Banking on Failure To Get A Higher Pick? Think Again!

[polywog999]

This draft will be a failure if we don't come away with Russell Okung and one of the road-grating guards (Iupati from Idaho or Asamoah from Illinois). Maybe Anthony Davis, if he comes out.

I do not want Trent Williams.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=66894&draftyear=2010&genpos=OT

Name: Russell Okung

College: Oklahoma State Number: 76

Height: 6-5 Weight: 302

Position: OT Pos2: OG

Class/Draft Year:2010

40 Time: 5.26 40 Low: 5.12 40 High: 5.38

Projected Round: 1

[Riggo#44]

lol, well at least i know that now!

to be honest im not the guy to discuss draft prospects, i usually just try to listen to as many people and read as much as i can about guys coming out as i dont watch college football. usually just from reading and listening enough you can get a pretty good feel for who seems to be a good pick. so far okung and bradford have mostly glowing reviews.

im reminded of our 2001 draft where we had picks 2 and 3. man itd be sweet to have that this year.

Yeah -- I just hope the rest of the draft isn't totally useless like the 2000 draft was!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Yeah -- I just hope the rest of the draft isn't totally useless like the 2000 draft was!

2000:

1st: lavar arrington

1st: chris samuels

3rd: lloyd harrison (who?)

4th: michael moore (who?)

5th: quincy sanders (who?)

6th: todd husak (who?)

7th: delbert cowsette (who?)

7th: ethan howell (who?)

talk about a good draft after the first 3 picks of the entire thing. lol, im not sure any of these guys lasted more than 2 years on the skins.

was vinny running this draft? yes he was.

[Riggo#44]

was vinny running this draft? yes he was.

Oh yes he was...more picks have been wasted under Cerrato then any GM this side of Matt Millen!

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I want change at the GM position. Period. We have had to endure Vinny for quite some time and look at the position we are in. The offensive has been IGNORED for years and it's the reason for the skins lack of production outside of Jason, I can't see wide open TE's in the middle of the field and overthrow wide open WR's consistently, Campbell. And on that note: the punter has more touch on his passes.

Marty was the only smart coach we have had and fired Vinny who will NOT WORK anywhere else in the league once he's gone here.

That said, I agree with drafting a linemen with our first pick UNLESS Bradford is around. It's a total crapshoot but I think he has tremendous upside. If not, you get a vet and let him play until Colt is ready. If Colt isn't the answer, then it's time to draft another QB but not until the O LINE is fixed.

I can't believe some are comfortable with Vinny calling the shots. Outside of the first and second round his picks have NOT panned out. Horton is decent but doughty is obviously better. How about that punter? Chad Rinehart? I could go through his draft picks and you tell me how many are either a) still in the league or starting here or elsewhere. my guess - 4 or 5

edit:

2009

Round Pick Overall Name Position College

1 13 13 Brian Orakpo DE Texas - excellent pick

3 16 80 Kevin Barnes CB Maryland - hasn't even gotten a chance to play

5 22 158 Cody Glenn LB Nebraska - who

6 13 186 Robert Henson LB Texas Christian - who

7 12 221 Eddie Williams TE Idaho - who

7 34 243 Marko Mitchell WR Nevada - jury is still out on these, but good pick imo

2008 Draft

Round Pick Overall Name Position College

2 3 34 Devin Thomas WR Michigan State - jury out

2 17 48 Fred Davis TE Southern California - jury

2 20 51 Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma - jury

3 33 96 Chad Rinehart G Northern Iowa - I'm saying bust but who knows

4 25 124 Justin Tryon CB Arizona State - could be good

6 2 168 Durant Brooks P Georgia Tech - Wow.

6 14 180 Kareem Moore S Nicholls State - jury

6 20 186 Colt Brennan QB Hawaii - never played a down

7 35 242 Rob Jackson DE Kansas State - don't think he's seen action

7 42 249 Chris Horton S UCLA - good pick

2007 Draft

Round Pick Overall Name Position College

1 6 6 LaRon Landry S Louisiana State - blue chip

5 6 143 Dallas Sartz LB Southern California - who

6 5 179 H. B. Blades LB Pittsburgh - backup/special teamer

6 31 205 Jordan Palmer QB Texas-El Paso - who

7 6 216 Tyler Ecker TE Michigan - who

2006

2. Roger McIntosh, OLB, Miami - 35th overall - obv good pick

5. Anthony Montgomery, DT, Minnesota - 153rd overall - good pick

6. Reed Doughty, S, North Colorado - 173rd overall - good pick

6. Kedric Golston, DT, Georgia - 196th overall - good pick

7. Kili Lefotu, OG, Arizona - 230th overall - who

7. Kevin Simon, ILB, Tennessee - 250th overall - who

2005

1. Carlos Rogers, CB, Auburn (9th overall) - stone hands

1. Jason Campbell, QB, Auburn (25th overall) - career backup

4. Manuel White, FB, UCLA (120th overall) - who

5. Robert McCune, ILB, Louisville (154th overall) - who

6. Jared Newberry, OLB, Stanford (183rd overall) - who

7. Nehemiah Broughton, FB, The Citadel (222nd overall) - who

2004

1. Sean Taylor, S, Miami - 5th overall - excellent pick blue chip

3. Chris Cooley, TE, Utah State - 81st overall - excellent pick

5. Mark Wilson, OT, California - 151st overall - who

6. Jim Molinaro, OT, Notre Dame - 180th overall - who

2003

2. Taylor Jacobs, WR, Florida - 44th overall - wow.

3. Derrick Dockery, G, Texas - 81st overall - good pick

7. Gibran Hamdan, QB, Indiana - 232nd overall - who

2002

1. Patrick Ramsey, QB, Tulane - career backup

2. Ladell Betts, RB, Iowa - good pick

3. Rashad Bauman, CB, Oregon - who

3. Cliff Russell, WR, Utah - practice pro

5. Andre Lott, S, Tennessee - who

5. Robert Royal, TE, LSU - good backup blocking TE

6. Reggie Coleman, T, Tennessee - who

7. Jeff Grau, LS, UCLA - who

7. Greg Scott, DE, Hampton - who

7. Rock Cartwright, FB, Kansas St. - good pick

2001

1. Rod Gardner, WR, Clemson - 50/50! but selected by Marty

2. Fred Smoot, CB, Mississippi St. - blue chip

4. Sage Rosenfels, QB, Iowa St. - good career backup

5. Darnerien McCants, WR, Delaware St. - who, lol

6. Mario Monds, DT, Cincinnati - who

2000

1. LaVar Arrington, LB, Penn St.

1. Chris Samuels, T, Alabama - blue chipper anyone could have gotten this and Lavar right

3. Lloyd Harrison, CB, N.C. State - who

4. Michael Moore, G, Troy St. - who

5. Quincy Sanders, S, UNLV - who

6. Todd Husak, QB, Stanford - who

7. Del Cowsette, DT, Maryland - who

7. Ethan Howell, WR, Oklahoma St. - who

1999

1. Champ Bailey, CB, Georgia - blue chip pick

2. Jon Jansen, T, Michigan - blue chip pick

4. Nate Stimson, LB, Georgia Tech - Where are they now?

5. Derek Smith, OL, Virginia Tech - Not bad.

6. Jeff Hall, K, Tennessee - as far as kickers go, terrible

7. Tim Alexander, WR, Oregon St. - Who

[polywog999]

2000:

1st: lavar arrington

1st: chris samuels

3rd: lloyd harrison (who?)

4th: michael moore (who?)

5th: quincy sanders (who?)

6th: todd husak (who?)

7th: delbert cowsette (who?)

7th: ethan howell (who?)

talk about a good draft after the first 3 picks of the entire thing. lol, im not sure any of these guys lasted more than 2 years on the skins.

was vinny running this draft? yes he was.

Dude! That was nine years ago. Don't make capt. Dan mad!!!

Michael Moore...Duh!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moore

[ouvan59]

Omitting '08 and '09 b/c there is still time for players to improve.

Here:

2007:

5. Dallas Sartz, LB USC

6. H.B. Blades, LB, Pittsburgh

7. Jordan Palmer, QB, Texas-El Paso

7. Tyler Ecker, TE, Michigan

Other then Blades...garbage.

2006:

6. Reed Doughty, S, North Colorado - 173rd overall

6. Kedric Golston, DT, Georgia - 196th overall

7. Kili Lefotu, OG, Arizona - 230th overall

7. Kevin Simon, ILB, Tennessee - 250th overall

Other then Doughty or Golston, nothing there.

2005, 3rd or later:

4. Manuel White, FB, UCLA (120th overall)

5. Robert McCune, ILB, Louisville (154th overall)

6. Jared Newberry, OLB, Stanford (183rd overall)

7. Nehemiah Broughton, FB, The Citadel (222nd overall)

All out of the league

2004, 3rd or later:

3. Chris Cooley, TE, Utah State - 81st overall

5. Mark Wilson, OT, California - 151st overall

6. Jim Molinaro, OT, Notre Dame - 180th overall

Neither Wilson or Molinaro amounted to anything

2003:

3. Derrick Dockery, G, Texas - 81st overall

7. Gibran Hamdan, QB, Indiana - 232nd overall

Hamdan never did anything.

2002:

5. Andre Lott, S, Tennessee

5. Robert Royal, TE, LSU

6. Reggie Coleman, T, Tennessee

7. Jeff Grau, LS, UCLA

7. Greg Scott, DE, Hampton

7. Rock Cartwright, FB, Kansas St.

What a pile of garbage, other then Rock a solid ST guy.

2000:

3. Lloyd Harrison, CB, N.C. State

4. Michael Moore, G, Troy St.

5. Quincy Sanders, S, UNLV

6. Todd Husak, QB, Stanford

7. Del Cowsette, DT, Maryland

7. Ethan Howell, WR, Oklahoma St.

More garbage.

So do tell, how many players are on other teams and doing well?

Face it. It doesn't matter what pick we have. What player we sign. We will be mediocre at best with the current FO.

I don't know. That looks like standard return on second day draft picks. Personally I think Vinny has drafted fine but I think he has been an absolute failure in three areas.

1. Picking a quality coach and coaching staff.

2. Finding a competent QB.

3. His failure to address the offensive line this past offseason is beyond puzzling.

Is that grounds for firing? I say yes but I don't think his evaluation of talent is as bad as many of you make it out to be.

A good coaching staff could probably find a way to win with Jason Campbell at the helm. A great QB could probably win with this coaching staff. But put them together and you get Floyd and Gomer. And with the complete lack of depth on the offensive line it's a recipe for absolute disaster. I'm not even talking about spending huge bucks on the line or using a first round pick. I'm talking about bringing in at least competent backups.

But I watch Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas and Fred Davis on the field and they look every bit the players I expected them to be. We just don't have a QB that will throw them the ball where it needs to be thrown.

We also have a defensive coordinator that plays his DBs 12 yards off the ball on blitzes. Hello?

[Newera]

Vinny's early picks have been decent. It's his mid to late round picks.

[polywog999]

I want change at the GM position. Period. We have had to endure Vinny for quite some time and look at the position we are in. The offensive has been IGNORED for years and it's the reason for the skins lack of production outside of Jason, I can't see wide open TE's in the middle of the field and overthrow wide open WR's consistently, Campbell. And on that note: the punter has more touch on his passes...

Here is an interesting article on the best and worst NFL draft teams...

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft.html

Despite the redskins lack of need for second day players, they still are not among the leagues five worst teams as far as keeping draft picks.

Two teams who regularly do poorly with the draft are

New England...

With three Super Bowl wins since 2001, the Patriots are the team of the decade so far. They boast a 39-9 record in the past three years. How have they maintained that excellence? Though saddled with low draft picks, the Patriots have been the masters of picking up useful veterans via trades to fill holes in their lineup (see: receivers Randy Moss and Wes Welker).

and Pittsburgh...

Third worst is another surprise: the world champion Pittsburgh Steelers, with only 58% of their drafted players still on the team and no All-Pros among them. Like the Patriots, the perennially contending Steelers usually have a low draft spot, but they have fulfilled their needs by finding and developing excellent undrafted rookies over the years, like running back Willie Parker and linebacker James Harrison, the 2008 defensive player of the year.

One important factor concerning the Redskins lack of use for their draft picks, is that they get most of their starters and key backups from free agency. Thus they do not have a tendency to hold on to and develop second day players.

http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Free_Agency__Redskins_Usually_Aggressive_5464.jsp

2000:

1st: lavar arrington

1st: chris samuels

3rd: lloyd harrison (who?)

4th: michael moore (who?)

5th: quincy sanders (who?)

6th: todd husak (who?)

7th: delbert cowsette (who?)

7th: ethan howell (who?)

In fairness to the Skins, this was probably the worst NFL draft class of the decade!

In addition, we brought in these free agents that year...

2000

FREE AGENTS

DE Bruce Smith S Mark Carrier RB Adrian Murrell

QB Jeff George DE Nolan Harrison OL J. Leeuwenburg

CB T. Drakeford CB Deion Sanders

That's a mighty full house!

So, you see, It ain't as simple as "these guys didn't play, so they suck..."

The skins actually have a good reputation, as a team to "dumpster hunt." Their cast offs are considered "desirable." :point2sky

[TheSkins2006]

Changing head coaches ever couple years is definitively not helping, so now you want more change?

Fixed.

Considering we have had the same stupid GM since 2003

[polywog999]

This is the same thinking that got us in this mess. Quit effing around with "proven commodities." Get a FO that knows WTF they're doing. Draft some g-damned linemen, and beginning to grow our own talent.

Stop teasing me Riggo. Be rough with me...

Hurt Me!!!

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Poly,

That is an interesting article regarding some of the "worst" drafting teams. However, it's tough to quantify the following thing:

How good are the players that stick with their respective teams? For example, Big Ben is a top-10 QB. Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes make up a top-10 WR corps. Troy Polomolu is a top-5 safety in the NFL. I could go on. The guys who stick for us include some studs, but a lot of non-impact players as well.

[Gregpeck99]

Polwogg you'r as delusional as ever ... what are you trying to do? Gain attention? Having a very high Draft position is the only way to get a franchise QB ... the key to success in the NFL ... and something the Skins have been unable to do for almost 20 years.

[polywog999]

Poly,

That is an interesting article regarding some of the "worst" drafting teams. However, it's tough to quantify the following thing:

How good are the players that stick with their respective teams? For example, Big Ben is a top-10 QB. Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes make up a top-10 WR corps. Troy Polomolu is a top-5 safety in the NFL. I could go on. The guys who stick for us include some studs, but a lot of non-impact players as well.

I would think that there are too many intangibles to correctly gauge what kind of job, overall, that the front office is doing.

No two players are even remotely the same. How then, do you judge a whole team? A daunting task, no doubt and one which I am Ill equipped to embark at this late juncture of the evening!

[polywog999]

Polwogg you'r as delusional as ever ... what are you trying to do? Gain attention? Having a very high Draft position is the only way to get a franchise QB ... the key to success in the NFL ... and something the Skins have been unable to do for almost 20 years.

You want a piece of me dark cloud? I'll disturb your upper atmospheric pressure!

\

So you're the Dark Cloud and I'm the State Of Denial...

Go figure.

[Xero21]

I actually don't think Vinny is all that bad at evaluating talent.

What he is horrible at is being in charge, and deciding what direction the draft should go in. We've had lots of good late round steals as of late, as well as Cooley, McIntosh, Taylor. Some real good players.

And all the while, we didn't address the OL. It's not the player evaluating, it's the direction Vinny chooses to take.

I'd be fine with Vinny staying with the team, just as a scout. Put a real GM in charge of the war room.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I actually don't think Vinny is all that bad at evaluating talent.

What he is horrible at is being in charge, and deciding what direction the draft should go in. We've had lots of good late round steals as of late, as well as Cooley, McIntosh, Taylor. Some real good players.

And all the while, we didn't address the OL. It's not the player evaluating, it's the direction Vinny chooses to take.

I'd be fine with Vinny staying with the team, just as a scout. Put a real GM in charge of the war room.

I think this is a fair and objective evaluation of Vinny. He obviously has an eye for talent and could be a very good head college scout.

He should NOT be running football operations. He doesn't appear to be capable of determining and instituting an organizational identity or (as you mention) direction/strategy.

It always seems that he's haphazardly just picking talent regardless of if that talent fits our scheme, team needs, etc.

[Brett81]

Two teams who regularly do poorly with the draft are...

New England and Pittsburgh

But as it states in your reasoning, they both usually pick late every round so what was available earlier has been looted already.

Since we've been discussing the possibility of a Franchise QB in round 1 of this coming draft b/c of JC's ineptness...here's a list of the past 10 SB Winning QB's and their respective stats for their title run starting with Warner's 1999 season.

Player/Year Comp Att Comp% Yds Y/Att TD Int Rating

Kurt Warner/1999 325 499 65.1 4353 8.72 41 13 109.2

Trent Dilfer/2000 134 226 59.3 1502 6.65 12 11 76.6

Tom Brady/2001 264 413 63.9 2843 6.88 18 12 86.5

*Drew Bledsoe/2001 40 66 60.6 400 6.06 2 2 75.3

Brad Johnson/2002 281 451 62.3 3049 6.76 22 6 92.9

Tom Brady/2003 317 527 60.2 3620 6.87 23 12 85.9

Tom Brady/2004 288 474 60.8 3692 7.79 28 14 92.6

Roethlisberger/2005 168 268 62.7 2385 8.90 17 9 98.6

*Tommy Maddox/2005 34 71 47.9 406 5.72 2 4 51.7

Peyton Manning/2006 362 557 65.0 4397 7.89 31 9 101.0

Eli Manning/2007 297 529 56.1 3336 6.31 23 20 73.9

Roethlisberger/2008 281 469 59.9 3301 7.04 17 15 80.1

All of the above QB's were top 10 or better in terms of production during their SB runs...except for Dilfer, Eli, and Big Ben in his second, but they didn't need to be considering all of their respective defenses will go down as some of the greatest D's in NFL History.

Since Washington has a really good defense, they have their problems here and there but are still really good, they need a QB that can put up the numbers to overcome what deficiencies the D does have.

Brady was a late round steal that only Belichick saw coming...I would say Cassel too but look at KC now so it goes back to the Pats as a team...says a lot about them. Both Manning's went early Rd 1, Big Ben should've been early round 1 and he's already expressed his displeasure about it though it has seemed to work out for him pretty good...2 rings!

Since Washington hasn't had great success evaluating and finding diamonds in the rough late, especially at QB, or anywhere in the draft...then if the most obvious selection available in the first round is a premier QB, they should just take it whether JC is here or not next year...otherwise, OL OL OL...and maybe a rb with some speed please...see Ryan Mathews or Dexter McCluster.

Just think about all the people they've passed on...Rodgers, AP...this could be an entirely different team right now!

[Skin'emAlive]

Actually, Vinnie has done a very good job with the draft picks. His latest find, Orakpo is tearing it up!

Sean Taylor, Rocky Macintosh, JJ, Horton, and a host of other picks that have worked out (and some that have not.)

Problem does not seem to be a lack of assessment skills concerning players, but a lack of consistency in the coaching staff and proper direction for the team.

True Vinny has technically produced some quality draft picks. However this does not address the biggest problem, Cohesiveness within the Scheme. He is just selecting the BPA, even if those players do not match our scheme. What follows is a cluster **** of good players that are misplaced into project roles. ( orakpo = lb, Jason Taylor = run stuffing RE, 3-5 fullbacks when we already have sellers, Campbell in a west coast offense, 2 power back options and no change of pace back, project receivers, Fred Davis = blocking TE). That is a short list.

We should be selecting players that fit our scheme. A scheme that fits the team. .. as well as players that fill our immediate needs.

[polywog999]

Polwogg you'r as delusional as ever ... what are you trying to do? Gain attention? Having a very high Draft position is the only way to get a franchise QB ... the key to success in the NFL ... and something the Skins have been unable to do for almost 20 years.

From; http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=304306...

Bad teams are actually being crippled by having to pick higher in the draft. The enormously excessive rookie contracts, have a crippling effect on the losing team.

http://apurvadesai.com/2009/04/27/nfl-draft-are-rookie-contracts-holding-back-losing-teams/

I think the reason we’ve had such a disparity in the 2000s within the NFL (e.g. 2008 win less Lions, 2007 unbeaten Patriots) is because the teams that make the playoffs are rewarded with better valued draft choices. It’s unfair, period. Why is this not the main story from the media during this year’s draft?”

...and thank you! I pride myself for thinking against the status quo. I never go along with what comes down the pike, without a little old fashioned research.

But as it states in your reasoning, they both(New England & Pittsburgh) usually pick late every round so what was available earlier has been looted already.

They have collectively won 5 SB's this decade, so maybe It's a good thing...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/06/01/decade/index.html