Rams Receivers open on last play

[Warpath11]

This is the point I have been trying to make. Thanks for getting the words out properly for me.

Sorry i didnt see your post (we must have posted at the sametime) but we are saying the same thing.

[Saqs]

This is the play pre-snap. You can see CH pointing to the slot man which for some reason he's lined up with. JT reads him staying in to block post-snap and takes DJ underneath. CH and LF seem to split the middle post-snap as LF shades towards Macklins side. Hard to tell what exactly the call was but either way I firmly believe the fault is with CR here.

[darrelgreenie]

The pic posted by Sags clearly show Chirs Horton way out of position.

But if that is the play and CR is supposedly biting on the in route then do we have CH and LF covering the middle literally 6 feet apart? Is one of them not supposed to giving over the top protection?

Is the play supposed to unbalanced coverage like that?

Depending on the scheme Horton is out of position, which i mention in my post:

My take is a disguised Cover 2 (partially because its been Blache's tendecy on 3rd and long) with Horton disguising his deep responsibility and/or is also biting on McNabbs pump fake.

My point in this thread is that Blache relies on Cover 2 on long down and distances and doesn't make sense and puts the onus of cover the opposing teams fastest receivers 1-on-1 with the ball in the air and full head of steam.

It happened in the Rams game and Horton was able to make a play.

It happened in the Lions game and Horton got called for an PI.

He should be where Laron Landry is on his half of the field. In the picture he is closer to our MLB rather than the deep half he is covering.

If you look at Sags image the receiver on Landry side of the field is also open in the soft part of the Cover 2 scheme.

There is also the possibility that Sags is right and the coverage is a cloud or combo coverage with Rogers having deep 3rd responsibility.

[RandyHolt]

i am surprised more dont bash Blache's bend dont break defense. it seems so easy to exploit, especially since a blitz from him is so rare. And he is so quick to drop a corner into a medium zone coverage, even if there is no one there.

Thanks to everyone for helping exploit his flawed approach. I still cant believe he is so soft. Did he not see what Oakland did to Philly, what Philly did to us?

I want him gone. He is obviously never going to change. Young quarterback or vet, he guarantees opponents will get at least 16 on us.

[darrelgreenie]

Let me say this first Landry should not have bit on those routes it was inexcusable.

But, don't look now but the Brees and the Saints attacked our Cover 2 schemes effectively yet again this time they went after the safety Landry.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-orleans-saints/09000d5d814bff96/Meachem-53-yard-TD

http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-orleans-saints/09000d5d814be023/Colston-40-yard-TD

[darrelgreenie]

It was Cover 4 not Cover 2 but the safties have the same basic assignment the corners should have taken a deep 1/4 instead of a short 1/4

-Mike Martz explains how Brees and Peyton attacked our Cover 4 much better then me:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-the-coaches/09000d5d814cc475/The-Coaches-Saints-chalk-talk

The corner should have carried Meachum deeper

They were playing 2 deep safeties(1/4) instead of Landry's normal center field FS(1/3), the corners were also playing deep (1/4)

The safeties are supposed to break down hill on in breaking routes.

Peyton and Brees attacked the coverage.

Landry did what he supposed if the pass had been thrown,

the corner should have carried deeper into their 1/4 because there was no receiver in his short zone

So was Landry wrong? kinda but so was the CB

00:34-01:53

[Going Commando]

The safeties are supposed to break down hill on in breaking routes....

So was Landry wrong? kinda but so was the CB

The way Martz explains it, it almost sounds like that's a cover 3 if Landry was playing up a little.

Holy crap... what on earth was Fred Smoot doing on the play? I thought it was cover 2 because he was so far out of the play but there wasn't a soul within 25 yards of his deep zone. It looked like Meacham completely threw him on his first cut and he didn't turn his hips the right direction at all. It almost looks like he took himself out of the play on purpose.

My question is why we are so particularly vulnerable to double moves? What are we doing wrong here?

[darrelgreenie]

The way Martz explains it, it almost sounds like that's a cover 3 if Landry was playing up a little.

Holy crap... what on earth was Fred Smoot doing on the play? I thought it was cover 2 because he was so far out of the play but there wasn't a soul within 25 yards of his deep zone. It looked like Meacham completely threw him on his first cut and he didn't turn his hips the right direction at all. It almost looks like he took himself out of the play on purpose.

My question is why we are so particularly vulnerable to double moves? What are we doing wrong here?

Mike Martz called it quarters coverage or Cover 4, which is like Cover 2 for the safeties but instead of taking deep halves they take deep 1/4 and the CBs take deep 1/4 also:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://z.hubpages.com/u/1535807_f496.jpg&imgrefurl=http://hubpages.com/hub/Football-Teaching-Quarters-Coverage-to-Your-Secondary&usg=__BvLKFhYhGDNySJiGRwNqvWXfks0=&h=388&w=496&sz=30&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=LxLPRBMqRuK0nM:&tbnh=102&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dquarters%2Bcoverage%2Bfootball%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBR_en___US329%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4ADBR_en___US329&q=quarters%20coverage%20football&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

What i don't understand is why they don't go Cover 2 man?

It provides man-to-man on the WRs and provides deep coverage with 2 deep safeties.

It seems our players don't respond well to these deep zone coverages.

[Going Commando]

Mike Martz called it quarters coverage or Cover 4, which is like Cover 2 for the safeties but instead of taking deep halves they take deep 1/4 and the CBs take deep 1/4 also:

Yeah I meant that the way Landry is instructed to play up in his quarter and break on intermediate routes, it's almost like we were just playing a really deep cover 3 with Landry being the intermediate defensive back.

What i don't understand is why they don't go Cover 2 man?

It provides man-to-man on the WRs and provides deep coverage with 2 deep safeties.

That's a good question and I can't really think of an answer, particularly on that play. It's an instance where a sort of "prevent" style of defense crashed and burned. Maybe Blache didn't think Smoot could turn and run with Meacham in man coverage. But with the cushion you can give him, that's a really bad sign if Smoot can't stay with him with a safety bracket like that. Just have Smoot bump him at the line and delay the play, the pressure might get to Brees and Landry can carry Meacham deep instead of jumping the route. Hindsight is 20/20, but it seems like that would have been a better call in that instance.

It seems our players don't respond well to these deep zone coverages.

Hall actually seems to do alright in deep zone coverage. It would have been nice to have him out there Sunday. Personally, I like the cover 3 but I think I like Landry playing closer to the line. He was physical and making plays all over the field and I like to see him involved. He's catching a lot of crap for those two plays, but it's disguising what was an otherwise outstanding performance. It seems like the coaches are trying new and different things with him than they were earlier in the year. They are trying to get him interceptions and big plays which is a positive sign to me. There are going to be hiccups in any adjustment to a new role especially when you face that record setting offense. Landry catches a lot of crap but a lot of it is because fans don't really understand what's going on in these types of plays, nor do they carry realistic expectations.

[21forlyfe]

Horton has a little bit of ST soul in him!

[steve09ru]

its a good thing he didn't go to the middle of the field with that ball where landry was beat by 3 yards...

[darrelgreenie]

Yeah I meant that the way Landry is instructed to play up in his quarter and break on intermediate routes, it's almost like we were just playing a really deep cover 3 with Landry being the intermediate defensive back.

I think get your drift,

That's a good question and I can't really think of an answer, particularly on that play. It's an instance where a sort of "prevent" style of defense crashed and burned. Maybe Blache didn't think Smoot could turn and run with Meacham in man coverage. But with the cushion you can give him, that's a really bad sign if Smoot can't stay with him with a safety bracket like that. Just have Smoot bump him at the line and delay the play, the pressure might get to Brees and Landry can carry Meacham deep instead of jumping the route. Hindsight is 20/20, but it seems like that would have been a better call in that instance.

I would say its hindsight but i noticed this weeks ago from the Rams game.

Cover 2 or Cover 4 seems to be their defense of choice when they are protecting a lead.

I actually like Cover 2 it gives the safties more chances to make plays.

But since we don't use its as our primary defense were not good at it.

We're not good at the transitions and pass offs and we don't jam the receivers at the line.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that i thought we should play Cover 2 man its the best of both worlds the receivers are all covered man-to-man and if the go deep the safeties provide defacto double coverage. (And we don't end up with DB covering empty space [smoot])

And like you mention it will make the QB hold the ball longer waiting for the receivers to break open on long down and distances.

Hall actually seems to do alright in deep zone coverage. It would have been nice to have him out there Sunday

Hall is good in zone coverages.

He has a knack for finding the ball.

I just wish he was disciplined enough to commit himself to playing man coverage, i still think he could be a really good man corner but that's a different story.

Personally, I like the cover 3 but I think I like Landry playing closer to the line. He was physical and making plays all over the field and I like to see him involved.

I like our Cover 1/3 schemes but we're so vanilla with the coverages we use from it. Landry is often stuck playing deep middle where he gets very little action. But, it forces teams to nickel and dime their way down the field.

He's catching a lot of crap for those two plays, but it's disguising what was an otherwise outstanding performance. It seems like the coaches are trying new and different things with him than they were earlier in the year. They are trying to get him interceptions and big plays which is a positive sign to me. There are going to be hiccups in any adjustment to a new role especially when you face that record setting offense.

I think the Cover 2/Cover 4 scheme back-fired.

Landry would never get beat like that playing his normal deep middle FS.

And i like the idea of playing more Cover 2 to get the safeties more involved in the passing game, but i wish it were Cover 2 man.

Landry catches a lot of crap but a lot of it is because fans don't really understand what's going on in these types of plays, nor do they carry realistic expectations.

+1

[darrelgreenie]

Here is a much better overview of the Cover 4

Once again the offense attacked the weakness of the coverage:

Safeties are very susceptible to playaction

[darrelgreenie]

Even better breakdown of the second TD pass and the Smoot role in on the blown coverage.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-anatomy-of-a-play/09000d5d814d6201/WK-13-Anatomy-Brees-bombs-away

[emor09]

receivers have been open all year...

[darrelgreenie]

http://www.csnwashington.com/pages/redskins

@00:19 seconds

"...the coverages have been 2 deep and 3 deep (zone) I wish they would have been man to man....what position are we putting our guys in really need to self evaluate the coaching and also the players lets look at this thing together and see how we can get it fixed and hopefully the next four weeks we can get it fixed and get back to where we were"

I like listening to Coach Gray i'm glad he mentioned the coaching aspect of the coverage breakdown problems and the situation they're putting the players in.

I think it makes all the sense in the world to play more man-to-man scheme with deep safety like when we're in Cover 2 and in long down and distance situations.

[Going Commando]

http://www.csnwashington.com/pages/redskins

@00:19 seconds

"...the coverages have been 2 deep and 3 deep (zone) I wish they would have been man to man....what position are we putting our guys in really need to self evaluate the coaching and also the players lets look at this thing together and see how we can get it fixed and hopefully the next four weeks we can get it fixed and get back to where we were"

I like listening to Coach Gray i'm glad he mentioned the coaching aspect of the coverage breakdown problems and the situation they're putting the players in.

I think it makes all the sense in the world to play more man-to-man scheme with deep safety like when we're in Cover 2 and in long down and distance situations.

Definitely. It'll be easier on our safeties at least. Sometimes I forget this but we've got a young secondary. Rogers and Smoot are really the only senior members. I think the unit as a whole can gel just by playing together for longer. And if we can find a consistent spot for Laron, I bet he'll get a lot better next year in his fourth season. That's really when Sean started to come on as a player. I remember him struggling with a lot of the same issues Laron has in his first couple of seasons.

This will be an interesting offseason. I'd like for us to resign Reed and then look at drafting a guy like Devin Ross from Arizona or Walter Thurmond from Oregon in the 4th or 5th rounds and really put a nice cap on our secondary. We'd have four good young safeties and four good young corners on the roster after doing that.

[darrelgreenie]

Definitely. It'll be easier on our safeties at least. Sometimes I forget this but we've got a young secondary. Rogers and Smoot are really the only senior members. I think the unit as a whole can gel just by playing together for longer. And if we can find a consistent spot for Laron, I bet he'll get a lot better next year in his fourth season. That's really when Sean started to come on as a player. I remember him struggling with a lot of the same issues Laron has in his first couple of seasons.

This might sound crazy but i'm glad LaRon has had some adversity.

Sometimes players with his type of ability rely on their susperior physical ability alone.

And it might take some people hating on him to get him more focused to prove them wrong.

Like after the Atlanta game he responded with a good game against Denver and a great game against the Cowboys.

Maybe hearing the media bad-mouth his coverage ability will spark something in him?

This will be an interesting offseason. I'd like for us to resign Reed and then look at drafting a guy like Devin Ross from Arizona or Walter Thurmond from Oregon in the 4th or 5th rounds and really put a nice cap on our secondary. We'd have four good young safeties and four good young corners on the roster after doing that.

I love our safeties, Landry, Horton, Moore but especially Reed as a former coach he's the type of player you could hold up to your kids as a role model.

I like how our CBs are looking i think coach Gray (with a little help from Darrell Green) have worked wonders on Tryon and i was surprised to see Westbrook get real action and i think the Barnes kids has some real ability.

I think one of them could eventually start next year.

The writing on the wall leads me to believe that Rogers is gone.

And as much as i loved the way Rogers plays press man early in the season last year his play seemed to slip after the Steelers game and he really seems to struggle in off and zone coverage.

I like the idea of drafting another CB or even bringing , competition, imo, is an essential element to group success.