A closer look at MK's 2nd INT.

[RocketCitySkins]

See my revised post. He was well-covered. Would bet dollars to donuts that MK was JC's #1 read. That's fine, he can't make reads or didn't have time -- doesn't matter. Still thrown to the wrong shoulder...but MK did have single coverage and a height advantage.

So, in conclusion, both JC and MK screwed the pooch on that play.

Kelly had to be JC's number one read. On my software the ball is snapped at 39:57:19/30 and the throw started at 39:58:08/30. That's not even a second after the snap. The sack or hit while throwing would have occured at 39:59:04/30, or less than two seconds after the snap.

And then I watch Favre and the announcers talked all night about his 7 seconds of protection time. :mad:

[TheLongshot]

I think everyone is talking past each other.

I think so too. The pass could have been better, but it wasn't poor. Kelly's leap also could have been better. Talib did a good job defending the play and made a great play to come up with the INT.

[RedskinsTime]

I think everyone is talking past each other.

Facts:

1. MK was covered and covered well; so, JC probably had already decided at the snap if he saw MK in single coverage he was throwing the ball.

2. Throw should have been to MK's outside shoulder. It wasn't.

3. MK mistimed his jump. If he wants to become elite, he needs to still catch those balls. The throw was close enough, where it was basically a 60/40 ball in favor of the CB, but MK should have used his height and jumping ability to win it.

I think this is a fair assessment. Blame is shared by both JC and MK.

[TheLongshot]

We don't see Moss in the pics posted. But much like ARE, he was juking his defender and had JC attempted to look to Moss he would have been drilled by the DE that beat Samuels and most likely fumbled.

You misunderstood what I said. The read was at the line. He could have read the other direction. No, I don't think it was a play where Campbell could come off of Kelly once he decided to go that direction.

[Wrong Direction]

Some of you need to play catch with friends.

The defender had great position on Kelly. Kelly had two options 1) try to hold his ground a little more, rather than being forced to the sideline, or 2) try to make an over the defender play on the ball. Both are extremely difficult mid-play. Indeed, #1 is nearly impossible after you release from the line of scrimmage. If Kelly had a better release, he might have been in a better position relative to the sideline.

With great coverage, Campbell has three options for where to place the ball 1) Throw high and deep, to the outside shoulder, 2) try to hit the receiver in stride, like he did, or 3) throw to the back shoulder.

Given the coverage, Campbell's ball was thrown to the one place that put his receiver in the worst position.

I'm still glad he threw that ball and I hope he learns from it. Kelly needs to do a better job getting separation, but a ball that's better placed is still a big play for the Skins. It wasn't the wrong play, it just wasn't executed by Campbell or Kelly. Still, it's a play we should go back to this week. Perfect that and you have a new weapon in the offense.

[HailRiggoRanger]

MK was absolutely JC's #1 read. He only had 3 reads on that play, but he saw the single coverage, saw the blitz on his right side, and got the ball out of there.

Look at the frames in the very first post, Kelly gets ahead of Talib. If Kelly stays in stride he gets the ball before Talib has a chance too. Instead, Kelly jumped early, while Talib was the one who stayed in stride and was able to make the INT.

The ball could have been thrown higher and longer, but Kelly had the chance to make a play on it and misread. Like IrepDC and others have said, Brandon Marshall's TD catch was a similar throw in a similar situation, except he made the right read and turned it into a TD. I don't see people saying that was a bad throw or bad decision on Orton's part.

We agree. It's impossible to see what the other reads were in those pictures. Don't think it mattered to JC. Zorn kept it simple -- MK is the #1 read...if he's in single coverage, throw it. The blitz easily pushed JC to not think but to chuck it.

Also, guarantee that, Zorn, like other QB coaches has told JC countless times: single coverage with CB committed to the inside, throw it to the receiver's outside shoulder. So, that only he can catch it or at worse it goes out of bounds. Period. It's a no-brainer coaching technique, as any decent throw on a fade to the endzone is done.

MK leapt way too early, bad mistake. But, I think he misjudged the ball and reacted without thinking (like JC facing a blitz) thinking the ball was going to make it to his outside shoulder.

[RIDETHEWALRUS]

. . . if the ball is under thrown, then how is it AHEAD of Kelly?

He's REACHING OUT two feet upfield for this UNDER thrown ball?

Sorry, no sale.

Underthrown is the incorrect phrase. Poorly thrown is the correct way to put it. The ball should have been higher and slightly shorter. When you have a 6'4 WR being covered by a 5'10 DB, you have to put the ball high.

[Skinsrdatruth]

Actually it was a designed play as there was no hesitation from snap to the throw. JC didn't wait or anything before throwing the ball.

Idk if you can say it was designed as in he was throwing to MK regardless of the situation

[elkabong82]

JC is an average QB. I have nothing for him or against him. He has a ton of natural ability but still can't read a defense after 5 years.

Really? Because when you come into a thread and the only thing you add in your first post is: "Exactly. JCs bad read. Case closed" when it was a one-on-one opportunity, it is really difficult to believe you have nothing against him.

You agreed with another poster who said MK was covered the whole time and because of that the throw should never have been made. You then back-tracked to put the blame on both JC and Kelly. But in this play we're discussing, Campbell saw the blitz, saw one-on-one coverage, and went for it. That's reading a defense. If he couldn't read a defense then his completion percentage wouldn't be at 65.

But again, your non-hesitancy in this thread to try and dump everything on Campbell with your very first post strongly suggests you do have something against him. Try more of your 2nd post next time, and less of your first, I believe you'll get much better conversation that way.

[redskins55]

looks like MK jumped early IMO.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

How is this not obvious that Kelly mistimed his jump. That play was designed to give Kelly a chance to fight for the ball. Campbell NEVER throws that ball but decided to give him a chance on Sunday. Kelly is simply not playing well. He turned to look for the football waaaay to early letting the defender know that the ball was coming! Then mistimed his jump and let the defender fight for the ball. In the preseason Campbell threw a fade to the endzone vs the Pats and Kelly instead of stopping, resetting his feet and jumping at the ball's highest point tried to catch it over his shoulder with the defender draped all over him!

Folks this is stuff you can't teach its just instincts! Natural football savvy!

I think Marko Mitchell is a playmaker but our coaches wont put him in!!

[HailRiggoRanger]

I think this is a fair assessment. Blame is shared by both JC and MK.

Thanks, I think those findings of fact are fair. I have nothing against JC (or MK). If anything, I have more confidence in Zorn's playcalling...everyone on this board has been begging for a "throw it to the tall receiver" play, and Zorn's call was perfect and at the right time (facing a blitz with one-on-one coverage on MK).

[elkabong82]

Underthrown is the incorrect phrase. Poorly thrown is the correct way to put it. The ball should have been higher and slightly shorter. When you have a 6'4 WR being covered by a 5'10 DB, you have to put the ball high.

If the WR is ahead of the CB, which in frame 4 and 5 in the first post you can see he his, you want to hit him in stride, and on the side of his body that won't lead him out of bounds.

Also, Kelly is looking back and to his left for the ball the whole way, if the ball had been thrown to the other side, that is an incredibly difficult catch to make, directly over your head and on the sideline. If Kelly stays in stride it's an easier catch, IMO.

[TheItalianStallion]

Some of you need to play catch with friends.

The defender had great position on Kelly.

No he didn't. Kelly had a step and was beginning to cut to the inside on Talib. Prior to the premature jump, he began to slow down, erasing his chance to cut in front of Talib. THEN he jumped way early. If he keeps running, then he AT LEAST knocks the pass down, if not get inside position and make the play.

[HailRiggoRanger]

Really? Because when you come into a thread and the only thing you add in your first post is: "Exactly. JCs bad read. Case closed" when it was a one-on-one opportunity, it is really difficult to believe you have nothing against him.

Np...will try to lay objective facts in the future to appease both the JC supporters and bashers. You're right, my first post should have said: Exactly. JC's no read. Case closed.

As I said, JC is an average QB. My 2nd post is on the money. Am not back tracking on JC's inability to read a defense, and I don't believe he even tried to read the defense there (i.e., my first post is also on the money). Mk was his #1 read and he chucked the ball upon seeing the blitz. MK was as well covered as Moss was covered when JC was intercepted in the 3rd quarter. MK, with his height, needed to overcome a marginal throw.

It doesn't matter, great play call by Zorn. Poor execution by both JC and MK.

[HailRiggoRanger]

Kelly had to be JC's number one read. On my software the ball is snapped at 39:57:19/30 and the throw started at 39:58:08/30. That's not even a second after the snap. The sack or hit while throwing would have occured at 39:59:04/30, or less than two seconds after the snap.

And then I watch Favre and the announcers talked all night about his 7 seconds of protection time. :mad:

Great analysis. JC threw the ball to a well-covered WR, which is fine for one-on-coverage. He should have gotten the ball to the outside shoulder.

[indyskins]

It was a bad throw, no doubt about that and JC shouldn't make that throw.

I have more of a problem with Kelly's going to get that ball. Kelly has to battle for that ball. JC kind of alluded to this in post game when talking about the TD to Moss, basically saying that when he says single coverage with no safety, he trusts that Santana will beat his man. In a one on one jump ball, Kelly should be able to identify the ball and help out the QB. That is probably why he doesn't get thrown to, I don't really see MK making good plays on these jump balls and long passes, he has shown nice hands on crossing and underneath routes but deep balls he looks like he isn't sure how to make a play on them.

[moondog]

UNDERTHROWN? Jesus....

Should it have been thrown? Probably not........Kelly got ZERO seperation. But underthrown......come onnnnnnnnn look where he is reaching for the ball.

Yes, UNDERTHROWN. It's obvious both on video and stills that Kelly and Talib were stride for stride and Campbell threw a jump ball hoping Kelly would get the best of it. The ball was underthrown so instead of being ahead of Kelly and over his shoulder giving him the advantage, the ball was to the inside and short. Kelly clearly SLOWS DOWN to let Talib pass him so that he can try and dive back in front/inside to catch the ball.

[grego]

didnt see anyone bring this up yet- sorry if i missed it- but if the DB has inside position on MK, while the DB's back is still to the ball, can't MK just sort of run to the ball/thru the DB?

even if they both tumble to the ground, it seems to me the refs would likely throw a flag on the DB for PI.

as for who's to blame, not a perfect throw. but kelly was drafted to make plays just like this. he appears to jump early but has to at least knock it away. he'll get better, i believe. as will JC's throws such as these. so, no- not all on JC by any stretch. (but he did have a horrid first half)

[paintrain]

Yes, UNDERTHROWN. It's obvious both on video and stills that Kelly and Talib were stride for stride and Campbell threw a jump ball hoping Kelly would get the best of it. The ball was underthrown so instead of being ahead of Kelly and over his shoulder giving him the advantage, the ball was to the inside and short. Kelly clearly SLOWS DOWN to let Talib pass him so that he can try and dive back in front/inside to catch the ball.

Explain how a ball is underthrown when MK jumps at the 26 and the ball is caught at the 22. Too far to the inside and low, maybe, but underthrown? No.

[HailRiggoRanger]

correct. he probably already had his mind made up that he was gonna go to kelly and just chucked it up even though he was blanketed. best case scenario with that throw is that the ball gets batted down for an incompletion.

Have re-examined the frames and as I repeatedly stated, JC made no read on that play. None. It didn't matter to him if MK was covered or open. JC never took his eyes off him and had no idea about how close the blind-side blitzer was (unless he has eyes in the back of his head). MK was well-covered. So was ARE, but JC wouldn't have known that b/c he never turned to the left to look at him. I have no idea where Moss was on that play or how open he was.

[HailGreen28]

didnt see anyone bring this up yet- sorry if i missed it- but if the DB has inside position on MK, while the DB's back is still to the ball, can't MK just sort of run to the ball/thru the DB?

even if they both tumble to the ground, it seems to me the refs would likely throw a flag on the DB for PI.

as for who's to blame, not a perfect throw. but kelly was drafted to make plays just like this. he appears to jump early but has to at least knock it away. he'll get better, i believe. as will JC's throws such as these. so, no- not all on JC by any stretch. (but he did have a horrid first half)

Technically the DB has as much right to position on the field as the WR.

On that play, the CB was looking at the ball, so it would have been Offensive PI. Which would've still been better than the INT.

[Bubble Screen]

picture #9 - Kelly in perfect position for back shoulder throw (per announcer).

Yeah, I remember hearing this. It was just a horrible decision. Not sure that would have even helped. He was blanketed on that play.

[Spartacus87]

Campbell could have maybe made a slightly better throw there, but people get on his case for not throwing it up to our receivers and letting them try to make plays, and when he does, this happens and somehow it's automatically all his fault.

We drafted Malcolm Kelly to make plays like this, in the red zone and along the sideline. Talib is a good corner, but Kelly shouldn't be a slouch either on situations that favor his physical attributes like that one.

Campbell made some much dumber plays during the game (particularly that last INT which was just awful and him desperately trying to force a play), but this one wasn't one of them.

Kelly needs to do a better job and play more physical.

[laurent]

Talib played text book coverage on that play, that ball should have never left Campbells hand. That said, great effort by Malcolm and he nearly managed to make a play on the ball.

I don't see how this can be put on the receiver.

[HoggLife]

UNDERTHROWN? Jesus....

JC had the worse game of his career.....dont think anyone is arguing that. Not sure why some are trying to convince us that he sucked on sunday.....he sucked really badly in the first half.

We got the win so in no way was this Cambells worst game of his career. The worst game this season maybe but when you get the win it cant be the worst in his career. I can think of plenty of loss' he looks worse in.