mistake on the part of the Israeli air force units. I still find it impossible to believe that it was. I suspect that in the heat of battle they figured that the presence of this American ship was inimical to their interests, and that somebody without authorization attacked it."

Paul C. Warnke, then-General Legal Counsel of the Department of Defense

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

"American leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of its citizens. . . . The Liberty's presence and function were well known to Israel's leaders. ...Israel's leaders concluded that nothing they might do would offend the Americans to the point of reprisal. If American leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of American citizens, it seemed clear that their American friends would let them get away with almost anything.

George Ball, under secretary of state at the time writing in The Passionate Attachment: America's Involvement with Israel, pages 57-58.

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

"It's an American ship!" the pilot of an Israeli Mirage fighter-bomber radioed Tel Aviv as he sighted the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967. Israeli headquarters ordered the pilot to attack the American ship.

former US Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter describing transcripts of communications he saw, reported in syndicated column "Remembering the Liberty" by Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, November 6, 1991.

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

"I don't think that there's any doubt that it was deliberate.... [it is] one of the great cover-ups of our military history."

David G. Nes, the deputy head of the American mission in Cairo at the time

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

"No one in the White House believed that the attack was an accident."

George Christian, Press Secretary to President Lyndon Johnson in letter to James Ennes, 1978.

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

"The Israelis told us 24 hours before that ...if we didn't move it, they would sink it. Unfortunately, the ship was not moved, and by the time the message arrived the ship was taking on water."

John Stenbit, Assistant Secretary of Defense for C3Im in an address to the AFEI/NDAI Conference for Net Centric Operations, Wednesday, April 16, 2003

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

". . . the commander of the Sixth Fleet was informed by the Washington Intelligence Apparatus that it had evidence that the Liberty was going to be attacked and to provide protection for it. That message was never really acted upon, and the ship was dead in the water when it was hit. So the end result was no accident."

-- Raymond Tate, Deputy Assistant SecNav and Deputy Director, NSA, Worldwide C3I and Telecommunications (1980, pp. 25-47)

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

Tell you what, go over to the NSA building in Laural Maryland. They have a museum there which contains the large American Flag which the Liberty was flying, rittled with bullet holes. Look at how large that flag was, and know that the crew of the liberty could see the faces of the Israeli's in the boats and planes attacking them, that's how close they got to the American ship. Then ask yourself how anybody could have possible missed that American flag... A flag which was shot down numerous times, only to be replaced by the crew after each attack, lasting over hours. A flag rittled with bullet holes on display at the NSA headquarters.

[Prosperity]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

carrying out what a lot of people consider as an act of war against your own ally, AND get away with it

balls of steel indeed...errr something like that

There is no conclusive evidence.

lol

[zoony]

When I first heard about this, the first thing I thought was the Mossad did it...those guys are bad ass

Trained by Americans.

This Israel Mossad/Special Forces worship is always amusing.

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[Skins24]

Saying they are an ally is another. What has the nation of Israel ever done FOR us?

Keep the middle east in check? :whoknows:

Do people not read the thread before they post? There were about 10 people saying look up the USS Liberty incident...

Are you serious?

You guys are using that - a 40 year old incident, which is by no means conclusive (in terms of them purposely trying to piss us off by attacking their only ally at the time) - to show Isreal isn't an ally?

Israel may not be our "best" ally, but to say they aren't one is ridiculous.

Also, pretty sure the U.S. spies on it's own people, so I'm guessing we also spy on allies. Comes with the territory

[Chicken Fried]

we have troops dead and wounded in Afghanistan and Iraq with special service people working behind the lines alongside similar US units?

I'm very well aware of that, and I appreciate their service to the utmost. Y'all have been a good ally, but I'm saying that with the threats the west as a whole faces, there could have been a stronger commitment on the part of Europe. Britain obviously played a bigger role than any other European nation. I just think that Israel has a better understanding (even better than America; I don't think our country remembers 9/11 like it should) of the threat the west is facing. I believe they are more dedicated and more aggressive in attacking this threat. They have essentially mobilized their entire country against this threat. I'm not saying that Britain hasn't helped us in many ways. I'm saying that Israel is doing more, while not always in conjunction with America, in the war on terror. It's nothing against the people of Britain. They just haven't been involved in this mess like Israel has. Israel has a better picture of where we're coming from as we attempt to destroy radicalism in the Middle East. Israel faces suicide bombers and rocket attacks on their home front at all times.

I think Britain IS willing to go the extra mile to help America. I just don't think they are willing to go all out yet. I hope they eventually do go full force because we could use them. This war on terror, in my opinion, will likely never end. We aren't fighting a country. We're fighting a radical ideology that can spread to any nation in the world.

[zoony]

I've said it before and I'll say again. Israel doesn't give a damn what their "allies" have to say. They will do what they want whenever they want to. Anyone that takes issue will be labeled as being anti-Israel.

Not sure I agree, and not sure I disagree

The amount of aid and propping up that that tiny little state gets from the West is sickening when you consider how thankless they often act.

Israel would cease to exist in about 10 days without Western Support. You'd think they'd act a little more humble.

They don't. There's not a ****ier nation on the planet. As much a supporter of Israel as I am- it is seriously annoying.

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[Chicken Fried]

carrying out what a lot of people consider as an act of war against your own ally, AND get away with it

balls of steel indeed...errr something like that

lol

Did you read the page? Some people say Israel did it on purpose. Others say, and the evidence looks pretty strong for this side, that it was an accident. It looked like an accident to me from the evidence in the article. There would be no reason to bomb our ship anyway.

And like a previous poster said, you're using a 42 year old incident with no conclusive evidence to prove that Israel is not an ally? WOW.

[jpyaks3]

Keep the middle east in check? :whoknows:

Do people not read the thread before they post? There were about 10 people saying look up the USS Liberty incident...

Are you serious?

You guys are using that - a 40 year old incident, which is by no means conclusive (in terms of them purposely trying to piss us off by attacking their only ally at the time) - to show Isreal isn't an ally?

Israel may not be our "best" ally, but to say they aren't one is ridiculous.

Also, pretty sure the U.S. spies on it's own people, so I'm guessing we also spy on allies. Comes with the territory

The USS Liberty is by no means the only "incident" with Israel they have sold secrets and weapons to the Chinese, ignored our calls for a halt to settlements, and quite a few other things that an ally probably shouldn't be doing. They are an ally but they are far from an ideal ally.

[Prosperity]

Did you read the page? Some people say Israel did it on purpose. Others say, and the evidence looks pretty strong for this side, that it was an accident. It looked like an accident to me from the evidence in the article. There would be no reason to bomb our ship anyway.

And like a previous poster said, you're using a 42 year old incident with no conclusive evidence to prove that Israel is not an ally? WOW.

They did, and it's conclusive, Israel does not help the US

/thread

[jpyaks3]

Not sure I agree, and not sure I disagree

The amount of aid and propping up that that tiny little state gets from the West is sickening when you consider how thankless they often act.

Israel would cease to exist in about 10 days without Western Support. You'd think they'd act a little more humble.

They don't. There's not a ****ier nation on the planet. As much a supporter of Israel as I am- it is seriously annoying.

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I think you are short selling Israel's self defense capabilities, they would be able to survive without western support if we just stopped giving them aid, however if we started to act on the dozens and dozens of U.N. resolutions like we would against any other state then that would be a different story. But yeah it is kind of disturbing that we send 3 billion dollars in military and civil aid every year to a state that doesn't need it nearly as much as quite a few other ones.

[zoony]

The USS Liberty is by no means the only "incident" with Israel they have sold secrets and weapons to the Chinese, ignored

Do you own any Toshiba products?

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[zoony]

I think you are short selling Israel's self defense capabilities, they would be able to survive without western support if we just stopped giving them aid, however if we started to act on the dozens and dozens of U.N. resolutions like we would against any other state then that would be a different story. But yeah it is kind of disturbing that we send 3 billion dollars in military and civil aid every year to a state that doesn't need it nearly as much as quite a few other ones.

I think Israel's military is perhaps the most over-rated thing in the history of the world. Seriously.

They do have nukes of course, so that changes things.

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[Chicken Fried]

Trained by Americans.

This Israel Mossad/Special Forces worship is always amusing.

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Israel does not singlehandedly rely on America for everything. They develop a great deal of their own technology. America and Israel share their developments. Israel also has many of their own tactics. They have been trained by Americans, but they have adapted that training to some of their own methods. That being said, our Special Forces are better.

[21cents]

We had a thread here in the Tailgate where 90% of posters were onboard with the U.S. killing Taliban and terrorists. Seems to me that this is the Israelis pursuing a similar possibility.

It is a shame that they gave the Brits a black eye in the follow through.

Iam pretty sure england backs up hamas and views them as a political party as well as europe. Only countries to view them terrorist is usa and israel. So you can see why britan is upset.

[jpyaks3]

Do you own any Toshiba products?

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Would you be referring to them selling milling machines to the Soviets? Both the United States and Japan sanctioned the company and prosecuted the senior executives. There have been quite a few incidents of Israel selling weapons or secrets to the Chinese over a fairly long time period.

[Chicken Fried]

They did, and it's conclusive, Israel does not help the US

/thread

Very nice evidence. It's true because you say so. Of course. I think fighting every day of the week on your home front against radicals who happen to be enemies of the US and who suicide bomb and rocket your cities qualifies as helping the US.

[jpyaks3]

I think Israel's military is perhaps the most over-rated thing in the history of the world. Seriously.

They do have nukes of course, so that changes things.

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They wouldn't be able to do anything more then they are doing now protecting the border and killing Palestinians but they would be able to maintain the status quo without our support and the nuclear option pretty does change the playing field quite a bit.

[21cents]

Now why exactly do you believe this? I mean stuff like the USS Liberty incident, Israeli spies selling US secrets to the Chinese, that doesn't seem like things our one true ally would do.

The truth is Israel looks out for Israel they don't give a flying **** about the United States or US interests. Now no one can really fault them for that because you shouldn't expect a state to look out for someone else's interests first but to think that Israel really cares what the United States wants is kind of naive, we wield some influence over Israel because we give them 3+ billion dollars a year in military and non-military aid but Israel looks out for Israel first and foremost.

You know what sucks? all the current wars and terrorist acts on our u.s was rooted back to Israel. Only reason middleeast hates us is because we back Israel.

[zoony]

Would you be referring to them selling milling machines to the Soviets? Both the United States and Japan sanctioned the company and prosecuted the senior executives. There have been quite a few incidents of Israel selling weapons or secrets to the Chinese over a fairly long time period.

Yah, Toshiba suffered heavily. I'm betting you had to google it before you replied- having never heard about it. (not a shot at you- just that 99.999% of Americans have absolutely no idea it ever happened)

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[Prosperity]

Very nice evidence. It's true because you say so. Of course

the evidence has already been provided in this thread and other places, and I judge it to be conclusive. Your rebuttals don't change that.

. I think fighting every day of the week on your home front against radicals who happen to be enemies of the US and who suicide bomb and rocket your cities qualifies as helping the US.

Not really. Israel assassinated some guy from Hamas. BFD There wouldn't even be a Hamas without Israel... so yeah wow lucky us to have a friend like Israel.

[jpyaks3]

Very nice evidence. It's true because you say so. Of course. I think fighting every day of the week on your home front against radicals who happen to be enemies of the US and who suicide bomb and rocket your cities qualifies as helping the US.

Who are you talking about here? Hamas? They have never committed a terrorist act against the United States.

[jpyaks3]

Yah, Toshiba suffered heavily. I'm betting you had to google it before you replied- having never heard about it. (not a shot at you- just that 99.999% of Americans have absolutely no idea it ever happened)

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Ha ha definitely had to google it.

[Skins24]

Only reason middleeast hates us is because we back Israel.

Link?

[zoony]

the evidence has already been provided in this thread and other places, and I judge it to be conclusive. Your rebuttals don't change that.

the page says that when Israel realized its mistake the torpedo boats offered help which was denied by the Americans. It also says Israel paid several million dollars in reparations to the sailors, families, and American gov

The event was seriously bad. Nobody is denying that. But I think it is a bit overblown.

Anyone remember the United States blowing up the Chinese embassy with their warplanes a few years back?

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