Rams Receivers open on last play

[darrelgreenie]

we were in a cover 2 zone. the cb is to ride the receiver to the safety. they did exactly what they are supposed to do.

I know we're in cover 2 zone the discussion is about wether or not you think that Cover 2 zone is the right call for the situation?

Some don't think its smart to let their fastest receiver have a free release and full head of steam running at out SS.

Other think the call makes perfect sense.

What do you think about the call?

And did you notice the receivers actually behind our secondary?

HTTR!

[[[ghost]]]

I couldn't believe that we had our SS covering the fastest player on the opposing team on a last second hail mary.

Zorn saw this happen last year. Did he not anticipate Donnie Avery going deep again with all the chips against him, to set up the BEST FG kicker in teh game?

Josh Brown regularly hits 50+ yard FGs. He's even better at them when his team needs it to win.

Fortunately, Chris Hortin is an elite safety who is no Leigh Torrence.

Zorn's coaching methodology was the only reason why St. Louis was in teh game. Our DBs play off on 3rd and Short, our QB doesn't throw inside the 20s, and we avoid kicking FGs which would all but guarantee a victory, just so we can maybe look impressive on the stat sheet.

[Maximus71]

];6786587'] just so we can maybe look impressive on the stat sheet.

And or for Zorn to keep his job

[[[ghost]]]

I know we're in cover 2 zone the discussion is about wether or not you think that Cover 2 zone is the right call for the situation?

Some don't think its smart to let their fastest receiver have a free release and full head of steam running at out SS.

Agreed. The problem isn't the personell, but the scheme itself.

I understand the whole Prevent defense, but leaving your SS against their fastest player with practically the entire field to cover is unwise.

If nothing else we should have had Rogers stick him one on one with a cushion (since we love them so much) and had Horton watch any drag routes, and help out Rogers if there was nothing across teh middle.

[Hemlock]

we didnt even give up 150 passing yards...how is the secondary the weak link again? The other team catches a few balls and suddenly D-hall sucks? cmon now,even the best defenses dont pitch a shutout every time.

Tell the offense to do thier job and we wouldnt have to play so close to the vest.

Totally agree. If the O ramps it up, this D will keep is in the Win column into post-season.

[RedskinsNation]

Bulger probably has the armstrength to make the throw to the WR in the deep middle...it would have been interesting because Horton would have had to cut over and lay off Avery and adjust while the ball was in the air to help out.....assuming the ball was perfectly thrown to the WR, if it was underthrown even the slightest amount its a pick or batted away.

Game over. We won they and they lost. More than what we could say last year when we played the Rams.

[10fttall]

Related to the Rams last play: Am I crazy or did the Skins kneeling out the clock take place much further from the end zone than the Rams were on their 4th down?

[Popeman38]

Related to the Rams last play: Am I crazy or did the Skins kneeling out the clock take place much further from the end zone than the Rams were on their 4th down?

Delay of game, offense. 5 yard penalty, still 1st down.

[wildbill1952]

As the ball went sailing toward Avery, the other receiver looked uncovered. But once the ball is thrown in a different direction (other than the receiver you're supposed to be covering) shouldn't the CB then follow the flight of the ball?

In other words, in the 1.5 seconds it took for the ball to pass between the "open" receiver and the camera, do you think the CB covering the supposedly open receiver may have started moving away from the guy he knew was not the target?

I would have to see a different camera angle to see where the coverage was at the moment Bulger threw the ball. Sorry, I can't tell from this whether he was open or not. In 1.5 seconds the "open" receiver could have moved two yards away from the defender who gave up on him to follow the ball.

[SonnyJ]

I would wager that you could dissect any defensive play, from any defense, and point out the possibilities for disaster had one or two things gone differently.

The whole field had to be defended and only 7-8 players to do it. There will be holes. Based on scouting and film study, I imagine that the coaching staff thought that was the best defense to be in. I'm really in no position to argue.

It looked to me like Horton had pretty good coverage and the DL was getting after Bulger pretty good. As TD_washingtonredskins put it, the Rams didn't really come close to threatening on that drive. I'd say the anemic offensive output is of more concern than whether Blache had every square yard of the field completely defended. :2cents:

[darrelgreenie]

In 1.5 seconds the "open" receiver could have moved two yards away from the defender who gave up on him to follow the ball.

Exactly.

The ball is thrown PAST the Rams receiver yet our CB/FS are behind him.

They're all running to the ball in flight like the should be but they are clearly behind the Rams receiver.

I'm really in no position to argue.

We don't have to argue we can discuss the play call.

It looked to me like Horton had pretty good coverage and the DL was getting after Bulger pretty good. As TD_washingtonredskins put it, the Rams didn't really come close to threatening on that drive. I'd say the anemic offensive output is of more concern than whether Blache had every square yard of the field completely defended.

I thought Horton had great coverage.

But it shouldn't have come down to Horton having to make a great play.

Imo a DB should have already been covering Avery man-to-man and Horton would be providing deep coverage a defacto double team.

HTTR!

[SonnyJ]

We don't have to argue we can discuss the play call.

That's what I was doing. I'm saying I'm in no position to argue with the play call.

I thought Horton had great coverage.

But it shouldn't have come down to Horton having to make a great play.

Imo a DB should have already been covering Avery man-to-man and Horton would be providing deep coverage a defacto double team.

HTTR!

So would you have double-covered everyone? I don't see how your suggestion is practical. If Avery takes two people, that's one less person available to cover the other receivers. If the receiver on the other side is running a go as well, than I guess you think they should have doubled that guy, too? Now we have 3-on-3, unless you want to take a rusher, in which case you run the risk of Bulger having more time to pick a receiver.

Seems to me that, given the situation, it wasn't an unreasonable play call. The rush was getting after Bulger. They only needed 10 yards for the first. It seems that your strategy would have basically conceded the first down, rather than force Bulger to make a throw, under pressure, into a tight window. Horton didn't make a "great play" - he played his assignment. It wasn't a superhuman effort on his part. He was given a role to fill on a play and he did it. Blache trusted his players to play their assignments. Wish Zorn would do the same on the offensive side of the ball.

[darrelgreenie]

So would you have double-covered everyone? I don't see how your suggestion is practical. If Avery takes two people, that's one less person available to cover the other receivers. If the receiver on the other side is running a go as well, than I guess you think they should have doubled that guy, too?

I said i would have Avery in man-to-man with a corner and Horton playing deep half.

This is a common defense known as Cover 2 man under.

The result is a defacto double team of whicher WR gets the ball thrown to them.

It is not a "double" team at the snap like you're thinking but it results in a double team when the ball is in flight.

Seems to me that, given the situation, it wasn't an unreasonable play call. The rush was getting after Bulger. They only needed 10 yards for the first. It seems that your strategy would have basically conceded the first down, rather than force Bulger to make a throw, under pressure, into a tight window.

Well since you ask:

Well since i haven't suggested anything other then i would have had the DB play Avery man-to-man i guess you're refering Cover 2 man under?

And no it wouldn't concede a short route or reduce the pass rush.

And it would force the an even tighter window.

The Rams had 4 receivers 1 RB on the field.

I would have the the receivers including the RB manned up with DBs.

I would have a 4 man rush.

And 2 Safeties in a Cover 2 shell.

Horton didn't make a "great play" - he played his assignment. It wasn't a superhuman effort on his part. He was given a role to fill on a play and he did it. Blache trusted his players to play their assignments. Wish Zorn would do the same on the offensive side of the ball.

Are you kidding?

Give the kid some credit that was a great play.

The Rams play attacked one of the weak points of the Cover 2 scheme (the is point when the short zone DB turns the WR over to the Safety)pitting their fastest WR against our SS.

Cover 2 Safeties are often beaten by that exact type of pass and if Bulger throws that ball a little further out in front of Avery....well it wouldn't have been good.

[darrelgreenie]

The Rams play attacked one of the weak points of the Cover 2 scheme (the is point when the short zone DB turns the WR over to the Safety)pitting their fastest WR against our SS.

Cover 2 Safeties are often beaten by that exact type of pass and if Bulger throws that ball a little further out in front of Avery....well it wouldn't have been good.

How about that Cover 2 know?

@3:09

http://www.nfl.com/videos/detroit-lions/09000d5d812f39a9/Lions-19-Redskins-14

3-9-WAS 48 (6:18) (Shotgun) M.Stafford pass incomplete short left to B.Johnson (C.Horton). DET-B.Johnson was injured during the play. His

return is Probable.

PENALTY on WAS-C.Horton, Defensive Pass Interference, 47 yards, enforced at WAS 48 - No Play.

[darrelgreenie]

Cover 2 strikes again!

Against the Eagles Rogers beat on 3rd and 23

[Homercles82]

Cover 2 strikes again!

Against the Eagles Rogers beat on 3rd and 23

Or Horton was beat over the top. This has already been beaten to death on the boards, why bring it up again?

[IrepDC]

You were right OP. Bad schemes putting our secondary in a bad spot again. This time we got burned.

[darrelgreenie]

Or Horton was beat over the top. This has already been beaten to death on the boards, why bring it up again?

Sure some people will blame Horton or blame Rogers but play attacked the coverage scheme again.

I'm pointing out something i believe to be flaw in the scheme, which other teams have realized and exploited.

Cover 2 is not a good defense on 3rd and long.

If you didn't want to discuss then why post?

[Saqs]

Cover 2 strikes again!

Against the Eagles Rogers beat on 3rd and 23

That was actually a hybrid cloud coverage and not cover 2. What makes it so bad is that we dropped 7 into coverage and they only sent 2 out. Rogers bit for no reason at all as he has deep 3rd responsibility here and the underneath/middle (Tryon and Horton respectively) wasnt his and was covered. Horrible job by CR. Not on Horton at all.

[darrelgreenie]

That was actually a hybrid cloud coverage and not cover 2. What makes it so bad is that we dropped 7 into coverage and they only sent 2 out. Rogers bit for no reason at all as he has deep 3rd responsibility here and the underneath/middle (Tryon and Horton respectively) wasnt his and was covered. Horrible job by CR. Not on Horton at all.

You could be right.

But i have a hard time believing Rogers or any CB would bite on an in route on 3rd and 23 unless they're playing some form of short zone responsibility.

But if Rogers did have deep 3rd and got beat on a double move is down right criminal given the down and distance.

[Saqs]

Check out this image just as DS jabs inside during the pump fake. I tried to label the player with their initials. The underneath is completely covered. There is the threat of a post but CH and even with LL biting on the fake it should be covered. No way should CR bite inside.

[darrelgreenie]

Check out this image just as DS jabs inside during the pump fake. I tried to label the player with their initials. The underneath is completely covered. There is the threat of a post but CH and even with LL biting on the fake it should be covered. No way should CR bite inside.

I hear what you're saying Sags and you could be 100% right Rogers could have deep 3rd and they could be playing some form of cloud or combo coverage.

But who is taking deep middle?

If i was Rogers coach and he got beat by a double move on deep 3rd responsibility on 3rd and 23 i would benched/strangle him. J/K

My take is a disguised Cover 2 (partially because its been Blache's tendecy on 3rd and long) with Horton disguising his deep responsibility and/or is also biting on McNabbs pump fake.

Here's why...if you look at the bottom half of the screen Hall is covering the short zone and Landry is rolling his coverage over top of Hall. (And the soft spot in the coverage is open again if McNabb zips it in there)

On the other side CR is either covering the short as per scheme or he's biting on the route despite his deep 3rd responsibility

Either way something went wrong there either with scheme or Rogers

that just can't happen.

Good discussion.

Why don't they go man-under with safety help then drop some in the hole?

[Homercles82]

But if that is the play and CR is supposedly biting on the in route then do we have CH and LF covering the middle literally 6 feet apart? Is one of them not supposed to giving over the top protection?

Is the play supposed to unbalanced coverage like that?

[Warpath11]

I hear what you're saying Sags and you could be 100% right Rogers could have deep 3rd and they could be playing some form of cloud or combo coverage.

But who is taking deep middle?

If i was Rogers coach and he got beat by a double move on deep 3rd responsibility on 3rd and 23 i would benched/strangle him. J/K

My take is a disguised Cover 2 (partially because its been Blache's tendecy on 3rd and long) with Horton disguising his deep responsibility and/or is also biting on McNabbs pump fake.

Here's why...if you look at the bottom half of the screen Hall is covering the short zone and Landry is rolling his coverage over top of Hall. (And the soft spot in the coverage is open again if McNabb zips it in there)

On the other side CR is either covering the short as per scheme or he's biting on the route despite his deep 3rd responsibility

Either way something went wrong there either with scheme or Rogers

that just can't happen.

Good discussion.

Why don't they go man-under with safety help then drop some in the hole?

The pic posted by Sags clearly show Chirs Horton way out of position. He should be where Laron Landry is on his half of the field. In the picture he is closer to our MLB rather than the deep half he is covering. Not sure if this was taken after the McNabb pump fake but he should be a further 10 yard behind where he is in that image (in line with Laron Landry).

[Homercles82]

The pic posted by Sags clearly show Chirs Horton way out of position. He should be where Laron Landry is on his half of the field. In the picture he is closer to our MLB rather than the deep half he is covering. Not sure if this was taken after the McNabb pump fake but he should be a further 10 yard behind where he is in that image (in line with Laron Landry).

This is the point I have been trying to make. Thanks for getting the words out properly for me.