So What if Zorn/Campbell year 3 does happen?

[tr1]

No coach wants to come in during the season to take over a mess of a team. They'd rather wait till the off season where they have 7 months to prepare.

And Zorn wouldn't stay anyways. Taking a step back in the organization might kill his career in coaching. I would have no respect for zorn if he stayed at some other capacity other than coach. That would be compared to stepping down from VP to the mail room.

Tell me, have you heard that the FO is ready to drop the guy in year two of a five year contract?

If so, can you tell me your source?

[NoCalMike]

I think what I am worried about is that if Zorn & Campbell are let go in the offseason, then the big hype is going to be on the new coach and QB to once again rescue the franchise.

The problem is Cerrato will still be here, and the Aging and decrepit O-line that can't seem to stay on the field for more than 5 games a season will still be here making the offense useless.

I kind of compare Zorn to a Brad Childress type of character. Brad Childress was on the chopping block a couple years ago, but instead of being reactionary, Minnesota stuck with Childress long enough for him to install an offense, draft players he wanted in the system, and get the players to learn and get comfortable in the offense. Now, yes Brett Favre having a monster comeback year helps, but Minnesota was still probably a playoff team without Favre.

Instead of contstantly chasing "the guy who is going to bring us glory" we need to stick with someone who is more low key, that will DEVELOP a new era of glory.

I dunno if Jim Zorn is it, but after two seasons trying to operate with this O-line and QB(who was drafted by Gibbs to be a 7 step drop back gunslinger), I am not sure if it is fair to say Jim Zorn is a failure.

[tr1]

Its called taking responsibility. No matter who we did or didn't have for a game, it doesn't matter because every team has problems. The good ones find out how to win no matter what. Everyone has to step up when things are bad and Zorn and Campbell (the two guys controlling the ship) haven't.

Wonderful.

I guess personnel has nothing to do with winning or losing?

What you say is true if you have talent on the field...what we have are a lot of guys who were on the street at the beginning of the season.

Let's try to apply common sense to our posts, eh?

[tr1]

I dunno if Jim Zorn is it, but after two seasons trying to operate with this O-line and QB(who was drafted by Gibbs to be a 7 step drop back gunslinger), I am not sure if it is fair to say Jim Zorn is a failure.

Hard to say.

The biggest problem seems to be trying a WCO with running-centric personnel.

Square peg, round hole.

Great coaches adjust to their personnel...(see Gibbs I)

[redskinsgod]

Tell me, have you heard that the FO is ready to drop the guy in year two of a five year contract?

If so, can you tell me your source?

Its obvious the FO has no faith in Zorn, you don't need a source. The guys basically a figure head til the off season.

If he stays, fine but If I was Zorn, I'd pack my bags out of self respect and go where I'm needed. Thats me though. There are several teams that could use zorn's assistance.

[tr1]

Its obvious the FO has no faith in Zorn, you don't need a source. The guys basically a figure head til the off season.

If he stays, fine but If I was Zorn, I'd pack my bags out of self respect and go where I'm needed. Thats me though. There are several teams that could use zorn's assistance.

What makes you think the FO wants to hire a strong head coach who will probably demand GM responsibilities?

I don't see it.

Zorn fits the FO...and, it's obvious.

[redskinsgod]

Wonderful.

I guess personnel has nothing to do with winning or losing?

What you say is true if you have talent on the field...what we have are a lot of guys who were on the street at the beginning of the season.

Let's try to apply common sense to our posts, eh?

Of course personnel have something to do with winning but teams have leaders and Zorn and Campbell were/are the leaders who need to step up when the personnel aren't performing. Unfortunately, they haven't and it shows by our record.

I had several coaches throughout my high school and college career and most were pretty bad. You can tell a true leader when times get tough. They always find a way to win no matter how many players are injured or under-performing.

[tr1]

...when the personnel aren't performing.

You may have noticed that a bunch of our NFL caliber personnel are now on IR...and, have been replaced with sub-NFL caliber players.

:doh:

There are too many teams, and talent is too diluted to think that subs can readily replace starters on a team...especially five or more.

[SkinsHokieFan]

You may have noticed that a bunch of our NFL caliber personnel are now on IR...and, have been replaced with sub-NFL caliber players.

:doh:

There are too many teams, and talent is too diluted to think that subs can readily replace starters on a team...especially five or more.

I agree with you there. I think its unfair to expect "depth" to carry a team with the type of injuries we have.

However, I STRONGLY disagree with the notion that we are 3 players away from being competitive

On offense you need to replace Samuels (his long term health) Rabach (who is a subpar center) Thomas (his long term health) and Heyer (a terrible RT, point blank)

You need another RB combo. CP is gonna be 29 by opening day next year and Betts and Cartwright are 30. Not very good there

WR- I have hope for Thomas/Kelly. I still think you can get 2 years out of Moss. Need a replacement for ARE, a smaller quicker stretch the field guy who can ALSO play special team

QB- I think its very obvious that JC is nothing more then a good backup QB now. You can argue that we were 6-2 with him in 2008, but this is before the NFL figured out Zorn at 4-1. The next 3 games were not good for the O, and JC has not helped at all since the first Eagles game in 2008

On defense

D-line: Need another DT. AH is terrific, but who next to him? Monty/Goltson? :hysterical:

I think DE depth is good IF Orakpo is there full time. Carter, Jarmon, Orakpo is a good rotation, and you can bring one other player in for depth

LB: London, while playing at a high level still, is in his mid 30s. Hopefully HB can step up

SLB: To replace Orakpo

WLB: I can live with Rocky, but those knees worry me

CBs: Need to replace Carlos. He is gone. Is Tryon the answer?

I can live with our safeties.

Essentially there is quite a long way to go before this team is near a competitive level. At least 2 good drafts

[Amateur Sketch]

People keep dwelling on the system when evaluating Zorn. You shouldn't. You can find quality assistants to call plays and help game plan. Zorn's main problem is his complete stupidity in game/timeout management and lack of a killer instinct. He also doesn't appear to be a great leader of men.

So what exactly does he bring to the table? He pretty much just takes things off of it.

[redskinsgod]

What makes you think the FO wants to hire a strong head coach who will probably demand GM responsibilities?

I don't see it.

Zorn fits the FO...and, it's obvious.

You may be right. I think Snyder hated the fact he had to give Gibbs free reign so he brought in Zorn to test the waters. But I think he learned his lesson. Coaching is about building systems and Gibbs is second to none in that arena.

I give credit to Snyder for giving a young talent like Zorn a try. Its the only way teams are going to find the next gibbs, shula, parcell's etc... If Zorn turned out to be an amazing coach, which he still might, he could give a franchise 10-15 years of his future and isn't that what they/we all want? I'm sick of switching coaches every 3-4 years.

[redskinsgod]

People keep dwelling on the system when evaluating Zorn. You shouldn't. You can find quality assistants to call plays and help game plan. Zorn's main problem is his complete stupidity in game/timeout management and lack of a killer instinct. He also doesn't appear to be a great leader of men.

So what exactly does he bring to the table? He pretty much just takes things off of it.

I agree with you in a way. A good leader knows how to build systems that everyone can be successful in. Zorn just doesn't have that experience yet so something as easy as clock management or play calling can be a hassle in a bad system. Zorn will learn it but I don't think Snyder will keep him based on the fact he is losing season ticket holders and the press is thumping him every week as a bad owner. What better way to solve that problem than hiring a coach like shanahan?

[holmester]

I think its obvious that Zorn is gonna be gone. Although he has been a terrible HC thus far (leadership, playcalling, throwing players under the bus), it is obvious he isn't the only problem. Our lack of depth and terrible O-line falls on Vinny. What is really scary is the probability that Vinny can persuade Snyder that he is not the problem by playing the injury bug and Sherm Lewis cards. If this happens we are flat out ****ed for another 5 years.

The Campbell situation I think is much more complicated and will come down to who is the next HC and if there is a new CBA or not.

We just need to realize that we can't get out of the hole Vinny has dug us in one year.

[redskinsgod]

You may have noticed that a bunch of our NFL caliber personnel are now on IR...and, have been replaced with sub-NFL caliber players.

:doh:

There are too many teams, and talent is too diluted to think that subs can readily replace starters on a team...especially five or more.

There are approximately 1600 players playing in the NFL every week. Trust me, they are all there for a reason and could kick ass in college any day of the week if they had to today. A good system brings every player up to par over time. Zorn has no clue how to build a team, he's too worried about coaching.

[isaacis881]

Rinse and Repeat.

[GoDeep81]

I find it hard to believe that a new head coach and a new starting QB in 2010 is going to make us an instant playoff contender, and it seems like the majority on this board are asking for that in 2010.

I dont think many believe were going to be a playoff contender in 2010, reguardless of what we do with Zorn and JC.. The team needs to get better, and ya need better players and coaches to do that.. If either of the two showed any potential at all, I think there would be more support to keep them, but Zorn is obviously not ready to be an NFL HC, and JC hasnt shown an iota of progress in his tenure as a Redskin starting QB.. In fact, I feel his game play has regressed, the longer he's played..

[redskinsgod]

I dont think many believe were going to be a playoff contender in 2010, reguardless of what we do with Zorn and JC.. The team needs to get better, and ya need better players and coaches to do that.. If either of the two showed any potential at all, I think there would be more support to keep them, but Zorn is obviously not ready to be an NFL HC, and JC hasnt shown an iota of progress in his tenure as a Redskin starting QB.. In fact, I feel his game play has regressed, the longer he's played..

I can't see why we wouldn't if the right moves were made. We have a top 5 D, were already half way there or more.

[NOLASKINSFAN]

I can't see why we wouldn't if the right moves were made. We have a top 5 D, were already half way there or more.

last year the saints were GWilliams away from 11-0...

Al Saunders? :hysterical:

I laugh to stop the tears.

[bubba9497]

I know this thread won't be popular, but what really is the best thing for us in 2010?

I find it hard to believe that a new head coach and a new starting QB in 2010 is going to make us an instant playoff contender, and it seems like the majority on this board are asking for that in 2010.

Even if say the Skins signed a veteren QB as a stop-gap measure, like a Jeff Garcia type player, that is only going to take us so far, especially with a new coach under a brand new system in which the entire team is going to have to learn all over again like we have seen almost every season for the last ten years.

I can't honestly sit here and try to say Zorn and/or Campbell are the answer to anything, but I can see Campbell returning next year as the starter due to there really being no better option even if a QB is drafted by us in 2010. I am not looking to get a rookie QB shell-shocked trying to play behind this O-line. If anything I think with a top pick that we are headed for, we might wanna trade down to get quanity as we need depth and a lot more of it on the offensive line.

Call me crazy but I see our offense getting better at moving the ball. With all the injuries happening this season, it is forcing our young draft picks into the game when maybe the coaches were hesitant to put them in so many packages before. We are seeing guys like Thomas & Davis show that when they get the ball in their hands they can elude defenders and make big plays. We have seen guys like Betts/Cartwright/Aldridge/Mason step up and show that while Portis in his prime was a beast, these days he probably isn't worth all the money he makes anymore. These guys are getting just as much production as Portis did behind the current O-line.

When Zorn was hired and brought a modified WCO to this organization most experts said right off the bat that it takes three years in the system to get the maximum production out of this offense.

I am doubting Year three of this coaching staff is going to happen, and if everyone is willing for this organization to take another step back in 2010(in order to eventually get good again) then I am all for it, but honestly I don't see a much better option for 2010 itself, than to try and see this thing through.

(begin throwing rotton tomatoes)

I have wondered the same thing myself.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and Zorn was kind of rushed into the job. Even though the team has faltered, I think he has improved as a coach.

I think Sherm Lewis hire was a good move, and after initial resistance Zorn has an experienced sound board to guide him.

If Holghriem was brought in as team president/GM, and help build the OL, and someone Zorn could trust and work with, like Parcells/Sparprano combo.

who knows

[The Full Monty]

The Bengals come to mind. I think Zorn is under a similar situation right now in that there is only so much we can get better when most of the talent is sitting on the bench.

I would never associate Marvin Lewis with Jim Zorn professionally.

Ever. Lewis doesn't coach scared as Zorn has time and again. Even with the season lost and nothing to lose, Zorn will settle for FG's rather than take a shot at the end zone. No balls.

Lewis doesn't let crappy performers keep their jobs and he is a leader of men. Zorn is a goofball and I'm embarrassed he's our coach.

[NoCalMike]

I dont think many believe were going to be a playoff contender in 2010, reguardless of what we do with Zorn and JC.. The team needs to get better, and ya need better players and coaches to do that.. If either of the two showed any potential at all, I think there would be more support to keep them, but Zorn is obviously not ready to be an NFL HC, and JC hasnt shown an iota of progress in his tenure as a Redskin starting QB.. In fact, I feel his game play has regressed, the longer he's played..

Well is it fair to say that the only time this team has been healthy and almost injury free was the first 8 games of the Jim Zorn era? And the team was 6-2 at that point.

Since then the O-line has never recovered from the constant injuries and aging it is suffering through.

Portis was the leagues leading rusher through the first half of last season. I don't think he suddenly now sucks or has lost 10 steps since last season.

To me, the line play is the most underrated aspect of this. I am sure most everyone watched the Saints tear apart New England last night? Is it a coincidence that Drew Brees was barely ever touched? Same with Brady when he was winning Superbowls, and with Peyton Manning almost every season. There is a common theme when it comes to these championship teams. Not to say Campbell will ever be half as good as those QBs mentioned, but it starts with solid line play, and the fact of the matter is the last time we had solid line play, the team was 6-2.

[MartinC]

I give credit to Snyder for giving a young talent like Zorn a try. Its the only way teams are going to find the next gibbs, shula, parcell's etc... If Zorn turned out to be an amazing coach, which he still might, he could give a franchise 10-15 years of his future and isn't that what they/we all want? I'm sick of switching coaches every 3-4 years.

Jim Zorn is 56. As the years go by and my own years accumulate I am starting to re think what the concepts of 'young' and 'old' mean - my teenage daughter in contrast has some quite fixed views on this subject. However even I would struggle to think of 56 as young.

Baring something remarkable Zorn will not be back next year. The question mark is will Vinny be back. I know most of us on here have no doubts on this but we dont get a vote.

Snyder wants to win. Thats clear. I just hope he is so pissed off with this season and the frustration of the continual mediocrity that he feels compelled to bring in a strong 'real' NFL GM with final say and give him the keys to the whole football operations.

I'd rather hire a GM and let him bring in a new coaching staff than get a big name head coach who insists on bringing in his own GM 'lite" with the real power being with the coach. Build top down and start with a new GM who can clean house as he sees fit.

Zorn is a great guy but he is part of the problem not part of the solution IMO. The improvement in the offense since Sherm Lewis was brought in has underlined that in my mind.

[Geoff_K]

Hell, I'd be happy if we started 45 rookies next year to start the rebuilding of the team.

I hope they do not give JZ and JC another year. Give me a killer minded coach that doesnt play to hold the lead, but plans to score 7 every drive.

[doobieous1]

even as hard as its been to watch this season, the skins need both to stay one more year. ever since hiring our offensive consultant, the offense is playing better and putting up more points. we are at the point where we are within one score of winning almost every game. that is something to build on and if we replace those two then were back to square one. give them another year to build on what they got so far. besides, campbell mostly looks so bad because hes running for his life every time he passes but even now hes starting to move around and make plays. i say keep them around.

[Oldfan]

Jim Zorn's playcalling was fine. The problem was in the execution by

-- an O-line with not enough talent to overcome injuries

-- a gimpy Clinton Portis

-- a grade C quarterback

The acquistion of Levi Jones and the concussion which benched Portis have helped pick up the running game which has improved the offense.

In the first four games, Greg Blache's passive defense had allowed 12 long, clock-eating drives which gave the offense less time on the field. The defense improved after Greg "threw himself under the bus" and promised to take more risks.

Zorn's calls on critical downs has been right on the money, in my opinion. He has been as aggressive as Belichick on fourth downs -- his team simply can't execute as well as NE. When he has played it conservative, he was right.

I think he could have done better getting the young receivers involved, but that's the only complaint I have with him.

We need a coach who can put a legit NFL passing game on the field, one that can play ball control. I don't know of anyone available who could do it better.