Let's Debate: Saints vs Redskins

[Looking For Number Four]

Saints

Shockey (569, 3TD)/Thomas (356 1 TD) TE

Bushrod LT

Nicks LG

Goodwin C

Evans RG

Stinchcomb RT

Colston (70/1074/9), Moore (14/153/2), Henderson (51/804)2), Meachem(45/722/9)WR

Bush (390/5 - 47/335/3), Thomas (793/6- 39/302/2), Bell (654/5 - 4/12/0)RB

Eckel FB

Brees (4388/34/11) QB

McCray (nobody, won Super Bowl) LE

-Charles Grant (44 tackles, 5.5 sacks)

S. Ellis, A. Hargrove (7 sacks, 75 tackles) LDT

Ayodele, Presslet (45 tackles, 1.5 sacks) RDT

W. smith, J. charleston (59 tackles, 13 sacks + 1 INT (all W. Smith) RE

Fujita, Evans (87 tackles, 1 sack) LOLB

Vilma, Mitchell (137 tackles- 110 tackles, 3 INTs, 2 Sacks Vilma) MLB

Shanle (69 tackles) Casillas (20 tackles) Dunbar (20 tackles) ROLB

Greer (44 tackles, 2 INT) Jenkins (55 tackles, 1 INT) LCB

Sharper (71 tackles, .5 sack, 9 INT) Young (8 tackles, 1 INT) FS

R. Harper (102 tackles, 1.5 sack) Prioleau (29 tackles) SS

Porter (57 tackles, 4 INT) Gay (37 tackles, 1 sack, 1 INT) RCB

Hartley (clutch kicker, period)

Redskins

Davis (48/509/6) Cooley (29/332/2) TE

Jones/Samuels LT

Dockery LG

Rabach C

Williams/Rinehart/Thomas RG

Heyer RT

Moss (70/902/3), ARE (50/530/0), Thomas (25/325/3), Kelly (25/347/0) WR

Portis (494/1 - 9/57/1) Betts (210/2 - 17/179/0) Cartwright (228/0 - 27/242/1) RB

Selllers FB

Daniels/Wynn/Jarmon/Jackson (45 tackles, 1 sack) LDE

Griffin (34 tackles, 2 sacks) Golston (34 tackles, 2 sacks) LDT

Haynesworth (37 tackles, 4 sacks) Monty (4 tackles) RDT

Carter (62 tackles, 11 sacks) L. Alexander (23 tackles, 2 sacks) RDE

Orakpo (50 tackles, 11 sacks) C. Wilson (20 tackles, 1 sack)

Fletcher (142 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 INT) Blades (40 tackles)

McIntosh (94, 2 INT)

Rogers (39 tackles, 0 INT) Smoot (28 tackles, 0 INT) LCB

Landry (90 tackles, 1 sacks, 1 INT) Horton (37 tackles, 0 INT) FS

Doughty (91 tackles, 2 sack, 1 INT) SS

Hall (58 tackles, 4 INT) Tryon (27 tackles, 1 INT, 1 sack) RCB

Gano = ? K

Advantage Redskins

Fletcher over Vilma

Orakpo over Fajita

McIntosh over Shanle

Haynesworth over Ellis

Davis/Cooley vs. Shockey/Thomas

Push

Ayodele, Presslet vs. Griffin, Golston

W. Smith vs. Carter/Alexander

Porter/Gay vs. Hall/Tryon

R. Harper vs. Doughty

Advantage Saints

Daniels/Wynn/Jarmon/Jackson vs. Grant

Rogers/Smoot vs. Jenkins/Greer

Hartley vs. Gano

Landry/Horton vs. Sharper

Brees vs. Campbell

Thomas/Bell/Bush vs. Portis/Betts/Cartwright

Colston/Henderson/Meachem/Moore vs. Moss/Thomas/Kelly/ARE

Daniels/Wynn/Jarmon/Jackson vs. Grant/McCray

Offensive Line

Alright guys, this is where it stands, IMO...

Landry MUST find a way to snag more INTs

Line must find a way, does not need to be Jets though

Jarmon has to step up or Orakpo needs to fill position

WRs are close, IMO, with better QB play

QB play must score TDs, as well as more yards...but TDs are the anemic part

Could benefit GREATLY from throwing more to the RB, Portis is the most skilled runner of all those mentioned...Betts is not far

Carter, McIntosh, and Haynesworth a clear aces in the hole

Rogers/Smoot MUST find INTs, they can hold their own but CANNOT create turnovers, Hall is the opposite...barley holding his own but is creating turnovers

Our TEs decimate theirs, even with poor QB play...

Bottom line:

With better line, does not need to be amazing, along with exceptional QB that brings the WRs to the right level and makes the TE position off the charts the offensive is there.

Defense has a ton of strength, but is still not getting turnovers, WE NEED TURNOVERS!!!!

Plan:

Rogers/Smoot/Hall are fine, adding someone with better history of picks would help. Landry and Doughty both racking up tackles and nobody getting picks from the Saftey position will NOT work. Haynesworth, Carter, and Orakpo on the line is absolutely sick and Super Bowl caliber. Monty, Golston, and Griffin are good enough. Fletcher is unreal and god amongst men. McIntosh does far more than hold his own and is above average.

Campbell and the line are holding the offensive back. Both the WRs and TEs have shown the ability to equal and possible surpass that of the Saints; however, poor line and QB play has limited their production, espeically in rackings up TDs. We MUST find a way to score TDs form the QB/WR positions, it MUST happen. Another way to help the passing game that is not happening is utilizing the RB. Portis is as good if not better than any of their RBs and most likely is amongst the top 5 in the NFL.

If the line can get to their level and a QB is put in place that can take advantage of the enormous talent sitting at TE and potential at WR then the offense will start clicking and reach the Saints level. The defense is all but there, however, without finding ways to create the turnovers...it is not going to happen.

The line is far, but does not have to get to elite, it can be done. TE and LB are advantages and the D-line is as well, more or less. CB and FS/SS are areas of concern, but all in all are probably better than most, just needs INTs. WR is probably equal but is not at the level of theirs because of QB play, good quickly jump to elite. RB is an advantage for us, except we do not have a Reggie Bush/Pierre Thomas that can exploit the passing aspect of the position. We are VERY close.

Answer:

Sign Reggie Bush or draft Joe McKnight, it will go light years in helping the QB play get to the next level and add impact game breakers in the return game.

Sign and draft offensive lineman, this might be a two year process, sucks. Good thing, we do not need to get to the level of the Jets of Vikings.

Draft Bradford/Clausen, we must have someone that is elite, not just good.

Trade Rodgers and/or Landry is they cannot create turnovers and get INTs. We MUST get INTs. Doughty is a GREAT SS (Roman Harper equal) and Hall is getting INTs. One way or another, with or without them, we must get INTs. Perhaps trade Rogers and sign Bodden.

If we draft Bradford, Brown, McKnight, and some more line help, then, sign Amano some more line help, then, add some more line via draft and free agency next season I think we are there. Fletcher could be too old at that point, however. McIntosh would need to step up and fill some ENORMOUS shoes. If we could make one more splash in free agency next season it would probably make up the difference and get the fourth trophy.

That is my answer, could be wrong, but I have studied this over and over and over and this, in my mind, really does get it done. Our defense is better than either defense in the Super Bowl (minus INTs, i'm done ) and is likely to get better. Our offense has a TON of talent (Portis, Cooley, Davis, Moss, Thomas, Kelly). If Landry can take the next step and become Ed Reed then we would have Carter/Haynesworth/Orakpo- Level 1 Fletcher/McIntosh- Level 2 Hall/Rogers/Smoot/Landry/Doughty- Level 3...that is basically elite. We need to find a Brees/Favre/Rodgers/Warner/Manning/Brees and rebuild the line. There is more than enough talent around the offense to make that person excel GREATLY. The defense is elite, in my eyes and more or less statisically.

Draft and sign lineman, draft Bradford/Clausen, find INTs, and the rest will do what it does...be freaking awesome.

[Rypien1191]

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

[Captain Wiggles]

4-12 = This is crazy, your are crazy, we need a TON!!!! of talented players.

[Mr. Sinister]

My head just started to hurt.

[zCommander]

Are you in a race to start the most threads by a newcomer?

Are you going to be starting 31 other threads for the other 31 teams vs. skins?

[BigMike21]

Well at least you can't say that #4 doesn't put time and thought into these....

[bu7ch]

Why are we debating anything with the saints?

[Springfield]

Good luck with that. We are no where close to the Saints. I don't care how close we were to defeating them in the regular season or how much of the game the refs gave to the Saints. No where close.

[Looking For Number Four]

Are you in a race to start the most threads by a newcomer?

Are you going to be starting 31 other threads for the other 31 teams vs. skins?

You are one of several people to mention this, therefore, I suppose I will go on a hiatus for a while. There are just not very many threads that I care to spend time on that are started outside of my own. Not that there are none, please do not go there. I have over 300 posts in a month, I post plenty in others threads. But there is only so much I can buy into regarding jerseys and hall of fame, etc. etc. etc.

But yeah, I will not post another thread for a long time, per request of numerous others besides yourself. I apologize for the inconvenience and I suppose conceited actions.

That said, thanks to all of you that have taken the time to put input into my threads, thank you thank you thank you. The questions I pose in my threads are ones I think about A LOT and try my very best to dissect and answer myself, but rarely does that get me where I hope to be. With all of your input I feel most of my tug-of-war thoughts pertaining to "our team" get me to a closure point.

Hail! :dallasuck

[Looking For Number Four]

Good luck with that. We are no where close to the Saints. I don't care how close we were to defeating them in the regular season or how much of the game the refs gave to the Saints. No where close.

I have noted in great detail why I think you are wrong. If you disagree with some of my analysis I would love to hear which and why. Meanwhile, I humbly disagree. Minus INTs, o-line, and QB play I think we are as good if not better. But I am probably horrible biased as I'm a long time Skins-a-holic.

[CommanderDOOM]

well, we can at least say we can play with the champs. What held us back?? Coaching, QB 'closer' play, and Landry.

[McD5]

I have believed for years that the entire organization had to be blown up.

I am happy to see that much of it finally has.

Going forward, here is the question that should be asked of each person:

"This is going to take a few years. Will this person be here to contribute and build with us two or three years from now?"

If yes, keep them.

If no, send them out immediately.

This goes for both players and coaches. Which is why it was so important for people like Bugel to leave, and not try to hang on for another season.

As far as players? I would ship out 80% of them.

[Springfield]

I have noted in great detail why I think you are wrong. If you disagree with some of my analysis I would love to hear which and why. Meanwhile, I humbly disagree. Minus INTs, o-line, and QB play I think we are as good if not better. But I am probably horrible biased as I'm a long time Skins-a-holic.

My bias is deep as well. I won't argue your point though, I'm too tired. Sleep trumps arguments. Good luck.

[zCommander]

You are one of several people to mention this, therefore, I suppose I will go on a hiatus for a while. There are just not very many threads that I care to spend time on that are started outside of my own. Not that there are none, please do not go there. I have over 300 posts in a month, I post plenty in others threads. But there is only so much I can buy into regarding jerseys and hall of fame, etc. etc. etc.

But yeah, I will not post another thread for a long time, per request of numerous others besides yourself. I apologize for the inconvenience and I suppose conceited actions.

That said, thanks to all of you that have taken the time to put input into my threads, thank you thank you thank you. The questions I pose in my threads are ones I think about A LOT and try my very best to dissect and answer myself, but rarely does that get me where I hope to be. With all of your input I feel most of my tug-of-war thoughts pertaining to "our team" get me to a closure point.

Hail! :dallasuck

Look don't take it the wrong way but at this point the only comparison should be Redskins vs. Redskins. What we need to do to get to where two teams end up in the last game of the season. Period.

We are better than the Saints. We beat them last year and we only lost to them this year only in OT because we don't have a clutch type of a QB.

Peyton was giving "props" to JC and last night JC was giving "props" to Peyton.

[McD5]

We are better than the Saints. We beat them last year and we only lost to them this year only in OT because we don't have a clutch type of a QB.

Peyton was giving "props" to JC and last night JC was giving "props" to Peyton.

We aren't even close to the Saints.

If we played them ten times in a row, they would win 8 or 9 of them.

We can't score.

As far as Peyton saying anything.....have you ever heard him say, "that quarterback sucks?"

Seriously, what would you expect him to say about any other qb in the league?

[CommanderDOOM]

We aren't even close to the Saints.

loco. Coaching, game-breaking RB/WR, OL, and QB is all they have on us.......had

[McD5]

loco. Coaching, game-breaking RB/WR, OL, and QB is all they have on us.......had

You forgot to include a non-meddling owner, an atmosphere of accountability, a defense that causes turnovers, and better corners.

Basically, they are better in about 90% of categories.

[CommanderDOOM]

We will be amazed how much coaching helps that 90%. What I'm saying is personel wise, we are closer than u think and the whole league will see.

[Newera]

Brennan or Brees. He just needs to play.

[jservs7]

Wow. Threads like this make me embarrassed to be a Skins fan. (Or anytime some fan from a team I support tries to compare the team I like to one that is light years better)

We need everything, plus luck, destiny and even a few bribes along the way.

As much as our coaching moves seem to be a move in the right direction (and I sure hope it will help break our champion-less woes), we still suck as of this moment. We haven't proven jack-sh*t in years, so please people; I know you love the Redskins (as do I), but be realistic: WE ARE NOT THE SAINTS!!! WE CAN'T EVEN WEAR THEIR GAME USED JOCKSTRAPS.

P.S. I am also tired of people hating on teams that win with ex-players of ours. When you have an organization that is basically like a cancer, you can't hate people for succeeding in a system that works.

[aussieskin]

maybe all we needed is a coach that has some idea idea of what is required of the players he is coaching, all i think we needed is a coach that can get the players to play the way ehe wants them too. another year and we will see who we get to say goodbye too, time to be patient, we have waited this long another season wont make a difference.

[grego]

i get that QB play helps WR's (as O line play helps a QB, for the record) but i have become less and less impressed with our WR's.

i do think thomas and kelly have a chance to be good, but we'll see.

i 'like' our WR's (in the nostalgic sense, i suppose- moss for the monday night miracle and randel el cuz he seems like a good guy) but i dont think they are very good. does that make sense?

[Hitman21ST]

Moss is spent as a #1 receiver, but he can still make plays if he goes into the slot, a la Wes Welker type. He might have lost a step, but he definitely can still beat any cover linebacker in the league. Put DT as the #1 guy, Moss in the slot, and MK as #3. Add to that Cooley and Davis at TEs, and we've got significant threats at receiver. We either need to get Campbell start making snap decisions or bring in one who can (I would prefer that we keep Campbell cause I think he can still be a good quarterback in the league). Add to that a running back who can actually run and make plays and a line that will give our quarterback more than 2 seconds, and we'll have a significantly better offense.

[Riggins77]

You are one of several people to mention this, therefore, I suppose I will go on a hiatus for a while. There are just not very many threads that I care to spend time on that are started outside of my own. Not that there are none, please do not go there. I have over 300 posts in a month, I post plenty in others threads. But there is only so much I can buy into regarding jerseys and hall of fame, etc. etc. etc.

But yeah, I will not post another thread for a long time, per request of numerous others besides yourself. I apologize for the inconvenience and I suppose conceited actions.

That said, thanks to all of you that have taken the time to put input into my threads, thank you thank you thank you. The questions I pose in my threads are ones I think about A LOT and try my very best to dissect and answer myself, but rarely does that get me where I hope to be. With all of your input I feel most of my tug-of-war thoughts pertaining to "our team" get me to a closure point.

Hail! :dallasuck

I wouldn't stop posting, but would focus on making your posts readable. Personally, I think you put in way too much thought and it clutters the post and makes it way too long. Not that the ideas aren't good.

In the words of the great Dr. Evil, "Tone it down a notch.":)

[Riggins77]

Wow. Threads like this make me embarrassed to be a Skins fan. (Or anytime some fan from a team I support tries to compare the team I like to one that is light years better)

We need everything, plus luck, destiny and even a few bribes along the way.

As much as our coaching moves seem to be a move in the right direction (and I sure hope it will help break our champion-less woes), we still suck as of this moment. We haven't proven jack-sh*t in years, so please people; I know you love the Redskins (as do I), but be realistic: WE ARE NOT THE SAINTS!!! WE CAN'T EVEN WEAR THEIR GAME USED JOCKSTRAPS.

P.S. I am also tired of people hating on teams that win with ex-players of ours. When you have an organization that is basically like a cancer, you can't hate people for succeeding in a system that works.

Why would someone's post make you embarrassed to be a Skins fan? Every fan base in every sport has fans of all types that draw the same conclusions.

Are we as good as the Saints? No. Are we far off? I'd say that we are farther away than a few players, but not light years away. With the right coaching and healthy players, it's fair to say we can be competitive consistently in 2-3 years.